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That'd be neat, but I'm willing to bet it'll be "The Last Dragonborn has gone to hang out with vikings on the moon!" phrased a bit more boringly.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:53
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If you do run Oblivion Reloaded, be sure to get Version 4.1.0 instead of 4.2.2. The latest version broke the camera, and now it doesn't zoom in when it's supposed to (for dialog and the relevant Marksman perk). I also recommend Realistic Leveling, because Oblivion's skill point system is utter garbage.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:37
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i am tim! posted:It's not like anyone is calling you The Fox or any of the other given signs http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ghost_of_Old_Hroldan
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Jun 22, 2016 23:39
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I had forgotten about the full insinuations of that, and with the axed Nord Pantheon counting Talos as the Dragonborn God it would certainly carry that the New Shezzar could be the one doling out the Dragonborn Blessing. After all, who was creating all of those Dragonborn heroes for the Nords to form legends around in the time before Akatosh was even a god in Cyrodiil, let alone Skyrim? I will point out that, as a Dragonborn with a dragon soul, the ghost may simply be unable to recognize the difference between them. As well, even if it is Talos granting the blessing (for all we know they made the change to remove any ambiguity that it comes from Akatosh) it might not carry that it includes the Void Ghost's spirit with it. Still, it strengthens the case, definitely something to consider. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 22, 2016 23:52
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Yeah, I know what you mean because the Akatosh - Lorkhan relationship is weird and ambiguous. Because Lorkhan and Akatosh were enemies, right? I mean it's in the Creation myth that Auriel (proto-Akatosh) made Trinimac kill Lorkhan for conning the Aedra into creating Mundus. Killed Lorkhan, a god! So why do Akatosh's and Lorkhan's goals seem to align so much in Oblivion and Skyrim, if Akatosh is fundamentally an Anuic elven god and Lorkhan is the Padomaic soul of humanity? But what i am tim! is talking about is, is that the first real Dragon Break was the result of a ritual by an Alessian order called the Marukhati Selectives to purge elven aspects from the god we now know as Akatosh, and they sort of turned him into an echo of Lorkhan. The event itself is referenced in in-game books like Where Were You When the Dragon Broke? from Morrowind, and expanded on in Oblivion stuff, but it didn't become really "clear" what happened until lore from The Elder Scrolls Online, which I didn't play. If anyone is curious they can look up the dance of the Marukhati Selectives. Like everything else in TES lore there are contradictory accounts all over the place, so I do understand those that think that Skyrim Guy is an aspect of Akatosh because there is evidence on both sides, I just think the in-game case is stronger on the Shezzarine side.
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Jun 23, 2016 01:59
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It was my understanding that Lorkhan was the god of Space, just as Akatosh is the god of Time. Time is Space bitches. Also Akatosh is insane.
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Jun 23, 2016 02:54
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And what the gently caress is Sithis then?
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Jun 23, 2016 03:37
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Col. Roy Campbell posted:And what the gently caress is Sithis then? Sithis isn't.
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Jun 23, 2016 03:41
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Col. Roy Campbell posted:And what the gently caress is Sithis then? Sithis is literally change you can believe in.
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Jun 23, 2016 04:14
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Whizbang posted:Sithis is literally change you can believe in. Pretend I posted one of the "drat!" Emoticons.
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Jun 23, 2016 04:50
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i am tim! posted:That'd be neat, but I'm willing to bet it'll be "The Last Dragonborn has gone to hang out with vikings on the moon!" phrased a bit more boringly. They'll run out of dragons on Tamriel and go to hang out with the Nerevarine on Akavir.
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Jun 23, 2016 08:44
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Whizbang posted:Sithis is literally change you can believe in. 
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Jun 23, 2016 11:58
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i am tim! posted:Where do the Agent and the Eternal Champion fit in this theory, if you don't mind me asking? I never played them and didn't bother reading back up on the games. It will sound as a lame excuse but imo the devs started out treating TES like D&D so you were really just tough dudes doing the quests your DM gave you. And iirc most of those devs left before Morrowind and Oblivion, where being godlike beings really became a thing both story and gameplay wise. Just to add some not so lore heavy chat. I really want Jyggalag quests Bethesda, dude is rad.
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Jun 23, 2016 12:21
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Nasgate posted:I never played them and didn't bother reading back up on the games. It will sound as a lame excuse but imo the devs started out treating TES like D&D so you were really just tough dudes doing the quests your DM gave you. And iirc most of those devs left before Morrowind and Oblivion, where being godlike beings really became a thing both story and gameplay wise. For what it's worth, Former Bethesda Lore Writer Except When He's Still Writing For Them Mike Kirkbride has weighed in on similar conversations stating that The Prisoner is a mythical figure in and of itself, though the significance of which he left for people to figure out. It does make me wonder if the PC, even if they are tools for Aedra and Daedra, aren't their own kinda special. If you regard that we players are looking in from outside, you could argue that the Prisoner is Magnus's answer to the Shezzarine. Edit: and for what it's worth, Daggerfall introduced the lion's share of lore to the series and has you play kingmaker with a gigantic robot control totem. I can completely understand where you're coming from for Arena, since that was feature creeped into being a completely different game than what they set out to make, but I can't help but think you're selling the second game short. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 13:08
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Arena and Daggerfall were both basically built out of like Todd Howard and og bethesda devs personal D&D game, its not really until TES:A Redguard that the lore as we're familiar with is really developed. Like Daggerfall has a lot of foundation, dwarves, Numidium, the divines, etc., but Redguard is where everything distinctive really starts.
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Jun 23, 2016 17:40
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I really want a TES game where you either control the Numidium or get to fight it. Imagine climbing the Numidium Shadow of the Colossus style 
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Jun 23, 2016 18:55
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One of the pre-c0da Landfall bits has the Nerevarine return to battle Anumidium by piloting Akulakhan while people evacuate to the moon. The idea of a magic robot style Kaizu battle across Tamriel is kinda badass.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:00
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Numidium vs Liberty Prime crossover game please.
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Jun 23, 2016 19:21
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Numidium Gurren Lagann crossover game please
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Jun 23, 2016 19:36
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But a lot of the books with the nutty lore were in Daggerfall. In Arena Tamriel has no real identity but it definitely is there in Daggerfall. The crazy plot and wide ranging political and historical connections also has the proper Elder Scrolls feel to me. I played through these games on release and playing through Arena at the time it felt like a forgettable normal crpg setting where none of the names even stuck, but in Daggerfall the universe becomes a pretty significant place. Going from Daggerfall to Morrowind (I never played Redguard) I never felt any disconnect with the setting or story as both had a similar feel to me.
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Jun 23, 2016 21:46
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Yeah, I can get the criticism of Arena as an embryonic, slapdash PCRPG. That game's development cycle was such a feature-creep mess that what we ended up with was NOTHING like what they set out to make such that the final product was even at odds with the box art they purchased for the game. If we're going to work with the idea that the Elder Scrolls series solidified with Redguard/Morrowind, then Daggerfall 99% there. If you're really interested in the lore of the series, you're doing yourself a major disservice by trying to brush off Daggerfall as simply laying the foundation. EDIT: THAT SAID I don't blame a soul for not going back to play the game. The lore and intrigue in the game are solid, but the clunky game play and proceduraly generated dungeons are incredibly huge roadblocks to overcome. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 00:06
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Daggerfall is where TES begins to take shape, but I don't think anyone will argue that the modern vision of Tamriel was (as I think I state in the OP, it's been ages since I wrote it) set down in the Pocket Guide to the Empire that came with Redguard. In Daggerfall, for instance, the Imperial Province is referred to as a cosmopolitan land of all the other 8 races. Morrowind is basically a group of city-states with no Great Houses (I don't even think the Tribunal are mentioned, and given their massive importance to Morrowind it's clear that Morrowind wasn't particularly defined then). I'm not even sure if there's much differentiation between Crowns and Forebears, and half the game takes place in Hammerfell. Daggerfall establishes the foundation, but Redguard builds the house, and it's a big goddamn house. Take, for example, the section on Skyrim in the 1st Edition of the Pocket Guide. Nearly every single thing in it is touched on in Skyrim. Obviously the section on Morrowind is also equally important, but that's a bit less impressive given that Morrowind was in-development at the same time as Redguard. Sky Shadowing fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 00:39
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axolotl farmer posted:I really want a TES game where you either control the Numidium or get to fight it. Not a game, but Trainwiz's Bruce Hammar mod has you piloting it Pacific Rim-style.
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Jun 24, 2016 00:57
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I think there's a difference here between how Daggerfall definitely establishes the 'feel' of Elder Scrolls as a distinct entity separate from Arena's mushy fantasy cliches while the years of dev in between are the details being ironed out. Ha the Arena box art though. When Arena was newish I thought it was my dream game because it seemed essentially like Ultima Underworld + normal Ultima games open world but I had to do a lot of convincing that the scantily clad warrior girl on the cover didn't make it inappropriate for a kid. Arena didn't live up to that promise but I did sink a lot of hours into it crappy world and all. Now with the Steam sale ESO is on sale again so I'm dithering on whether ES lore trumps MMO crap.
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Jun 24, 2016 01:04
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Go ahead and buy it, post in the thread in the MMO HMO to get an invite to the Ebonheart Goons, and roll with us. We've got a lot of newbies lately and you'll get a helping hand if you need it and people to chat with about TES lore if you don't.
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Jun 24, 2016 01:19
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FuzzySlippers posted:Now with the Steam sale ESO is on sale again so I'm dithering on whether ES lore trumps MMO crap. I just caved and got it myself
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Jun 24, 2016 01:58
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i am tim! posted:Yeah, I can get the criticism of Arena as an embryonic, slapdash PCRPG. That game's development cycle was such a feature-creep mess that what we ended up with was NOTHING like what they set out to make such that the final product was even at odds with the box art they purchased for the game. If we're going to work with the idea that the Elder Scrolls series solidified with Redguard/Morrowind, then Daggerfall 99% there. If you're really interested in the lore of the series, you're doing yourself a major disservice by trying to brush off Daggerfall as simply laying the foundation. I tried to when Bethesda put it up for free. Screwed around a bit, beat the tutorial dungeon, blundered around town, then that was about it. Further than I got in Arena. 
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Jun 24, 2016 02:00
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I actually played Arena enough to get to about level 8, but drat it's tough to figure out where you're supposed to go. Daggerfall, though, is really rough. The first dungeon is bullshit hard, and like the first town has a ghost that will kick your poo poo in with no warning at nighttime. I felt like anything and everything in that game wants you very, very dead. Even moreso than in Morrowind, most of the people that you talk to hate your loving guts and won't give you simple information. It's comically arcane. edit: granted, it's been quite a while since I played these, so take my recollections with a few pinches of salt.
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Jun 24, 2016 02:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VADd_h_Ujzs
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Jun 24, 2016 02:40
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Naw Daggerfall is pretty opaque. You need to deal with character creation that has tons of terrible choices and the first dungeon is less tutorial and more a quick way to see how badly you screwed that up. I spent so much time as a kid rerolling over and over trying new combos there. If you manage to survive that the game doesn't really stop being hostile. Even the narratives keeps that going as games are usually full of fawning over the player about how you are the ultra special whatever but everyone in DF hates you. The plot is less saving the world and more finding a less bad choice for the regional clusterfuck like being forced to handle a messy Balkans conflict. The DF Unity project is actually going really well and I can't wait to hack it to pieces making my own changes when its a bit more complete.
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Jun 24, 2016 03:25
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Daggerfall is a hot mess of horrible gameplay and quarter implemented ideas, but there's a lot of concepts I'd like to see revisited with modern technology, actual QA(insofar as Bethesda does QA) and a big budget. Beyond rolling out the interesting TES lore, I think it introduced(but poorly developed) lots of intriguing concepts re: an RPG about existing in a fictional world and multi-path stories that modern games haven't yet developed(including Morrowind-Skyrim). The character design featured lots of dead ends and useless characteristics, but rather than "streamlining" I'd love to see an RPG that actually made use of multiple types of dialog skills based on social class, and language skills based on monsters. I love the Elder Scrolls for the lore and the world simulation and the exploration, but find the quest design and sentence writing dismal. I've never enjoyed an MMORPG. Should I try ESO? If so, why?
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Jun 24, 2016 06:23
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prometheusbound2 posted:Daggerfall is a hot mess of horrible gameplay and quarter implemented ideas, but there's a lot of concepts I'd like to see revisited with modern technology, actual QA(insofar as Bethesda does QA) and a big budget. Beyond rolling out the interesting TES lore, I think it introduced(but poorly developed) lots of intriguing concepts re: an RPG about existing in a fictional world and multi-path stories that modern games haven't yet developed(including Morrowind-Skyrim). I would love to see a modernized Daggerfall, complete with procedurally-generated 1:1 scale worlds.
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Jun 24, 2016 14:42
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Ynglaur posted:I would love to see a modernized Daggerfall, complete with procedurally-generated 1:1 scale worlds. just wait, tamriel rebuilt will get there in 2196
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Jun 24, 2016 14:59
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Mortimer posted:just wait, tamriel rebuilt will get there in 2196 Morrowind's cities are smaller than Daggerfall districts. 
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Jun 24, 2016 16:20
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prometheusbound2 posted:Daggerfall is a hot mess of horrible gameplay and quarter implemented ideas, but there's a lot of concepts I'd like to see revisited with modern technology, actual QA(insofar as Bethesda does QA) and a big budget. Beyond rolling out the interesting TES lore, I think it introduced(but poorly developed) lots of intriguing concepts re: an RPG about existing in a fictional world and multi-path stories that modern games haven't yet developed(including Morrowind-Skyrim). We all remember those heady times when games like Daggerfall and Deus Ex were pushing the limits of linearity. When games looked like they would become worlds. But the market decided to go in a much more linear and boring path, giving the illusion of choice.
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Jun 24, 2016 16:36
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That isn't exactly a bad choice. Daggerfall was vast, but fundamentally what made City A different from City B? Not much. You get the same random quests from guilds, and if fundamentally doesn't matter. When content is procedurally generated it means the content has to be relatively generic and cookie cutter. And that's a problem modern games still haven't solved- look at Elite Dangerous. It contains the whole Milky Way. But content is still an issue. If it comes to Daggerfall vs Morrowind I take Morrowind every time.
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Jun 24, 2016 16:55
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Yeah I'd much prefer a deliberate and tailored experience. It means a smaller amount of content but it usually(?) tends to be more cohesive
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Jun 24, 2016 17:12
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I thought Talos/Shor/Shezzar was just a way for Lorkhan to become a god again by being reincarnated as a human first and killing his way to godhood. Reaching heaven through violence.
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Jun 24, 2016 19:34
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Given that Lorkhan/Shezzar/Shor's goal in the creation of Mundus was to find some manner of enlightenment through the mortal condition, it'd kind of shoot the idea in the foot if it turned out that Talos was just Shor re-incarnating himself as opposed to being something of a son following in his "father's" footsteps. EDIT: And yeah, Daggerfall is kinda neat in having this huge, massive map filled with scores of cities, tons of towns and a plethora of dungeons but all it has going for it is volume. From the biggest city to the smallest town, if there isn't a fixed location related to the MSQ then the only appreciable difference is how far you have to walk between merchants. Many of whom have the exact same store layout, mind you. It's the illusion of choice once again, just presented in a different manner. EDIT2: vv On the one hand it makes sense that the greatest necromancer (and selfcentered prick to boot) would have mastered Lichdom to such a degree that he doesn't even have to sacrifice his vanity for eternal life. On the other hand, it's boring as hell. I dunno, maybe him being disappointing is kind of the point? The Warp in the West does include Mannimarco seizing the Numidium and becoming a god with a celestial body and everything while also leaving a mortal version, so maybe the mortal version we fight is supposed to be the lovely leftovers?? It was still a huge letdown. I'd still take that questline over the College of Winterhold. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 20:04
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I've fallen down the black hole of ES lore again and every time I forget how much and how insane it all is. Every time I think "more of this should be more evident in the games" I then immediately think that would kill the fun too. Like, my first ES game was Oblivion, and I did the mage's guild stuff the first time and actually used the imperial library to learn about the king of worms. I was super pumped to go fight him. Then I got there and he was a lovely normal rear end wood elf. What the gently caress.
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Jun 24, 2016 20:17
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