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i'm using toronto's streetcar lines (which i'm pretty sure are light rail) as a comparison point, since we have both streetcars and buses in mixed traffic and the streetcars are moving tens of thousands of people per day, right now. there are ongoing discussions about how to improve the service, either by creating dedicated rows where possible, or simply restricting vehicle traffic. since the issue here in toronto basically comes down to our completely hosed funding model for public transit, there is no money on the table for building heavy rail on these corridors. there likely never will be, at least not in my lifetime. so to improve service without incurring additional infrastructure costs we're proposing, among other things, restricting vehicle use of streets on the busiest routes. and frankly this makes sense. it sidesteps the additional costs and congestion issues caused by running buses in the same corridor, which as you've pointed out, won't run any faster than the streetcars do now tl;dr: this isn't a fantasy scenario where you can choose an optimal solution because you're developing from scratch, this is based on a real world implementation
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Jun 20, 2016 00:56
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:the capital expenditures for a heavy rail line will start to look very reasonable our budgeting and planning process is so hosed that there is a half approved plan supported by a majority of council (e.g. the suburban wards) to build a one stop subway extension to nowhere, with an optimistic projected ridership of 7300 people per hour, at peak hours. i.e. what bus routes elsewhere in the city are carrying now meanwhile the massively over capacity city core routes are getting almost nothing
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Jun 20, 2016 01:03
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:(as long as you're cool with the horrible air pollution) trolley buses my friend
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Jun 20, 2016 01:37
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lmao 
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Jun 20, 2016 01:53
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mishaq posted:trolley buses my friend trolley buses are awesome, in that they are pollution-free buses without many of the disadvantages of light rail, but i don't think anyone's gonna do a new rollout in 2016 nimbys ain't gonna stand for the sight of the catenaries.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:15
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infernal machines posted:i'm using toronto's streetcar lines (which i'm pretty sure are light rail) as a comparison point, since we have both streetcars and buses in mixed traffic and the streetcars are moving tens of thousands of people per day, right now. toronto is one of five cities on the continent that retained its trolley system in any significant measure. (six, if you include boston, who managed to retain a single trolley line) the question of light vs heavy rail on an existing trolley line is pretty rare as a policy matter infernal machines posted:tl;dr: this isn't a fantasy scenario where you can choose an optimal solution because you're developing from scratch, this is based on a real world implementation well the fantasy is a dedicated right of way once you've got that squared away, all the choices are really good. a busway, a light rail line, an old fashioned heavy rail line (catenary OR third rail) all look really good depending on need. Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 03:16
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NYC Goons, be convinced Tuesday that the BQX isn't a giant waste of money.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:18
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The Merkinman posted:NYC Goons, be convinced Tuesday that the BQX isn't a giant waste of money. the bqx is the dumbest loving thing i've ever loving seen
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Jun 20, 2016 03:19
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:well the fantasy is a dedicated right of way well sure, but we've already got the light rail, the only thing standing in the way of a dedicated row are those pesky cars on the street. it's a no-brainer really.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:31
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:trolley buses are awesome, in that they are pollution-free buses without many of the disadvantages of light rail, but i don't think anyone's gonna do a new rollout in 2016 the portions of the silver line that are dedicated ROW are trolley buses
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Jun 20, 2016 04:31
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:if your dedicated busway is so popular you actually need to start moving a million plus riders a day on a single line, that's a good problem to have please inform the green line of this reasonability thank in advance
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Jun 20, 2016 04:32
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The Merkinman posted:NYC Goons, be convinced Tuesday that the BQX isn't a giant waste of money. my fave part is where when they get called out on how they're planning to traverse the large inlet between Brooklyn and Queens the response has been *jazz hands* it's okay the plan will die when eventually the mayor gets impeached in a fundraising scandal.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:09
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Grandmaster.flv posted:radial and spoke BRT is trash but people who actually just want more/better roads for cars love to stump for it because it inevitably ends up being watered down in a way that leads to better road infrastructure along its routes but the same lovely shared right of way bus service we all know and loathe. A garbage transit option with all of the disadvantages of normal bus service with added expenses more typical of real transit. Shaggar posted:street cars are the worst possible mode of transport. all the downsides of a bus and train combined Nah you're thinking of BRT and standard buses. At least streetcars are comfortable. And hold more riders. And are predictable, if slow. Portland's streetcar got me to work reliably for years. The bus is a coin toss away from being an extra wasted half hour any time I use it at commute time, by comparison. pointsofdata posted:buses are actually great. if you run enough scheduling doesn't matter and you aim for a consistent headway. they are cheap and make the rest of your transit system more viable + plus can serve otherwise uneconomical areas. Yeah you're right the mode of transit where a half dozen vehicles will get bunched together and pass by going one direction while nothing will come for an hour going the other way is fine and great. Buses are trash and should be supplanted by literally any other transit option as soon as is feasible along routes they serve. Notorious b.s.d. posted:the per-passenger costs are very similar, but a busway will have much lower maximum capacity than a "real" subway. that's ok, most of the time. Per-passenger costs are lower in the short term but in the long run rail wins by a loooooooong shot according to every study I've ever read. Which makes it a much better choice in literally any situation where your options are dedicated busways or rail since you can assume it'll be around for decades to centuries once built.
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Jun 20, 2016 07:23
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brt owns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6ImWY4IBc
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Jun 20, 2016 08:13
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What is it that makes something "BRT" rather than just buses? Bus lanes? Live arrival times? Not being poo poo?
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Jun 20, 2016 08:53
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minivanmegafun posted:the roads were built for horses, streetcars, bicycles, and pedestrians. restrict it back to that population, problem solved. there were fears in late 19th century london that the amount of horse poo poo produced by an ever increasing number of horses would cause disaster imagine that the car is the 21st century equivalent of a horse poo poo, but instead of sitting there steaming it takes up a 1000x times the area and it moves around
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Jun 20, 2016 11:02
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Also it's probably less healthy .
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Jun 20, 2016 13:31
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pointsofdata posted:What is it that makes something "BRT" rather than just buses? Bus lanes? Live arrival times? Not being poo poo? dedicated right of way
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Jun 20, 2016 13:35
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Grandmaster.flv posted:dedicated right of way so bus lanes. Which should be standard in any city either way
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Jun 20, 2016 13:37
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:and there's no comfort advantage to laying rail, because modern buses have rubber tires instead of freaking wagon wheels. This is just plain wrong, a streetcar has a much smoother ride than a bus, hands down source: I take streetcars and buses every goddamn day of my life.
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Jun 20, 2016 14:56
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plus you get drivers like I used to have on the 506 and now on the 501 who make funny announcements as everyone is getting off at Yonge, "no, wait, please don't go, I can change, I promise!"
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Jun 20, 2016 15:35
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interesting fact: i can have a poo poo on a train. can i have a poo poo in a bus or a tram? i doubt it. not without extreme castigation from fellow users.
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Jun 20, 2016 15:37
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Bloody posted:please inform the green line of this reasonability thank in advance the B line loving sucks rear end, however this would be improved by removing a few of the stops and all of the BU students that get in the way of the train
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Jun 20, 2016 15:51
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they're allegedly removing some stops but they announced that a while ago and ive seen no action about it soooo C line might be even worse than B imo, literally a million stops every seven feet
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Jun 20, 2016 15:59
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the downeaster would rule if they got rid of all the stops between Portland and boston
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Jun 20, 2016 17:46
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the green line would be best served by being completely redone. red line has more steady volume but green line has lots of high yield days
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Jun 20, 2016 18:17
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Bloody posted:they're allegedly removing some stops but they announced that a while ago and ive seen no action about it soooo nah the B line is unequivocally worse
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Jun 20, 2016 18:21
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Chris Knight posted:plus you get drivers like I used to have on the 506 and now on the 501 who make funny announcements lol
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Jun 20, 2016 21:49
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on the topic of 24 hour transit, that actually got me in trouble recently. im so used to blackout me stumbling onto a bus or train and knowing how to get home back in chicago, but im currently in san antonio and decided to go to a pool party/bbq over in austin. long story short blackout me couldnt change back into street clothes because the party got shut down so without phone/wallet I stumbled onto the metrotrain and ended up in Leander. By the time I sobered up I was trying to get back to Austin and sure enough the local cops threw my rear end into wilco county jail. gently caress wilco county
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Jun 20, 2016 23:06
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lol
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Jun 20, 2016 23:16
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Tatsujin posted:on the topic of 24 hour transit, that actually got me in trouble recently. im so used to blackout me stumbling onto a bus or train and knowing how to get home back in chicago, but im currently in san antonio and decided to go to a pool party/bbq over in austin. long story short blackout me couldnt change back into street clothes because the party got shut down so without phone/wallet I stumbled onto the metrotrain and ended up in Leander. By the time I sobered up I was trying to get back to Austin and sure enough the local cops threw my rear end into wilco county jail. gently caress wilco county lol the south is terrible
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Jun 21, 2016 02:58
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out of curiosity, how drunk do you have to be to get booked in the south?
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Jun 21, 2016 03:03
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infernal machines posted:out of curiosity, how drunk do you have to be to get booked in the south? depends how non-white you are or how much sass you give the officer but lmao on places enforcing public intoxication laws if you aren't breaking something/harming someone
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Jun 21, 2016 03:04
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i'm assuming it involves walking naked down the center lane of a highway or something (you know, if you're of the light skinned persuasion)
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Jun 21, 2016 03:05
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pool party, so I'm guessing just swim trunks and eight hours of day drinking
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Jun 21, 2016 03:15
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Cygni posted:heres an old documentary about all the cool old transit systems in the bay area. gonna be fun having to spend billions to rebuild all this over my lifetime cause cars are bad cool
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Jun 21, 2016 05:02
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pointsofdata posted:so bus lanes. Which should be standard in any city either way no. a dedicated right of way. bus lanes are basically inexpensive trolleys. they have a dedicated place in the street, but they mix with traffic and suffer intersections and accidents. in a brt context, a dedicated right of way would be a road that exists only for buses, with few/no crossings for cars.
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Jun 21, 2016 06:09
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mishaq posted:depends how non-white you are
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Jun 21, 2016 06:11
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we built/are still building one out in the 'burbs, as a core east-west route across mississauga, they're running articulated nova buses on it, and it's pretty drat good as long as you're going between two points on the busway
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Jun 21, 2016 06:13
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infernal machines posted:out of curiosity, how drunk do you have to be to get booked in the south? that depends on if you're driving and when the last time you had a haircut/shaved and if you're wearing a collared shirt you can be missing like one of these but it'll cost you money and ofc this presupposes that you pass the paper bag test also if your parents raised you right and you say all your sirs in a nonsarcastic way this is absolutely critical but yea you meet these reqs and the south is basically a hosed up playground where you can yell at cops if you're clean cut enough
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Jun 21, 2016 07:27
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