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Regarde Aduck posted:It's possible the concept of leaving the EU is, in a vacuum, a perfectly valid choice. But it is not good for the UK at this exact moment. The educated forces (the ones not just screaming because of instinctual racism) behind leave are in this for direct power (Boris will end up PM if leave wins) and deregulation. They will dismantle what is left of worker rights and very likely enter into a terrible deal with the US that removes food standards and further privitises the NHS. Brexit under a benign Labour government, or even a passive minority Conservative one, would be bearable. Under the current situation, a rampant unstable Tory government seeking a lurch to the right and the removal of social safeguards ensured by the EU, it is terrible for everyone other than the rich who won't be affected either way. I fear you are right about BoJo and the Tories. I'm not really convinced if the outcome is worse than staying in the EU. I think Bremain will win though, so it's a moot point (or Cameron finds a way to disregard/ignore the Brexit outcome).
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Jun 22, 2016 21:23
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icantfindaname posted:japan's problems are caused almost entirely by lack of free immigration
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Jun 22, 2016 21:24
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Regarde Aduck posted:It's possible the concept of leaving the EU is, in a vacuum, a perfectly valid choice. But it is not good for the UK at this exact moment. The educated forces (the ones not just screaming because of instinctual racism) behind leave are in this for direct power (Boris will end up PM if leave wins) and deregulation. They will dismantle what is left of worker rights and very likely enter into a terrible deal with the US that removes food standards and further privitises the NHS. Brexit under a benign Labour government, or even a passive minority Conservative one, would be bearable. Under the current situation, a rampant unstable Tory government seeking a lurch to the right and the removal of social safeguards ensured by the EU, it is terrible for everyone other than the rich who won't be affected either way. What food standards exactly?
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Jun 22, 2016 21:25
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Just for the sake of curiosity, what's the EU supposed to have done to remove social safeguards in Romania and Bulgaria? I don't know, Regarde Aduck said, like I quoted, that leaving EU would mean "the removal of social safeguards ensured by the EU" unless I misunderstood his post so ask him. I am not aware of any such safeguards. icantfindaname posted:laffo at suggesting japan is a well run or successful country Yes. Japan is poo poo and doing horribly. GAAAH THEY WILL DIE. They make no science and have no culture and everyone is starving and... No wait. They are doing fine. quote:the most important part of the EU, and the one UK racists have an issue with, is free movement of people This is a purely ideological metric. For example. A Nordic welfare state benefits absolutly nothing when citizens of poorer East European countries who do not have jobs arrive. (Or non-EU citizens, which was often the case last year, enabled by EU countries ignoring the Schengen accord and Dublin agreement because they "have to agree with international agreements" which they explicitly did not do i.e. let's leave these people to be someone elses problem.) Ligur fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jun 22, 2016 |
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Jun 22, 2016 21:38
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fishmech posted:What food standards exactly? I'm guessing chlor'd chicken, hormoniz'd beef and GMOs being legal.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:39
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Harsh, dude, banning unemployed Slavs and Romanians from visiting as tourists. Distinctly intrusive too. I guess as long as it's done for the right purposes...
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Jun 22, 2016 21:41
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Just for the sake of curiosity, what's the EU supposed to have done to remove social safeguards in Romania and Bulgaria? The entire EU policy wrt labor, for one
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Jun 22, 2016 21:41
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waitwhatno posted:I'm going to move to Britain and live of the dole, get free dental cleanings and spit on the pictures of the Queen, oi, me mate! And there is nothing you can do about it because you are in the EU. Hahaha! lol good luck finding an NHS dentist who's taking new patients.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:42
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Brainiac Five posted:Harsh, dude, banning unemployed Slavs and Romanians from visiting as tourists. Distinctly intrusive too. I guess as long as it's done for the right purposes... Tourists come to a country, buy services, do tours, do tourist things, and leave back home. This is good. Nobody wants to ban this. Noboby gives a poo poo anywhere if the tourist is massively rich, middle class, or unemployed, if they bring even some business.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:45
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Ligur posted:Tourists come to a country, buy services, do tours, do tourist things, and leave back home. Well then clarify that you want ethnic purity instead of using your native weasel language.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:46
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Brainiac Five posted:Well then clarify that you want ethnic purity instead of using your native weasel language. What the gently caress again? Who gives a crap about ethnic purities or ethnicities to begin with. We're obviously talking about completely different things here. Sort of sounds like you are putting thoughts and opinions in my head, ones which I don't have. I'm not going to post you are a scientologist or a satanist or whatever just because you sound like someone who might have opinions that are different to mine, please refrain from doing that.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:50
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You do realize that even though EU policy is quite neoliberal (in the social science definition of that word), that there are actually member states for whom that policy isn't neoliberal enough? Regarde Aduck was talking about the UK, where the business lobby is salivating at the idea of getting rid of the Working Time Directive. I don't think labour rights have been particularly well defended in post-Communist Eastern Europe either. So there are quite a few member states where EU employment legislation is an improvement over what would have been adopted as legislation in its absence.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:51
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Ligur posted:What the gently caress again? Who gives a crap about ethnic purities or ethnicities to begin with. We're obviously talking about completely different things here. Sort of sounds like you are putting thoughts and opinions in my head, ones which I don't have. So you want to exile all unemployed people? Your opinions keep coming out zany. Maybe you should explain what you mean at more length, because currently it's all just so much marsh gas.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:53
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Brainiac Five posted:So you want to exile all unemployed people? Your opinions keep coming out zany. Maybe you should explain what you mean at more length, because currently it's all just so much marsh gas. Why would I want to do that? Your hyperboles make no sense. At all. Nobody gives a poo poo if an unemployed Austrian comes to Sweden or Finland to perform the act of tourism. You are welcome. Swedes or Finns should have no liability to sponsor the stay of this Austrian person, of course, but otherwise, who gives a drat. Which is how it works most of the time. Exiling native citizens is impossible, of course, and should not happen: we pay them certain benefits from a common purse if they don't do well.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:59
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Ligur posted:Why would I want to do that? Your hyperboles make no sense. At all. I want you to explain your comment about how the free movement of people is bad. So far you've flailed your hands like it would allow you to fly out of this thread and away from the jerks who ask questions.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:01
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Ligur posted:Why would I want to do that? Your hyperboles make no sense. At all. What on Earth are you yakking on about?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:01
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Brainiac Five posted:I want you to explain your comment about how the free movement of people is bad. So far you've flailed your hands like it would allow you to fly out of this thread and away from the jerks who ask questions. Freedom of movement is a-ok and just fine, as long as it is not expected that the people from the country I go to pay my expenses living there. This is not a very difficult concept, I hope.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:04
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Ligur posted:Freedom of movement is a-ok and just fine, as long as it is not expected that the people from the country I go to pay my expenses living there. What are you talking about, though? Are you worried about a horde of parasites descending on fair Finland to carry off your precious dragon gold?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:06
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Ligur posted:Freedom of movement is a-ok and just fine, as long as it is not expected that the people from the country I go to pay my expenses living there. You better step off my roads then.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:06
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Ligur posted:Freedom of movement is a-ok and just fine, as long as it is not expected that the people from the country I go to pay my expenses living there. You travel in a spacesuit then, I take it? Carry all your own air, water, etc in from home?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:12
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Brainiac Five posted:What are you talking about, though? Are you worried about a horde of parasites descending on fair Finland to carry off your precious dragon gold? Simply that "freedom of movement" is not some "magic good item" by itself. It has to have a reason that is beneficial to everyone to be a good thing for everyone. Last year freedom of movement endowed 30k+ young non-EU citizen men, mostly aged 20 to 25, to Finland. From Sweden. Only 10% of them speak English, the rest do not speak any known language here. Most have no education. They all need housing and benefits to survive here. Ergo: they are not helping a small country that is going through year nine of a slow depression at all, because they are all living on benefits from the taxpayers. Ergo, free movement is not good for Finland in this point. Or do you disagree? Or what benefits do you see in this? ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:You better step off my roads then. I would never come to your country and expect that you pay for my housing, or walking on your road, so all good.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:14
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Ligur posted:I would never come to your country and expect that you pay for my housing, or walking on your road, so all good. But you do? Those things are only there by the money spent by that country's people and government.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:16
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Ligur posted:Freedom of movement is a-ok and just fine, as long as it is not expected that the people from the country I go to pay my expenses living there. I'm sure the magical EU that exists in your head where that happens would be sad to hear that, were it actually a real place that existed.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:17
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are you in favor of the complete ayn randianization of all public services in your home country as well? or is that only for the filthy untermenschen foreigners?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:18
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A good benefit from having 30000 non-Finns in the country would be helping Finland to be less racist.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:19
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That's a man who doesn't want his hard earned tax money to be spent on beggars, thieves and drifters. Finland had a really tough time the last couple of years, leave him alone already!
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Jun 22, 2016 22:22
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EUROPE THEN: The hospitality expressed by sharing bread and salt creates a bond none may break. EUROPE NOW: I wouldn't come into your house and breathe without paying you, why are these layabouts using our air for free? What happened?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:24
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YF-23 posted:I'm sure the magical EU that exists in your head where that happens would be sad to hear that, were it actually a real place that existed. Perhaps I am difficult to understand.... oooh whoops, no I'm not. As far as freedom of movement according to Schengen is just fine by me. I don't know what universe you live in, most of EU just didn't give a poo poo for a long time now. edit: Brainiac Five posted:A good benefit from having 30000 non-Finns in the country would be helping Finland to be less racist. Now this is terrible, but why do you think Finland is racist? non-Finns are good in your book it seems... :\
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Jun 22, 2016 22:25
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Ligur posted:Now this is terrible, but why do you think Finland is racist? non-Finns are good in your book it seems... :\ are you seriously pulling the you're the real racist card It sure didn't take long to go from "It's not xenophobia what are you talking about" to "unwashed foreigners are living off MY TAX DOLLARS"
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Jun 22, 2016 22:29
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tsa posted:It doesn't work this way, unfortunately. When you mismanage the economy for literal decades the recovery is neither quick nor easy. Your comment shows a fundamental misunderstanding in how economies work. Or in Greece case, didn't work. Which would be fair but I'm replying to noted economic illiterate Guassian Copula and mocking his simple view of the situation. And while you're right that Greece looks bad now but could look worse, congratulations, you've discovered 'relativity' I guess but that doesn't deal with the fact that a country running a surplus is happily watching another country's citizens suffering for the actions of a corrupt political elite. I'm well aware of why they're not helping but that doesn't absolve them unless you're a living breathing Ayn Rand true believer.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:30
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Yinlock posted:are you seriously pulling the you're the real racist card What the gently caress are you talking about  And don't even try to play that "DAHH MUHH TAX DOLLARS" poo poo on Europeans. As for Nordics we pay 50%+ on taxes on average, plus/minus something (that includes VAT) and are quite content to do so, so get the gently caress out of here.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:32
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Yinlock posted:It sure didn't take long to go from "It's not xenophobia what are you talking about" to "unwashed foreigners are living off MY TAX DOLLARS" Well he has a neo-Nazi as his avatar for a reason.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:32
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Brainiac Five posted:EUROPE THEN: The hospitality expressed by sharing bread and salt creates a bond none may break. The deal to allow mutual free travel within the EU was with the EU members. That some member countries would invite literally millions of barely checked immigrants, a large share of whom having mediocre skill levels and incompatible worldviews, was not part of the deal.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:33
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pigdog posted:How about this, it is their land, and they want to have some control over who they allow in. Or is the concept of nations and national sovereignty over territories a non-thing and/or racism in tyool 2016 already? Nation-states are the worst abominations born from the 19th century.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:36
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pigdog posted:How about this, it is their land, and they want to have some control over who they allow in. Or is the concept of nations and national sovereignty over territories a non-thing and/or racism in tyool 2016 already? If national sovereignty propagates racism, then let the hand of God tear it down, by any means. Pluck out thine own eye if it offends thee.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:37
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:Nation-states are the worst abominations born from the 19th century. Because they brought the blight of social welfare with them?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:38
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pigdog posted:That some member countries would invite literally millions of barely checked immigrants, a large share of whom having mediocre skill levels and incompatible worldviews, was not part of the deal. Bit harsh, I've met some lovely Finnish people in my time.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:38
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GaussianCopula posted:Because they brought the blight of social welfare with them? Gaaaahhh they made these things called "welfare-states", burn them.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:41
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GaussianCopula posted:Because they brought the blight of social welfare with them? Point out to me the words that woke you up from your slumber so I may not post them again.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:43
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Do Europeans think there's one American nationality or something?
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Jun 22, 2016 22:44
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