QUILTBAG-The fate of fabulous folks in foreign fields.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > QUILTBAG-The fate of fabulous folks in foreign fields.

«‹›72 »

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Guavanaut posted:

And still carries those connotations for some people, because we still live in a society that carries a lot of those trappings. You can see why people might want an arrangement that escapes that word, right?

I admit that it's probably far too ingrained to just scrap it, but there are countries in Europe offering that alternative to all partnerships, which is a good step.

What people might those be

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:22

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 13, 2024 21:56

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Guavanaut posted:

And still carries those connotations for some people, because we still live in a society that carries a lot of those trappings. You can see why people might want an arrangement that escapes that word, right?

I admit that it's probably far too ingrained to just scrap it, but there are countries in Europe offering that alternative to all partnerships, which is a good step.

Yeah, I want you to go around an average town and tell married people that their marriage is an unequal partnership and they should change it to a civil union.

Literally The Worst posted:

What people might those be

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:23

a cartoon duck: Sep 5, 2011

For protocol marriage and civil unions aren't the same in the first place, at least in Germany. Civil unions aren't constitutionally protected so they can be pretty easily undone, and while someone can adopt their partner's child in a civil union they cannot adopt a child together. There's also some issues regarding the support of widows in civil unions as I understand it, but I'm no legal expert.

The whole thing with civil unions, at least at the start, is that they afford same-sex couples all the obligations and responsibilities of marriage, but as few of the rights as possible. The easiest and basically only way of making marriage and civil union equal is by just giving gay people the right to marriage, and the only reason not to do that is that you don't want them to be equal.

And as Perestroika already explained, it's not that everyone just decided "good enough" and that's why we stick with civil unions, it's that the CDU, the biggest party, is pretty strictly opposed to gay marriage and the SPD, the second-biggest, decided it's a cool and good move to promise gay people 100% equal rights for votes, then throw them under the bus to form a coalition with and buddy up with the CDU. Of course the LGBT community wants marriage, they didn't settle, it's just political maneuvering/clusterfucks preventing them.

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:26

Arsonist Daria: Feb 27, 2011; ^{Requiescat in pace.}

It seems like it's much more sensible to continue redefining what "marriage" means culturally than scrapping it entirely with a phrase that sounds like some lovely technicality.

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:26

I Killed GBS: Jun 2, 2011; by Lowtax

CommieGIR posted:

Yeah, I want you to go around an average town and tell married people that their marriage is an unequal partnership and they should change it to a civil union.

No offense, but you do have to be careful bringing up "average" people in discussions regarding minority groups.

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:27

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Small Frozen Thing posted:

No offense, but you do have to be careful bringing up "average" people in discussions regarding minority groups.

True, wasn't thinking ahead there.

a cartoon duck posted:

For protocol marriage and civil unions aren't the same in the first place, at least in Germany. Civil unions aren't constitutionally protected so they can be pretty easily undone, and while someone can adopt their partner's child in a civil union they cannot adopt a child together. There's also some issues regarding the support of widows in civil unions as I understand it, but I'm no legal expert.

The whole thing with civil unions, at least at the start, is that they afford same-sex couples all the obligations and responsibilities of marriage, but as few of the rights as possible. The easiest and basically only way of making marriage and civil union equal is by just giving gay people the right to marriage, and the only reason not to do that is that you don't want them to be equal.

And as Perestroika already explained, it's not that everyone just decided "good enough" and that's why we stick with civil unions, it's that the CDU, the biggest party, is pretty strictly opposed to gay marriage and the SPD, the second-biggest, decided it's a cool and good move to promise gay people 100% equal rights for votes, then throw them under the bus to form a coalition with and buddy up with the CDU. Of course the LGBT community wants marriage, they didn't settle, it's just political maneuvering/clusterfucks preventing them.

And that's the problem in the US as well, anybody arguing that Civil Unions should be seperate but equal to marriage is usually hiding the fact that:
1. They view marriage as a religious institution
2. Some states do not give equal rights to Civil Unions.
3. It would allow Evangelicals and others to propose legislation to more easily target and exclude gay partnerships.

Its a bait and switch.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 21, 2016

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:31

Pussy Cartel: Jun 26, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Guavanaut posted:

And still carries those connotations for some people, because we still live in a society that carries a lot of those trappings. You can see why people might want an arrangement that escapes that word, right?

I admit that it's probably far too ingrained to just scrap it, but there are countries in Europe offering that alternative to all partnerships, which is a good step.

We also need to get rid of monogamy. Monogamy is just such a deeply patriarchal construct, after all. Polyamory is the only truly progressive relationship structure, whereas monogamy is built entirely around controlling the sexuality of women. :smug:

# ? Jun 21, 2016 18:35

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

drat you guys are so trollable

So, my city, Milan, just elected a new mayor. The centre-left and centre-right candidates were mostly interchangeable with very similar platforms, and no good reason to pick either of the two. A good reason not to pick the centre-right candidate was his coalition, which included two far-right parties (although not the worst far-right parties: the mayoral elections of Rome had that honor) and traditional marriage supporters - and so, good for us that the centre-left candidate won

On the other hand, large cities like Milan are divided into boroughs, with their own council and president. Well mine just elected this tragedy:

He's from secessionist, xenophobic party Lega Nord, and he's all of 26 years old. No idea why he looks (?) photoshopped. His first action as president of the borough council was to refuse to fly the rainbow flag this week, purely as a show of power and disdain (political discourse in Italy now entirely consists of winners sneering at the opposition): flying the rainbow flag during pride week was one of their resolutions, they lost, we won, we will ignore their resolution, we'll vote against it (and we will win), and until we do, we'll refuse to perform this token gesture

# ? Jun 21, 2016 21:48

I Killed GBS: Jun 2, 2011; by Lowtax

hackbunny posted:

drat you guys are so trollable

The sad thing is he isn't a troll

That's just how he is

Also my condolences on your area electing a loving fascist.

# ? Jun 21, 2016 22:05

Kopijeger: Feb 14, 2010

hackbunny posted:

So, my city, Milan, just elected a new mayor. The centre-left and centre-right candidates were mostly interchangeable with very similar platforms, and no good reason to pick either of the two. A good reason not to pick the centre-right candidate was his coalition, which included two far-right parties (although not the worst far-right parties: the mayoral elections of Rome had that honor) and traditional marriage supporters - and so, good for us that the centre-left candidate won

He's from secessionist, xenophobic party Lega Nord, and he's all of 26 years old. No idea why he looks (?) photoshopped. His first action as president of the borough council was to refuse to fly the rainbow flag this week, purely as a show of power and disdain (political discourse in Italy now entirely consists of winners sneering at the opposition): flying the rainbow flag during pride week was one of their resolutions, they lost, we won, we will ignore their resolution, we'll vote against it (and we will win), and until we do, we'll refuse to perform this token gesture

I actually stayed in your city for a few days back in april, and saw posters advertising some kind of theatrical show where some dude in a black suit, black cowboy hat and a rainbow tie apparently would talk about American LGBT history "in lingua inglese con traduzione in italiano". Do you happen to know if that one drew protests from obscurantists like this pride week does?

It may not be especially relevant, but in Bologna some awfully young-looking dude, couldn't have been more than 18 or 19, offered a Lega Nord pamphlet when I walked past their spot in the street. I'm too pale and blue-eyed to look like a typical Italian, so I am not sure what he hoped to accomplish.

# ? Jun 21, 2016 22:23

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

hackbunny posted:

drat you guys are so trollable

So, my city, Milan, just elected a new mayor. The centre-left and centre-right candidates were mostly interchangeable with very similar platforms, and no good reason to pick either of the two. A good reason not to pick the centre-right candidate was his coalition, which included two far-right parties (although not the worst far-right parties: the mayoral elections of Rome had that honor) and traditional marriage supporters - and so, good for us that the centre-left candidate won

On the other hand, large cities like Milan are divided into boroughs, with their own council and president. Well mine just elected this tragedy:

He's from secessionist, xenophobic party Lega Nord, and he's all of 26 years old. No idea why he looks (?) photoshopped. His first action as president of the borough council was to refuse to fly the rainbow flag this week, purely as a show of power and disdain (political discourse in Italy now entirely consists of winners sneering at the opposition): flying the rainbow flag during pride week was one of their resolutions, they lost, we won, we will ignore their resolution, we'll vote against it (and we will win), and until we do, we'll refuse to perform this token gesture

When did J. Crew start up a xenophobic party in Italy?

# ? Jun 21, 2016 22:37

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

a cartoon duck posted:

I think "but what about SINGLE MOMS?!" was popular for a while.

What... about them?

They can get same sex married if they want to?

# ? Jun 21, 2016 22:41

hangedman1984: Jul 25, 2012

OwlFancier posted:

What... about them?

They can get same sex married if they want to?

No, the thing is if you allow gay marriage then all men will leave their wives to get gay married, turning them into single mothers...or something

# ? Jun 21, 2016 23:26

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Kopijeger posted:

I actually stayed in your city for a few days back in april, and saw posters advertising some kind of theatrical show where some dude in a black suit, black cowboy hat and a rainbow tie apparently would talk about American LGBT history "in lingua inglese con traduzione in italiano". Do you happen to know if that one drew protests from obscurantists like this pride week does?

Huh, I completely missed that, and I have a lot of friends in local cultural LGBT organizations. No, first of all in April it seems they were busy with the migrant crisis and a popular vote of confidence for the sitting government disguised as a random referendum (note: in Italy, governments are appointed by the head of state, not elected. Tricks like this are used all the time to stand in for popular elections and kinda-sorta simulate a presidential system); in the end it did not reach quorum, government supporters gloated and sneered. And gently caress you very much for making me check the archives of shrill conservative rag Libero

Plus in general they're not the kind to do protests, they're very much about the idea of the "silent majority" (they aren't even wrong). When they do protest, it's about the vaguest things and not specific people or events. I think they specifically keep it vague. See for example, the "standing sentinels" protesting without slogans, signs or banners (as if to say they are just for common sense and not any ideology), against... moral decay I guess? and in favor of the traditional family. Of course they're far from "common sense, ideology-free, concerned moderates", and when they do talk, oh boy: these are people who believe a sex education curriculum is tantamount to child grooming (and have vocally said as much for months, in response to willfully misunderstood EU guidelines for sex education), that surrogacy is rape (one of their arguments, verbatim), LGBT people are pedophiles (ditto) and morally equivalent to zoophiles (same), and that LGBT identities are pushed by an international globalist conspiracy to destroy the concept of nations itself. They idolize Putin. They are in other words 100% part of the obscurantist international

The only true protest I can think of was back in January, when they held a Family Day in Rome, basically a hetero pride parade. It would have been merely pathetic, if not for a little detail:

Originally the Pirelli headquarters, this is the seat of the regional council of Lombardy, the region Milan is the capital of. The council was and is controlled by a centre-right majority, with Lega Nord as the biggest party. I saw this poo poo every day for several days on my way back home from work

hackbunny fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jun 22, 2016

# ? Jun 22, 2016 00:14

unwantedplatypus: Sep 6, 2012

Where's Alaric when you need him?

# ? Jun 22, 2016 00:16

Klaus88: Jan 23, 2011; Violence has its own economy, therefore be thoughtful and precise in your investment

unwantedplatypus posted:

Where's Alaric when you need him?

That was Rome, not Italy. :goonsay:

# ? Jun 22, 2016 00:18

Schubalts: Nov 26, 2007; People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.

hangedman1984 posted:

No, the thing is if you allow gay marriage then all men will leave their wives to get gay married, turning them into single mothers...or something

But by the same logic, all the women will marry each other, and they won't be single anymore!

# ? Jun 22, 2016 00:19

Aleph Null: Jun 10, 2008; You look very stressed; Tortured By Flan

Schubalts posted:

But by the same logic, all the women will marry each other, and they won't be single anymore!

Everybody knows women have no sexual agency of their own!

# ? Jun 22, 2016 00:44

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

An important detail that makes Italy a special case among major world economies: while boasting a 99+% literacy rate, the functional literacy rate is barely over 50%. About half of Italian adults (mostly male), in other words, can nominally read and write, but they don't understand what they're reading or writing. It's shockingly low, the lowest among developed countries I think. Problem solving is even worse, with over two thirds of adults scoring at the lowest level. As much as I hate how "functional illiteracy" has turned into a meme to bully the opposition with (especially third party Movimento 5 Stelle, infamous catch-all for "votes against", including antivax people and other conspiracy theorists), there is data, and it isn't pretty

(Americans don't relax, you're next lowest on the ladder. Nowhere as bad as Italy though)

hackbunny fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jun 22, 2016

# ? Jun 22, 2016 01:04

a cartoon duck: Sep 5, 2011

OwlFancier posted:

What... about them?

They can get same sex married if they want to?

The idea is that we could give same-sex civil unions the same adoption rights as straight marriages, but should we really deal with that when there's some other, more important issue that requires attention, like the high number of single mothers facing poverty or already being below the poverty line?

So basically a sleight-of-hand to distract people long enough so they don't have to admit they just don't like gay people. Basically the "kids are starving in Africa" defense.

# ? Jun 22, 2016 01:46

Hollismason: Jun 30, 2007; FEEL FREE TO DISREGARD THIS POST

It is guaranteed to be lazy, ignorant, and/or uninformed.

Honestly, we're only a few years away from being able to create a genetic child of two same sex parents and after that we really I guess won't need straight people? I am unsure what happens then.

# ? Jun 22, 2016 02:31

AriadneThread: Feb 17, 2011; The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.

Hollismason posted:

Honestly, we're only a few years away from being able to create a genetic child of two same sex parents and after that we really I guess won't need straight people? I am unsure what happens then.

that's when we begin phase two

# ? Jun 22, 2016 02:51

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Guavanaut posted:

Paradoxically the old NGK was probably one of the main driving forces behind the adoption of LGBT rights, by combining homophobia with support for apartheid, the two became somewhat entwined in popular thought, so after the first full elections and the new constitution in the mid 90s there was an attitude of "yeah gently caress everything they supported." And so gay rights happened. I think that was the first time in the world that a national constitution protected against sexual orientation discrimination on the same level as race.

Oh it absolutely was. Specifically, Nelson Mandela worked with and got to know people in the gay rights groups who were allied with the ANC when it was an underground illegal organization. Even though there was still conservative opposition to homosexuality in the country, Mandela and the leaders of the ANC didn't abandon them when it came time to write the constitution.

# ? Jun 22, 2016 03:01

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

hangedman1984 posted:

No, the thing is if you allow gay marriage then all men will leave their wives to get gay married, turning them into single mothers...or something

Scalia tried to warn us. :negative:

# ? Jun 22, 2016 09:54

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

Wooten posted:

Nice meltdown

I wish SA had a filter to change that "nice meltdown" election season poo poo catchphrase into "I just shat my pants".

Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Jun 22, 2016

# ? Jun 22, 2016 10:33

Alkydere: Jun 7, 2010; Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.

hackbunny posted:

drat you guys are so trollable

So, my city, Milan, just elected a new mayor. The centre-left and centre-right candidates were mostly interchangeable with very similar platforms, and no good reason to pick either of the two. A good reason not to pick the centre-right candidate was his coalition, which included two far-right parties (although not the worst far-right parties: the mayoral elections of Rome had that honor) and traditional marriage supporters - and so, good for us that the centre-left candidate won

On the other hand, large cities like Milan are divided into boroughs, with their own council and president. Well mine just elected this tragedy:

He's from secessionist, xenophobic party Lega Nord, and he's all of 26 years old. No idea why he looks (?) photoshopped. His first action as president of the borough council was to refuse to fly the rainbow flag this week, purely as a show of power and disdain (political discourse in Italy now entirely consists of winners sneering at the opposition): flying the rainbow flag during pride week was one of their resolutions, they lost, we won, we will ignore their resolution, we'll vote against it (and we will win), and until we do, we'll refuse to perform this token gesture

God he really does look photoshopped. I have no idea how or why he does but...he does. Something about the lighting and how his eyebrows look like they're just painted on. I guess he's just too lovely for reality and falls into the uncanny valley? Also every time I read Lega Nord it takes at least two passes for my brain to parse it properly. I swear on the first pass I always read "Nega Lord" and I have no idea why my brain does that (besides it being funny)

Anyways, apologies if this isn't actually moving the discussion ahead but...geeze the guy really does look photoshopped. :stare:

# ? Jun 22, 2016 15:46

Yardbomb: Jul 11, 2011; What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

It's because he looks like that thing South Park and whatever else does where they just paste a high res head cut-out on a body, like it's not actually attached to that neck.

# ? Jun 22, 2016 19:29

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Uh, wow. This can't be true, can it?

Man claims to be Omar Mateen's ex lover, says he committed Orlando shooting for revenge

(guy looks weird because he's wearing a disguise. That's... bizarre, isn't it?)

# ? Jun 22, 2016 22:06

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

hackbunny posted:

Uh, wow. This can't be true, can it?

Man claims to be Omar Mateen's ex lover, says he committed Orlando shooting for revenge

(guy looks weird because he's wearing a disguise. That's... bizarre, isn't it?)

So if this is correct, he shot up the nightclub because he thought he might have gotten HIV from one of the guys there. That's... jesus loving christ.

This whole thing is really sad, and really terrifying.

# ? Jun 22, 2016 23:37

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

hackbunny posted:

Uh, wow. This can't be true, can it?

Man claims to be Omar Mateen's ex lover, says he committed Orlando shooting for revenge

(guy looks weird because he's wearing a disguise. That's... bizarre, isn't it?)

Doesn't make much sense given the context of his 911 call.

# ? Jun 23, 2016 00:40

Nostalgia4Infinity: Feb 27, 2007; 10,000 YEARS WASN'T ENOUGH LURKING

Also that dude's wearing a lovely disguise. My bullshit meter is pinging.

# ? Jun 23, 2016 00:43

Ball Cupper: Sep 10, 2011; ~beautiful in my own way~

What a load of toss

# ? Jun 23, 2016 01:02

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

FBI hasn't been able to corroborate any of the Mateen was gay reports.
Curiouser and curiouser.

# ? Jun 24, 2016 02:28

ComradeCosmobot: Dec 4, 2004; USPOL July

Obama just designated the Stonewall National Monument.

# ? Jun 24, 2016 17:34

Hollismason: Jun 30, 2007; FEEL FREE TO DISREGARD THIS POST

It is guaranteed to be lazy, ignorant, and/or uninformed.

ComradeCosmobot posted:

Obama just designated the Stonewall National Monument.

This made me cry.

# ? Jun 24, 2016 17:55

AriadneThread: Feb 17, 2011; The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.

A friend of mine is worried about what brexit means for LGBT protections in the UK. Does anyone have a better idea how much that's tied in with EU regulations vs UK law? As an American, I haven't the faintest idea myself as to whether there's anything to that

# ? Jun 24, 2016 18:37

Yardbomb: Jul 11, 2011; What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

AriadneThread posted:

A friend of mine is worried about what brexit means for LGBT protections in the UK.

Considering one of the most loud thoughts for leaving was "immigration" playing to the "the wrong people existing in muh country" crowd, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was not good.

# ? Jun 24, 2016 18:52

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

AriadneThread posted:

A friend of mine is worried about what brexit means for LGBT protections in the UK. Does anyone have a better idea how much that's tied in with EU regulations vs UK law? As an American, I haven't the faintest idea myself as to whether there's anything to that

Half the EU has 0 meaningful LGBT protections. Some members are even actively antagonistic. The UK happens to be a leader in LGBT rights within the union as it turns out.

Of course the parties backing brexit aren't known for being LGBT friendly.

# ? Jun 24, 2016 19:38

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

AriadneThread posted:

A friend of mine is worried about what brexit means for LGBT protections in the UK. Does anyone have a better idea how much that's tied in with EU regulations vs UK law? As an American, I haven't the faintest idea myself as to whether there's anything to that

Lol if you think the EU itself have LGBT protections, or that the members of the European Court of Human Rights (which England didn't quit, because it's not part of the EU) can't ignore it. Like Russia, which is a member, or Poland who is still ignoring the court demands that they recognize Homosexuals' basic �rights� like inheritance for married gay couples. Since it's a purely advisory court whose goal is to judge if a country break or not any human rights. There is no EU supreme court forcing anyone to follow its judgement. It also mean that all the gay marriage laws were actually passed by the national parliaments and thank to politicians actually acting and fighting for gay rights. Imagine the state of the gay rights in the US today if the democrats needed to pass them through congress.

Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jun 24, 2016

# ? Jun 24, 2016 19:55

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 13, 2024 21:56

AriadneThread: Feb 17, 2011; The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.

Toplowtech posted:

Lol if you think the EU itself have LGBT protections, or that the members of the European Court of Human Rights (which England didn't quit, because it's not part of the EU) can't ignore it. Like Russia, which is a member, or Poland who is still ignoring the court demands that they recognize Homosexuals' basic �rights� like inheritance for married gay couples. Since it's a purely advisory court whose goal is to judge if a country break or not any human rights. There is no EU supreme court forcing anyone to follow its judgement. It also mean that all the gay marriage laws were actually passed by the national parliaments and thank to politicians actually acting and fighting for gay rights. Imagine the state of the gay rights in the US today if the democrats needed to pass them through congress.

Like I said, I'm not really aware of the details in Europe, hence why I asked

# ? Jun 24, 2016 20:04

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > QUILTBAG-The fate of fabulous folks in foreign fields.

«‹›72 »