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Blattdorf
Aug 10, 2012

"This will be the best for both of us, Bradley."
"Meow."
Frifle should make all hunting quests available to you at once, but have higher numbers on everything. And also add a separate condition for some items that might be a bit too powerful early on if need be.

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DarkAvenger211
Jun 29, 2011

Damnit Steve, you know I'm a sucker for Back to the Future references.
I can't ever beat the Nuclear Throne boss in this game. I'm relatively good at not being hit throughout most of the game, but I barely last 10 seconds when I start that fight. Help!

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


DarkAvenger211 posted:

I can't ever beat the Nuclear Throne boss in this game. I'm relatively good at not being hit throughout most of the game, but I barely last 10 seconds when I start that fight. Help!

which one do you believe is most like a boss from nuclear throne? which boss from nuclear throne?

Snazzy Frocks
Mar 31, 2003

Scratchmo
There's at least two bosses that ride a throne... Perhaps one of those?

katkillad2
Aug 30, 2004

Awake and unreal, off to nowhere
Just got the Lead God achievement in boss rush on the back of RC Rocket and Aged Bell. By the time the Aged Bell time ran out it was practically recharged already meaning I just stunlocked the Dragun :black101:.

Speaking of, how does Nuclear Throne compare to this game? Could I possibly enjoy Nuclear Throne if I love Gungeon but disliked Binding of Issac?

scuba school sucks
Aug 30, 2012

The brilliance of my posting illuminates the forums like a jar of shining gold when all around is dark
I don't see how anybody could possibly like EtG and not like Nuclear Throne.

Venuz Patrol
Mar 27, 2011

Network Pesci posted:

I don't see how anybody could possibly like EtG and not like Nuclear Throne.

nuclear throne is incredibly stingy with ammo particularly for the fun guns, and there's much less variety in the level design, enemy encounters, and skill/item builds. i put some time into it, but i didn't get farther than the frozen wastes more than two or three times

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
Any problems that Nuclear Throne has with regards to its overall content compared to ETG is mostly counterbalanced by the fact that the game is much, much faster paced, to the point that you could conceivably beat the game in the time it would take to beat just the first floor in Gungeon.

A lot more character variety too.

I would say the biggest difference between the two games is that in NT you're trying to kill enemies and bosses before they can even react to your presence, while in Gungeon enemies will almost always be able to fire back at you while you wear them down so you need to learn how to negotiate complex bullet arrangements to survive.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jun 24, 2016

HenryEx
Mar 25, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer

Network Pesci posted:

I don't see how anybody could possibly like EtG and not like Nuclear Throne.

Hello, it's me

Owl Inspector
Sep 14, 2011

katkillad2 posted:

Just got the Lead God achievement in boss rush on the back of RC Rocket and Aged Bell. By the time the Aged Bell time ran out it was practically recharged already meaning I just stunlocked the Dragun :black101:.

Speaking of, how does Nuclear Throne compare to this game? Could I possibly enjoy Nuclear Throne if I love Gungeon but disliked Binding of Issac?

Throne is a much better game. It's faster-paced, feels better and isn't dragged down by terrible design decisions having to do with the RNG. It doesn't have as much personality as gungeon but it's perfect for short breaks when you just want some instant dopamine.

Wrist Watch
Apr 19, 2011

What?

DolphinCop posted:

nuclear throne is incredibly stingy with ammo particularly for the fun guns, and there's much less variety in the level design, enemy encounters, and skill/item builds. i put some time into it, but i didn't get farther than the frozen wastes more than two or three times

I'm not trying to debate which game is "better" because that's subjective, but I have no clue what you're talking about with half of that.

If you're just getting to the frozen city you've never actually seen any of the fun guns because that's the area where they start having a reasonable chance to drop. There's like three guns by that point capable of dropping outside of like 1/60 chance that have any ammo issues, and they all have mutations that help that not be as much of a problem. Triple machinegun and the minigun get the mutation that gives a chance to recover bullets when they hit an enemy, and the super crossbow gets a mutation that makes arrows home in and turns it into a screen clearing monster. The most ammo any other weapon consumes by that point is 2 out of your 50ish max and being low on ammo causes enemies to have a pretty high chance to drop more anyway, in addition to the guaranteed ammo crate on every level. If you're having ammo trouble outside of those three weapons the problem's with you firing wildly, not the game. The starting character even has a passive to get more ammo from all sources to help with that, or if even that isn't enough just grab a wrench and smack crows in the head with it.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Digirat posted:

Throne is a much better game. It's faster-paced, feels better and isn't dragged down by terrible design decisions having to do with the RNG. It doesn't have as much personality as gungeon but it's perfect for short breaks when you just want some instant dopamine.

The problems with the RNG that people keep talking about are hugely overstated.

Wrist Watch posted:

I'm not trying to debate which game is "better" because that's subjective, but I have no clue what you're talking about with half of that.

If you're just getting to the frozen city you've never actually seen any of the fun guns because that's the area where they start having a reasonable chance to drop. There's like three guns by that point capable of dropping outside of like 1/60 chance that have any ammo issues, and they all have mutations that help that not be as much of a problem. Triple machinegun and the minigun get the mutation that gives a chance to recover bullets when they hit an enemy, and the super crossbow gets a mutation that makes arrows home in and turns it into a screen clearing monster. The most ammo any other weapon consumes by that point is 2 out of your 50ish max and being low on ammo causes enemies to have a pretty high chance to drop more anyway, in addition to the guaranteed ammo crate on every level. If you're having ammo trouble outside of those three weapons the problem's with you firing wildly, not the game. The starting character even has a passive to get more ammo from all sources to help with that, or if even that isn't enough just grab a wrench and smack crows in the head with it.

In fairness, by the time you get around to looping the game ammo can actually be a massive hindrance because of the amount of extra firepower you need for each level. Its made worse by the fact that very late game weapons are balanced by causing them to use a shitload more ammo than earlier ones, even the melee weapons start to use ammo after a certain point.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jun 25, 2016

Waffle!
Aug 6, 2004

I Feel Pretty!


Nuclear Throne gets a lot more fun once you've unlocked Steroids, Robot, and Horror. Those are my top 3 guys.

Power of Pecota
Aug 4, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!

HenryEx posted:

Hello, it's me

I haven't tried it in a while but iirc I'm with you

Wrist Watch
Apr 19, 2011

What?

khwarezm posted:

In fairness, by the time you get around to looping the game ammo can actually be a massive hindrance because of the amount of extra firepower you need for each level. Its made worse by the fact that very late game weapons are balanced by causing them to use a shitload more ammo than earlier ones, even the melee weapons start to use ammo after a certain point.

Yeah, except that guy wasn't looping, he's not making it past frozen city. There's no way he has access to any of those weapons yet.

I disagree on how much of a hinderance ammo is once you start looping though, sure you're burning through more ammo but that's because there's way more enemies to kill who then drop ammo for you. I can give that it's annoying as hell sometimes though

Owl Inspector
Sep 14, 2011

I really cannot fathom how people have a problem with throne's ammo economy in the enter the gungeon thread of all places :psyduck:


I have close to 200 hours in that dumb pixel game about genderless sentient radiation shooting a giant throne and I've completely run out of ammo maybe 4 times, in I don't even know how many runs. In gungeon, by the time I made it to the hollow 4 times, 3 of those runs resulted in a slow, unfun loss to attrition because I was stuck with nothing but the crappy unfun starter gun and maybe some garbage like the gamma ray. It's insane how often you are starved for resources in this game, and it is entirely due to the RNG because they didn't put in a single guaranteed way to get ammo. Cheating in infinite H-bux so I could only play the gun game mode and never have to worry about having too much fun improved the game significantly

Owl Inspector fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jun 25, 2016

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
At least in Gungeon all ammo is universal and you can put it into whatever you want. I've often run into a situation in Throne where the game will give a ton of ammo for a type of gun I'm not carrying and of which there are none on the map, which is pretty annoying if you really need some for a slugger or crossbow you might be carrying. I understand its probably to try and get you to switch between weapons through the game but being starved out of a good weapon can get annoying, especially since you probably don't want to be carrying around something empty.

Of course, this is one of the reasons robot is so good.

Digirat posted:


I have close to 200 hours in that dumb pixel game about genderless sentient radiation shooting a giant throne and I've completely run out of ammo maybe 4 times, in I don't even know how many runs. In gungeon, by the time I made it to the hollow 4 times, 3 of those runs resulted in a slow, unfun loss to attrition because I was stuck with nothing but the crappy unfun starter gun and maybe some garbage like the gamma ray. It's insane how often you are starved for resources in this game, and it is entirely due to the RNG because they didn't put in a single guaranteed way to get ammo. Cheating in infinite H-bux so I could only play the gun game mode and never have to worry about having too much fun improved the game significantly

This is insane to me, did you break a mirror over a gypsy's black cat or something? I've not seen such bad ammo problems at that point in the game since they patched out the starting pistol bug.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 25, 2016

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


HenryEx posted:

Hello, it's me

:same:

nuclear throne just seemed too spastic for me. gungeon seems to reward a more methodical approach, which i am much better at, since becoming a dad and acquiring old man reflexes. none of the projectiles in gungeon move particularly fast, there's just points where there's fuckloads of them on the screen at once, but even then (like with the wallmonger's 4-deep bullet wave) your roll is actually much more effective than you'd think it would be. hell, a lot of the times i take careless hits in gungeon are when i'm trying to juke around and be too twitchy and accidentally dodge into a bullet rather than sticking to cover like i should.

Wrist Watch
Apr 19, 2011

What?

I think Nuclear Throne is one of those games that's really experience and skill based but when it clicks for you it seems so obvious that you wonder what's wrong with other people when they don't "get it".

It just makes it hard to defend the game because every time you try to address a complaint you just end up typing 300 words that can be boiled down to "play the game more and it'll make sense I promise".

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


Wrist Watch posted:

I think Nuclear Throne is one of those games that's really experience and skill based but when it clicks for you it seems so obvious that you wonder what's wrong with other people when they don't "get it".

It just makes it hard to defend the game because every time you try to address a complaint you just end up typing 300 words that can be boiled down to "play the game more and it'll make sense I promise".

that might be, but i put 60 hours into throne and made it to level 7 exactly once (with mutation) and have never ever fought the throne, so if there's a theoretical number of hours i'd need to put into it to get gud, i don't have enough free time to hit the mark.

edit: in gungeon news i got lead god and the marine's past down in the same run. muscle relaxant plus a weapon that qualifies for the bonus makes lead god a cakewalk as long as you can buy an extra blank or two for each boss.

Omnikin
May 29, 2007

Press 'E' for Medic
Excuse the shitpost but I haven't played ETG since Overwatch dropped, have I missed any cool and good updates?

Jibo
May 22, 2007

Bear Witness
College Slice

Omnikin posted:

Excuse the shitpost but I haven't played ETG since Overwatch dropped, have I missed any cool and good updates?

No (also this was me until like a week ago)

Lakbay
Dec 14, 2006

My eye...MY EYE!!!

khwarezm posted:

This is insane to me, did you break a mirror over a gypsy's black cat or something? I've not seen such bad ammo problems at that point in the game since they patched out the starting pistol bug.

Not that guy but this is me. 160 deaths since PS4 launch and I've only seen the Dragun twice with no kind of win whatsoever. After Dark Souls 3 launched I only played once every two weeks but even after the PS4 finally got the ammo bug fix I still have to conserve ammo because the game refuses to give it to me even when using a non-starter gun. It also doesn't help I see videos with cool looking guns but I keep getting the same gear run after run even with a bunch of persistent unlocks.

I'm still convinced that I'm the worst and unluckiest Gungeon player ever. I got Golden God in Isaac after 50ish hours and I looped for the first time in NT after about 45. Gungeon is the longest I've gone in a twin stick roguelite without any kind of win.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Lakbay posted:

Not that guy but this is me. 160 deaths since PS4 launch and I've only seen the Dragun twice with no kind of win whatsoever. After Dark Souls 3 launched I only played once every two weeks but even after the PS4 finally got the ammo bug fix I still have to conserve ammo because the game refuses to give it to me even when using a non-starter gun. It also doesn't help I see videos with cool looking guns but I keep getting the same gear run after run even with a bunch of persistent unlocks.

I'm still convinced that I'm the worst and unluckiest Gungeon player ever. I got Golden God in Isaac after 50ish hours and I looped for the first time in NT after about 45. Gungeon is the longest I've gone in a twin stick roguelite without any kind of win.

Ok, I've been playing a lot recently and I only run into ammo issues around the end of Bullet Hell at this point, which is something the devs have said they'll look into soon and its widely accepted that the regular drop rate cannot keep up with your needs from killing the Dragun, wading through Bullet Hell and finishing off the true final boss (with no shop at all to help you out!). But by the sounds of it you aren't there yet, are you maximizing your weapon pickups? You should be able to pick up at least one gun per floor, the first boss will always give you a weapon if you haven't already picked one up (useful when playing as the Hunter since the crossbow is alright for killing bosses). Plough most of your money into keys, especially early on, out of the two default chests on each floor one is guaranteed to have a weapon and the other an item, so if you open a chest and get a weapon but don't want another item you should save your other keys for the next floor instead of opening the other chest. When you enter a new floor each shop will be guaranteed to have a key if you haven't already picked up any keys on that floor. That includes keys dropped by bosses. That means if you want maximum keys do not pick any that pop up after you complete a room until after you've found the shop, don't worry the rat doesn't take keys. Yeah its really dumb and cheesy, but knowing that really helped me out and I can make it to the true final boss more often then not by now.

Buying keys to open chests instead of buying weapons directly from shops is more economical overall from my experience, even brown chest weapons cost more than a single key. But don't take that as an unbreakable rule, sometimes they'll be selling a really good gun that you probably won't see again like the Megahand or Polaris. The other vendors can also be useful, cursula will sell weapons like the shotgun full of love at a discount but with curse, while the Key guy will sell the AKEY-47 for three keys, buying that will totally eliminate key concerns for the rest of the run and its a pretty good weapon to boot.

I find just loading yourself up with weapons can really help avoid ammo troubles since you always have something to fall back on for those times when the game decides gently caress you you're not getting any ammo.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jun 26, 2016

Jibo
May 22, 2007

Bear Witness
College Slice
I play almost exclusively with the room drop rate script on and I still have about 1 in 3 runs end to no ammo drops. Then you have about half your runs where you get nothing but terrible guns.

It's definitely frustrating but I've been playing rogue-like-likes for a long time, you just gotta hit that restart button and keep chugging along.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Jibo posted:

I play almost exclusively with the room drop rate script on and I still have about 1 in 3 runs end to no ammo drops. Then you have about half your runs where you get nothing but terrible guns.

It's definitely frustrating but I've been playing rogue-like-likes for a long time, you just gotta hit that restart button and keep chugging along.

Ammo works on a separate drop system to everything else so the script probably might not be changing things.

Lakbay
Dec 14, 2006

My eye...MY EYE!!!

khwarezm posted:

I find just loading yourself up with weapons can really help avoid ammo troubles since you always have something to fall back on for those times when the game decides gently caress you you're not getting any ammo.

Which is like 80% of the time for me. Thanks for the tips though. That key maximizing trick is so drat unintuitive it makes me want to double dip and buy Nuclear Throne on PS4 (I only have a chromebook at the moment).

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


Jibo posted:

I play almost exclusively with the room drop rate script on and I still have about 1 in 3 runs end to no ammo drops.

loving how

like how does that even happen, with cheat engine scripts enabled

i have never used cheat engine with this game and both pre and post ammo patching, i can count the number of times i made it to floor 5+ with NO ammo on one hand that was mangled in a wood chipper accident.

are you running out of each completed room the instant the doors open, before the ammo drop has a chance to spawn in, and before you realize it the rat guy has taken the ammo? i can't imagine how this would happen without you forcing it to occur


also here's how you make the most of your keys - are you the pilot (Y/N)?

if Y - open brown chests with your lock picks. under no circumstances do you ever use a key on a brown chest.

if N - you don't open brown chests!

i know there's a non-zero chance that a brown chest might give you a blowjob and contain the winning powerball numbers and resurrect your dear gamgam back from the dead, but in reality it's just going to waste your key and give you the Lower Case r. stop opening brown chests unless you're the pilot and your lock pick is active.


when you have the chance to buy something, buy keys if you have less than 2, then buy blanks if you have less than 2, then buy items/weapons if you have a really good understanding of what is being offered to you and what you've already found. if you are wondering whether or not something is worth the money, check the wiki and try to base it off the item/weapon rarity. if the rarity of the purchase in question isn't B or better, and you don't have a really specific build or synergy already established, then you probably don't need whatever it is you were about to buy.

katkillad2
Aug 30, 2004

Awake and unreal, off to nowhere
I rarely have ammo issues, most of the time my issues are getting Plunger and Megadouser as my first two weapon drops or any other similar boring/bad weapons and I restart. I also almost always just use my starter weapon for the entirety of the first floor except for the boss. Also learning the key situation where if you never pick one up until you go to the shop, the shop will always have a key helped a ton.

Just got my plat trophy, this game is great but I need something to work towards to keep me playing so I think I'm done. Hopefully we get some sweet DLC or a sequel at some point.

HenryEx
Mar 25, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer

khwarezm posted:

Ammo works on a separate drop system to everything else so the script probably might not be changing things.

There's two drop systems:
1. Regular room drop, chosen from all pickups including ammo and money or a chestspawn. Chance increases with coolness/cleared rooms until triggered, then resets.
2. Dedicated ammo drop that can drop an amo box on room completion and is rolled completely separately. Probably has a fixed chance somewhere around 5%.

So you can get 2 ammo drops in one room, if you roll for ammo in both the first and second check (I've had that happen before).
The room drop script obviously only affects the first roll.



homeless poster posted:

if N - you don't open brown chests!

Not true. If you don't immediately need the key for another chest (duh) and you know the chest won't contain a gun (meaning, you opened the other chest on the floor and it was a gun), then open that poo poo up. There's a lot of decent poo poo in D tier passives and actives that i'd take any day over another Ice Breaker or RPG. Additionally, brown chests are the only ones outside of rainbow chests that can contain multiple things.
Really, you should only ever pass on a brown chest if it contains a gun (or if you don't have the means to know for sure).

HenryEx fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jun 27, 2016

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


HenryEx posted:

Not true. If you don't immediately need the key for another chest (duh) and you know the chest won't contain a gun (meaning, you opened the other chest on the floor and it was a gun), then open that poo poo up. There's a lot of decent poo poo in D tier passives and actives that i'd take any day over another Ice Breaker or RPG. Additionally, brown chests are the only ones outside of rainbow chests that can contain multiple things.
Really, you should only ever pass on a brown chest if it contains a gun (or if you don't have the means to know for sure).

I disagree, but the way I play gungeon isn't the way most people are playing it.

my problem with spending keys on brown chests (especially early on) is that you're sacrificing opportunity cost on lower floors, where keys start to become multi-purpose beyond just opening chests. doors seem to have a higher chance of being locked the deeper you go, including shop keeper doors or other special NPC doors, and running out of keys, or even running low on keys, means you're not just stuck with whatever crap-tier item you pulled from a brown chest on floor 1, it means you're also not getting access to more valuable resources when you probably need them. having 200 casings doesn't do dick for you if the shop keeper door is locked and you have run out of keys. that's why, in my experience, opening brown chests on 1 or 2 is really an all around waste (unless you're getting them open for free with the pilot's lock picks) because not only are you wasting the key to get Lower Case r or Poison Vial, but you're also putting yourself in a situation where you might get locked out of something important further down. I guess if someone isn't practiced enough to hit floor 5 reliably then maybe just opening every brown chest every time is fine, but when you're trying to get down to 5 or beyond to start unlocking actual cool poo poo, you don't want to waste your keys frivolously.

I'm still not bought into the idea that brown chests are even worth opening "because they might have something good". looking at the wiki list of all items you could find in a brown chest, the only two items that I could pull from a brown chest that wouldn't immediately feel like a waste would be Double Vision and Potion of Lead Skin, and the only guns that I would care about would be the Winchester Rifle and maaaaaaaaybe the Regular Shotgun. 4 things out of a little more than 60 possible isn't something that makes it worth using a key for me.

Omnikin
May 29, 2007

Press 'E' for Medic
Anyone have a good Cheat Engine/trainer link for ETG? I'm feeling like making the game more accessible

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

homeless poster posted:

I disagree, but the way I play gungeon isn't the way most people are playing it.

my problem with spending keys on brown chests (especially early on) is that you're sacrificing opportunity cost on lower floors, where keys start to become multi-purpose beyond just opening chests. doors seem to have a higher chance of being locked the deeper you go, including shop keeper doors or other special NPC doors, and running out of keys, or even running low on keys, means you're not just stuck with whatever crap-tier item you pulled from a brown chest on floor 1, it means you're also not getting access to more valuable resources when you probably need them. having 200 casings doesn't do dick for you if the shop keeper door is locked and you have run out of keys. that's why, in my experience, opening brown chests on 1 or 2 is really an all around waste (unless you're getting them open for free with the pilot's lock picks) because not only are you wasting the key to get Lower Case r or Poison Vial, but you're also putting yourself in a situation where you might get locked out of something important further down. I guess if someone isn't practiced enough to hit floor 5 reliably then maybe just opening every brown chest every time is fine, but when you're trying to get down to 5 or beyond to start unlocking actual cool poo poo, you don't want to waste your keys frivolously.

I'm still not bought into the idea that brown chests are even worth opening "because they might have something good". looking at the wiki list of all items you could find in a brown chest, the only two items that I could pull from a brown chest that wouldn't immediately feel like a waste would be Double Vision and Potion of Lead Skin, and the only guns that I would care about would be the Winchester Rifle and maaaaaaaaybe the Regular Shotgun. 4 things out of a little more than 60 possible isn't something that makes it worth using a key for me.

I think there's more good actives and passives from brown chests that people might not fully appreciate. The Cog of War is actually brilliant, if you time it right it reduces reload speed and makes the next clip a lot more powerful, when you get good with the timing it can make certain weapons much more dangerous, for example the blooper is already powerful enough but with the cog it makes it a lot faster to reload and makes its shots even more devastating. Yesterday I got it with the Elephant gun, it was so powerful that I was using that gun as my main room clearer in Bullet Hell until I ran out of ammo. I also like the potion of Gun friendship, it really helps with slow single shot weapons against the bosses. Other stuff like the lichy trigger finger, cigarettes and table tech rage are fine to have, I think there's only a few real duds you can get out of that chest like the Ruby Bracelet, Sense of Direction, Heavy Boots and Ring of Mimic Friendship. Honestly if I have already popped a weapon on one of the floor chests and I know the other one is brown I think its well worth taking the risk on it with another key.

Weapons are another matter though, I only really like getting the regular shotgun, sling and winchester rifle, though the snowballer and mailgun are alright.

If there's one thing I would change about chests its that I might shuffle around some items and qualities. I wish that they would take health up up items out of Red and Black chests and leave them only in Green and Blue. An extra heart is nice but if I pop it out of a red chest all I can think is 'that could have been a pig instead :negative:'. Additionally I was looking on the wiki and I think its crazy that they decided that the Orange is a blue chest item while the Ration is a red chest item. Just so people know, the Orange fully heals the player and gives you an extra heart container on use and increases your coolness after its been used and has a cool polygonal model. The Ration on the other hand only heals you for two hearts, though it can activate on death if you have slow reaction times, in almost every sense its objectively worse than the orange, but you get it out of a better chest? That's really dumb.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 27, 2016

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER

homeless poster posted:

which one do you believe is most like a boss from nuclear throne? which boss from nuclear throne?

He probably just posted in the wrong thread, but I feel like the Wallmonger might be a nod to the Throne fight.

Klaus Kinski
Nov 26, 2007
Der Klaus

homeless poster posted:

I disagree, but the way I play gungeon isn't the way most people are playing it.

my problem with spending keys on brown chests (especially early on) is that you're sacrificing opportunity cost on lower floors, where keys start to become multi-purpose beyond just opening chests. doors seem to have a higher chance of being locked the deeper you go, including shop keeper doors or other special NPC doors, and running out of keys, or even running low on keys, means you're not just stuck with whatever crap-tier item you pulled from a brown chest on floor 1, it means you're also not getting access to more valuable resources when you probably need them. having 200 casings doesn't do dick for you if the shop keeper door is locked and you have run out of keys. that's why, in my experience, opening brown chests on 1 or 2 is really an all around waste (unless you're getting them open for free with the pilot's lock picks) because not only are you wasting the key to get Lower Case r or Poison Vial, but you're also putting yourself in a situation where you might get locked out of something important further down. I guess if someone isn't practiced enough to hit floor 5 reliably then maybe just opening every brown chest every time is fine, but when you're trying to get down to 5 or beyond to start unlocking actual cool poo poo, you don't want to waste your keys frivolously.

I'm still not bought into the idea that brown chests are even worth opening "because they might have something good". looking at the wiki list of all items you could find in a brown chest, the only two items that I could pull from a brown chest that wouldn't immediately feel like a waste would be Double Vision and Potion of Lead Skin, and the only guns that I would care about would be the Winchester Rifle and maaaaaaaaybe the Regular Shotgun. 4 things out of a little more than 60 possible isn't something that makes it worth using a key for me.

You should never open a brown chest that has a chance to contain a gun, I maintain that the items are worth it.

Gun friendship and double vision pretty much win games on their own. Cog of battle, trigger finger and grappling hook are really good. Ammo synth, backpack, ammo belt, scope are all good. That's 9 good items out of 30ish, good enough for me if I have a spare key.

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


khwarezm posted:

If there's one thing I would change about chests its that I might shuffle around some items and qualities. I wish that they would take health up up items out of Red and Black chests and leave them only in Green and Blue. An extra heart is nice but if I pop it out of a red chest all I can think is 'that could have been a pig instead :negative:'. Additionally I was looking on the wiki and I think its crazy that they decided that the Orange is a blue chest item while the Ration is a red chest item. Just so people know, the Orange fully heals the player and gives you an extra heart container on use and increases your coolness after its been used and has a cool polygonal model. The Ration on the other hand only heals you for two hearts, though it can activate on death if you have slow reaction times, in almost every sense its objectively worse than the orange, but you get it out of a better chest? That's really dumb.

healing items are hard to balance, because you either really need them when a run went bad, or they're totally superfluous and a waste of a chest if you're doing well and not getting hit. it's too bad there's not a more direct / reliable way to trade health for other resources (keys / ammo / currency) outside of a shrine or two that you have no control over finding, because while health is amazing to find when you need it, health is less than useless to find if you're topped off. plus, it persists between rooms, but not between floors, so if I clear a whole floor while taking no damage, all those red half hearts that are sitting around in different rooms are wasted when I go down the elevator.

the orange vs ration thing comes down to health now vs having a continue. most people (unless you can no hit run the Lich with a blindfold & your directional controls reversed) probably value having the safety net of a continue over all of the other stuff the orange gives you, even though in an ideal play scenario, the orange is a superior item. in your own example, you'd rather have the pig than a heart container, so it seems like the devs have ranked the perceived value of the orange vs the ration correctly, even if some kind of mathematical analysis of the pros and cons of each might look different.

Klaus Kinski posted:

You should never open a brown chest that has a chance to contain a gun, I maintain that the items are worth it.

Gun friendship and double vision pretty much win games on their own. Cog of battle, trigger finger and grappling hook are really good. Ammo synth, backpack, ammo belt, scope are all good. That's 9 good items out of 30ish, good enough for me if I have a spare key.

meh, I still feel like there's way too many items that have duplicate or overlapping effects across the entire item pool (how many items can make you immune to poison, for example) and wasting a key on a brown chest to get a passive that does one thing poorly is still a bad idea when that key might have given you an item on a lower floor that did the same thing that the brown chest did (say poison immunity) and does some other cool poo poo too (flight or bullet time or healing or w/e).

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

homeless poster posted:

healing items are hard to balance, because you either really need them when a run went bad, or they're totally superfluous and a waste of a chest if you're doing well and not getting hit. it's too bad there's not a more direct / reliable way to trade health for other resources (keys / ammo / currency) outside of a shrine or two that you have no control over finding, because while health is amazing to find when you need it, health is less than useless to find if you're topped off. plus, it persists between rooms, but not between floors, so if I clear a whole floor while taking no damage, all those red half hearts that are sitting around in different rooms are wasted when I go down the elevator.

the orange vs ration thing comes down to health now vs having a continue. most people (unless you can no hit run the Lich with a blindfold & your directional controls reversed) probably value having the safety net of a continue over all of the other stuff the orange gives you, even though in an ideal play scenario, the orange is a superior item. in your own example, you'd rather have the pig than a heart container, so it seems like the devs have ranked the perceived value of the orange vs the ration correctly, even if some kind of mathematical analysis of the pros and cons of each might look different.


Just to clarify when I said health up items I meant health upgrades like the Heart Holster or Heart Locket. I don't really mind the good healing items like the Old Knight's Flask.

I don't really feel like the Pig and the Ration are comparable though, despite being ostensibly the same quality. The Pig fully refills all of your health upon death, and its very rare to have a situation where you'll have less than three hearts so in terms of pure health gained its already better. But in addition to that it scales beautifully in a way that the Ration doesn't since whether its one heart or nine you will always have basically double health so long as you got a pig. That alone makes it run winner similar to the clone if you're reasonably good at getting master rounds.

And I'm just not convinced that just having a continue makes the item meaningfully better, you get two hearts so its not that much health in the end, if you're hemorrhaging health in bullet hell it might only get you through a few rooms before you die for good. Personally I think its important to always be mindful of your health and I'd try to use both the Orange or Ration before I get dropped to my very last hitpoint, even if I'm not getting absolute best value out of them, so naturally not a fan of the revive in this instance. The ration is also going up against stuff like the Old Knights Flask which heals for the same amount every floor but pops from red chests too. The only healing item that's worse is the meatbun, and that's a brown chest item.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jun 28, 2016

Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy. :glomp:



Meatbun gives a nice damage upgrade, though.

Olpainless
Jun 30, 2003
... Insert something brilliantly witty here.
The one that gets me with tier items - orange and medkit are the same tier, yet orange is undeniably better.

Just had a near-perfect run. Pilot, managed to unlock Oubliette with double lockpick, and got mass shotgun on first floor for early clearing, plus a table tech money in the shop. Second shop had escape rope, three keys in the shop, and a couple of other items of not much note, apart from the Blooper. 2nd floor is where it gets brilliant. Use rope, end up next to a black market. Pick up AKEY-47, Bracket Key, and Duct-Tape throughout the floor, get Abbey opened, tape Mass and Blooper together, and the boss then gives Bundle Of Wands (which again, seems to be completely wrong tier).
Blitz through the abbey, picking up a Crutch, and Stinger as boss reward. Next floor drops Hip Holster, and to finish the ridiculousness, on the Forge manage to buy both scatter shot and explosive rounds to make the Bundle a room-destroyer whenever Debug isn't on charge. Dragon gets ripped to shreds by the super-shotgun, and then Bullet Hell goes smoothly as well, and Lich doesn't last long to stinger on the 1st and 3rd stages, and the super-shotgun on the second.



Also, the final kill count. Hail Satan.

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CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Reach for the moon!
I just started a fresh save and almost beat the game on my very first time through, but then

http://puu.sh/q49xk/d5263ab64b.webm

gently caress all video games gently caress all video games gently caress all video games

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