Why do you believe in God?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Why do you believe in God?

Mo_Steel: Mar 7, 2008; Let's Clock Into The Sunset Together; Fun Shoe

Rappaport posted:

I hope this is in the spirit of what the OP intended; this story isn't why I'm an atheist, but I think it hits a nerve about it.

Primo Levi was an Italian Jew who spent the winter of 1944-1945 as a guest of the Third Reich, with all that entailed. In the middle of that winter, there was a selektion, as the Germans called it (and the Germans certainly need no explaining!). The Germans made the prisoners wait hours, huddled in the front of the barracks that was their housing, and then run, naked, in front of what was purportedly a medical officer (and being that these were Germans, we may be sure some manner of medical degree was involved), for them to inspect the emaciated and starved prisoners. To select those who would live to work another day (again, Germans...) and who would go into the chimney.

Needless to say, mister Levi survived that selection. He also over-heard another survivor, once it had become clear who would labour another day and who would go into the chimney tomorrow, praying loudly. An elderly Jewish man, who had for some reason or another been chosen as one of the survivors. He was loudly thanking his God, over and over again, for sparing him, for letting him live. For not letting the Germans pick him, as his fellow bunk mates had been picked, to go into the chimney tomorrow. You understand? That the selected bunk mates also heard him?

Primo Levi thought, if he were God, he would spit on such a prayer.

And so would I.

His quote on the temptation to pray to escape from a situation where he had no control is good as well:

�I too entered the Lager as a nonbeliever, and as a nonbeliever I was liberated and have lived to this day. Actually, the experience of the Lager with its frightful iniquity confirmed me in my nonbelief. It has prevented me, and still prevents me, from conceiving any form of providence or transcendent justice�I must nevertheless admit that I experienced (and again only once) the temptation to yield, to seek refuge in prayer. This happened in October 1944, in the one moment in which I lucidly perceived the imminence of death�naked and compressed among my naked companions with my personal index card, I was waiting to file past the �commission� that with one glance would decide whether I should go immediately to the gas chamber or was instead strong enough to go on working. For one instance I felt the need to ask for help and asylum; then, despite my anguish, equanimity prevailed: one does not change the rules of the game at the end of the match, nor when you are losing. A prayer under these circumstances would have been not only absurd (what rights could I claim? And from whom?) but blasphemous, obscene. Laden with the greatest impiety of which a nonbeliever is capable. I rejected the temptation: I knew that otherwise we�re I to survive, I would have to be ashamed of it.�

# ? Jun 25, 2016 20:19

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:51

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Crowsbeak posted:

Now I want the Atheists here to answer the question why do you not like religion. As most of you obviously have some major problems with it or you wouldn'tpsot in these threads and declare theists to be mentally ill.

Well, since you ask: If God exists, the state of the world assures me that He is our enemy. In the interest of both optimism and a certain abstract appreciation of the idea of God as the ultimate good, my conclusion is that it's better not to believe. Or to be cheeky about it, I like God far too much to accuse Him of existing.

The best counter-argument I've seen leveled against this is that it's possible that all the suffering and scarcity and harms of excess that characterize human life are actually insignificant and that to complain about them is like a child complaining about their piano lessons. I can't actually refute this as such, I can only express how much it repulses me.

Or to put it another way:

BrandorKP posted:

We don't get to not interpret the reality we live in.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jun 25, 2016

# ? Jun 25, 2016 21:30

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Another response is to go the other direction, that God participates fully and totally in our suffering.

To quote Bonhoeffer "only a suffering God can help"

# ? Jun 26, 2016 05:22

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

BrandorKP posted:

Another response is to go the other direction, that God participates fully and totally in our suffering.

To quote Bonhoeffer "only a suffering God can help"

An omnipotent being might be able to suffer, but He can never be subject to suffering in the way we are, because nothing could compel Him to submit to it with the possible exception of His own goodness.

To assert that is to assert that it's good that we suffer, and then we're back at the same impasse.

# ? Jun 26, 2016 06:04

goatsestretchgoals: Jun 4, 2011

GAINING WEIGHT... posted:

There have been many religion threads in this subforum, but I'm hoping that with a slightly different take on it, this won't devolve into that oh-so-familiar flamewar and echo chamber we've all grown to expect.

This thread's title is not a challenge, but an invitation: rather than debate if God exists, or look at the reasons to think he does not, I want to start a discussion about why believers think he does. This is not a debate - this thread will solidly fall on the "discussion" side of the subforum's title, although if fellow believers think they can examine the nuances of others' reason to make them more robust, that is by all means permissible. I don't want to hear arguments against people's reasons based on the belief that God does not exist; let's just assume for the purpose of this thread that he does. What compels you personally to believe in God? Is it a logical argument, like the Cosmological or Ontological ones of Philosophy 101 fame? A problem that in your estimation couldn't be solved without God, like the origin of life or a basis for morality? Or is it simply your experience of him - he's shown up in your life so many times and in so many ways it would be like believing there is no air?

I'd like to encourage any respondents to go into detail, especially but not exclusively if your answer is in that latter category - how did you come up with this reason? Has it always been your reason? Have you had other reasons in the past that you've later, upon reflection, discarded as inadequate? Also, to whatever extent you are comfortable, please tell us (me) what religion you are a part of, which denomination or sect, things along those lines, just for context.

Also, if there are many reasons, discuss which are the more important and why - for instance, one might say that the Dead Sea Scrolls bolstered their faith, but without them they would still believe because of how good they feel in church, or something along those lines.

Just to hedge this off upfront, I'd like to dissuade people from the response, "I just have faith." Why do you have faith, then? Something had to convince you to have that faith initially, even if it was just being taught by your parents. Or, perhaps if this is your answer, try a slightly different route: why do you have faith in the specific God that you do? If you believe in Allah based purely on faith, how do you discern that it's Allah and not Yahweh, Vishnu, or Zeus?

Thanks all! I hope this will produce an interesting collection of ideas.

My personal reason for believing in God is that more than once, I have been confronted with a ~very important~ question that I couldn't answer on my own. I turned the conscious part of my brain off, which is hard for me because I'm that guy who overthinks everything, but once I did, the answer sort of appeared to me out of my subconscious. It wasn't a burning bush type thing, but I do genuinely believe that God gave me the answer from inside my own head.

I realize that people might respond saying that I had the answer inside my own head the whole time, but I also felt a feeling of peace when God came to me.

I have no proof obviously, but I think that's the point. I believe that God wants me to be an intelligent self supporting human, but every now and then I need a push in the right direction, and He's willing to help me out with that.

E: I'm that dick who didn't read all 11 pages before posting.

Griffen posted:

However, it can also break down into "Well, if God really existed, my friend wouldn't have been hit by that drunk driver and died." Such events are tragic indeed, but that is an example of letting our pain cloud our ability to accurately view the issue. Not to get into a tangent of free will vs omnipotence, but if God directly controlled everything we did, it kind of defeats the purpose of creating us in the first place. We are still responsible for our actions, and the consequences therein (or of other people's mistakes).

This one hosed me up for a while, but I think the easiest way to explain it is that God is your (2nd) dad who wants you to gently caress up so you understand what loving up entails. Sucks if you end up dying, but heaven exists so if you didn't gently caress up hard enough to go to hell, you're in heaven so hey good times. If you didn't die, congrats you're smarter than you were before. Comes back to my personal belief that God created a bunch of intelligent hairless monkeys and he smiles a little when we figure out how to not gently caress up.

Griffen posted:

Whereas most Christians can give an account of some moment in their life where it became real for them, for me it was a slow gradual process. I would go through life with an intellectual understanding that God loved me and would help me, but never really getting it on an emotional level. However, day by day I would lean on him a little more, tell him my troubles and how I wanted to be better, and then I before I realize it I have this feeling that someone is walking beside me. A lot of it is the understanding that our walk with God will transform us (theologians call it the process of sanctification), so we need to be willing to offer up who we are now to Him so that he can make us into something better. Much like in rock climbing when you reach the top, it can be hard to let go and trust the other person to catch you if you've not done it before. It's easy to pray "God, help me with this problem," but it is a lot harder to pray "God, in this time of trouble, help me to learn what it is I can from this to be a the man you want me to be."

I haven't gotten to the point where I can let go and assume God will fix it. I grew up Catholic but I feel that my current belief structure is more Deist at this point.

I feel that people who depend on God are using Him as a crutch and are missing the entire point of free will. If God wanted us to be dependent on him, we would be ants. God gave us brains capable of anything and everything including not believing, so doing what I feel like is essentially turning my gift off and relying in the big guy in the sky is an insult to said big guy.

goatsestretchgoals fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Jun 26, 2016

# ? Jun 26, 2016 09:31

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

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