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Lime Tonics posted:So they have to do this again? What happens if that one passes, I bet Maduro says , "nope 3rd times a charm." The CNE threw out close to 1 in 3 signatures during this first step, so getting together 4 million signatures that the CNE won't throw out on some arbitrary pretext is going to be quite a challenge. And if that goes through, the vote needs to take place before January 2017, or the Vice President will serve out the rest of the term if Maduro is recalled. So my guess is, the CNE will delay the process into 2017, then Maduro will name himself as his own Vice President.  Edit: alternatively, some puppet à la Putin-Medvedev. beer_war fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 17:40
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beer_war posted:
I get the feeling that Maduro is also a puppet, but there is no one behind him pulling the strings. It's like the Wizard of Oz, but set in some dystopian nightmare.
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Jun 25, 2016 22:58
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Saladman posted:I get the feeling that Maduro is also a puppet, but there is no one behind him pulling the strings. It's like the Wizard of Oz, but set in some dystopian nightmare. this. he was a puppet of Chavez. a dumb useful idiot who was kept around because he was a "common man" and gave their bullshit legitimacy(see anyone can get ahead even this former bus driver) but Chavez croaked and left only the puppet in charge.
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Jun 26, 2016 02:21
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do the validations meet the requirement of a certain % per state? I thought that avenue was the one persued by the PSUV
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Jun 26, 2016 03:38
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JohnGalt posted:do the validations meet the requirement of a certain % per state? I thought that avenue was the one persued by the PSUV It's unconstitutional and essentially made up, so who knows.
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Jun 26, 2016 03:57
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this. he was a puppet of Chavez. a dumb useful idiot who was kept around because he was a "common man" and gave their bullshit legitimacy(see anyone can get ahead even this former bus driver) but Chavez croaked and left only the puppet in charge. Yeah, that's not really the case. Most of the higher-ups of the Chavista government were either military men, people with little background in politics, or just plain unqualified for their positions, but that wasn't about making the government seem more accessible to the people. The truth is most of those people came into power poor and enriched themselves beyond their wildest dreams by looting the country. If you make a man rich and give him impunity to do whatever he wants, you can be sure as hell he'll say and do whatever Chavismo's latest craziness requires him to, and the only things Chavez seemed to value were blind loyalty and ruthlessness. JohnGalt posted:do the validations meet the requirement of a certain % per state? I thought that avenue was the one persued by the PSUV Yeah, the opposition managed to validate around 400,000 signatures and the minimum was around 200,000. What's more important, the process surpassed 1% of signatures verified in every State. Now we're supposed to sit back and wait until the end of July while the Electoral Council verifies those signatures, nevermind the fact that people had to validate them using their freaking fingerprints using machines the Electoral Council provided.
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Jun 26, 2016 03:58
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Oops, wrong thread, sorry
JnnyThndrs fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jun 26, 2016 |
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Jun 26, 2016 21:20
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So the government now has a verified list of all its opponents?
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Jun 27, 2016 01:38
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P-Mack posted:So the government now has a verified list of all its opponents? They already have phone books.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:48
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P-Mack posted:So the government now has a verified list of all its opponents? Yes. The last time there was a presidential recall referendum effort was in 2003-2004 against Chavez. That resulted in the infamous Tascon List, which got tons of people fired. The government now has a list of everyone who signed the petition in favour of recalling Maduro, and high-ranking PSUV officials have already been calling for public sector workers to be fired for signing the list. People were fully aware of this heading into the referendum process. Think of how desperate the situation is for people to say, "I don't care if I get fired! Where do I sign?!".
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Jun 27, 2016 02:35
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You really don't give much of a poo poo about your job if you have money, but can't find food to buy!
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Jun 27, 2016 07:46
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JohnGalt posted:do the validations meet the requirement of a certain % per state? I thought that avenue was the one persued by the PSUV Labradoodle answered this but I just want to highlight it for how absolutely insane this is. Quick recap:
The most important thing to remember about last week's validation process is that it takes place instantaneously with the magic of computers. The validation happens at the moment you scan your fingerprints. In other words, the CNE knew on Friday evening how many signatures had been validated because that's just the way the system is set up to work. Still, one of the CNE rectors (Tania D'Amelio) said today that the CNE would need 20 days to "confirm" the validation. In essence, the CNE needs 20 days to validate the validation, even though it already has validated the validation  Kafka couldn't have come up with something better if he tried. Hugoon Chavez posted:You really don't give much of a poo poo about your job if you have money, but can't find food to buy! No kidding! The family that I met in that Caribbean island last week was amazed at all the stuff in the supermarkets, and this wasn't even one of the wealthier islands.
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Jun 27, 2016 22:52
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Chuck Boone posted:Still, one of the CNE rectors (Tania D'Amelio) said today that the CNE would need 20 days to "confirm" the validation. In essence, the CNE needs 20 days to validate the validation, even though it already has validated the validation Sneak preview of the CNE's announcement on July 17: "We need another three weeks to do, uh, to check to make sure that the rectors are validated as, uh, not being CIA agents from Colombia. Yeah, it's that." E: "Looks like 50,000 more signatures are forged, they're clearly written in the American alphabet.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:40
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Now if all those hoops are finally trough, we get to.... do the actual referendum and probably even more random validation rules.
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Jun 28, 2016 08:27
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At this point the Romanian Referendum is becoming almost inevitable.
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Jun 28, 2016 10:15
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El Hefe posted:Bolivia and Nicaragua must be ashamed, awful loving governments, the blood from all the deaths from lack of medicines, riots and lootings are on their hands, whatever happens here they are as responsible as the PSUV. I hope Bolivians aren't ashamed. Taking a stand for US imperialism would go against everything the Bolivian people have achieved in the last 2 decades against the will of an endless line of white pigdog presidents in a country where 10% of the population is white. Long live Evo. Long live Bolivarian Socialism.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:27
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THE PWNER posted:Long live Bolivarian Socialism. Have you been reading the thread?
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Jun 28, 2016 14:42
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Chuck Boone posted:Have you been reading the thread? No, I know nothing about Venezuela, only Bolivia. I just didn't know what slogan to randomly throw out. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 28, 2016 14:43
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THE PWNER posted:No, I know nothing about Venezuela, only Bolivia. I just didn't know what slogan to randomly throw out. Ah. Well, Bolivarian Socialism's festering corpse has been stinking up Venezuela for at least three years. I hope Bolivia has better luck with it.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:47
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THE PWNER posted:I hope Bolivians aren't ashamed. Taking a stand for US imperialism would go against everything the Bolivian people have achieved in the last 2 decades against the will of an endless line of white pigdog presidents in a country where 10% of the population is white. Clearly Bolivarian Socialism is cool and good because it has resulted in a much higher standard of living across the board for Venezuelans, particularly the brave leaders, who are so selfless as to take on the burden of most of the Nation's wealth, denying it to the running pigdogs of capitalism and their lackey laborers. Also it is good that there is not enough food to eat because expanding waistlines are a sign of degenerate late stage collapsing market economies, where abundance leads to decaying morals
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Jun 28, 2016 15:04
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Chuck Boone posted:Ah. Well, Bolivarian Socialism's festering corpse has been stinking up Venezuela for at least three years. I hope Bolivia has better luck with it. Nah Bolivia's doing pretty good. Evo says a lot of funny things and hasn't fulfilled half of his promises but he's definitely done a whole lot better than everyone who came before. His sympathy for Chavism is much more due to the panamericanist and anti-globalisation ideals than the "where'd all our oil money go lol?" ones. The current Bolivian government is just going to take any position that seems anti-imperialist on the surface just to keep up appearances (sucks for Venezuela). Unfortunately, the Bolivian people are really really good at spontaneous mass mobilisation against neoliberalism, which has been extremely successful in the past. But it''s pretty much inevitable that one day there's going to be a huge massacre caused by multinationals privatising their basic needs and the subsequent protests, and probably a resultant civil war or something. Oh well! Hopefully not before I get to take a picture with the massive Che head statue. gobbagool posted:Clearly Bolivarian Socialism is cool and good because it has resulted in a much higher standard of living across the board for Venezuelans, particularly the brave leaders, who are so selfless as to take on the burden of most of the Nation's wealth, denying it to the running pigdogs of capitalism and their lackey laborers. Also it is good that there is not enough food to eat because expanding waistlines are a sign of degenerate late stage collapsing market economies, where abundance leads to decaying morals Why's it called Bolivarian Socialism? Bolivar was definitely a Panamericanist but what's the rest come from? Also, agreed completely 100%.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:15
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THE PWNER posted:
Of course you agree 100%, it's much better that people starve to death or die of easily treatable diseases, as long as the correct opinions were expressed at a national level.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:21
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gobbagool posted:Of course you agree 100%, it's much better that people starve to death or die of easily treatable diseases, as long as the correct opinions were expressed at a national level. I'm the guy complaining on the internet about the NAP being violated when starving people steal food from small business owners who refuse to sell it to them
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Jun 28, 2016 16:15
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THE PWNER posted:I'm the guy complaining on the internet about the NAP being violated when starving people steal food from small business owners who refuse to sell it to them So... Borneo Jimmy, how have you been, buddy?
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Jun 28, 2016 18:28
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THE PWNER posted:I'm the guy complaining on the internet about the NAP being violated when starving people steal food from small business owners who refuse to sell it to them They can't sell it to them because some useless loving bureaucrat has dictated to them that they can only buy it during their assigned day of the week, at a particular price and only up to a limited amount after providing their national ID cards and fingerprints, a process that takes 5 minutes per person, causing hundreds of people to have to wait in line outside tiny establishments. You wanna see it for yourself? I'm leaving this hellhole in a week, I can rent you my room.
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Jun 28, 2016 18:34
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fnox posted:They can't sell it to them because some useless loving bureaucrat has dictated to them that they can only buy it during their assigned day of the week, at a particular price and only up to a limited amount after providing their national ID cards and fingerprints, a process that takes 5 minutes per person, causing hundreds of people to have to wait in line outside tiny establishments. No, you see, the Pwner certainly knows better than you do about your struggles because you've been infested with the capitalist pigdog disease of 'wanting to eat'
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Jun 28, 2016 18:37
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The oil worker's union (FUTPV) released some data today showing that PDVSA is producing just 2.4 million barrels of oil per day, which is a full one million barrels less than in 2008. The head of the union, Eudis Girot, said that Venezuela's oil industry is in "a state of abandon", and he directly blamed the head of PDVSA, Eulogio del Pino, for "bleeding the country" through his mismanagement and corruption at the oil company. Reminder that Venezuela gets something like 95% of its income through oil sales. PDVSA is being run into the ground by corrupt an inept officials, and the rest of the country is suffering as a direct result of this. The only economic war Venezuela is a target of is the one being waged against it by the PSUV.
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Jun 28, 2016 19:00
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Chuck Boone posted:The oil worker's union (FUTPV) released some data today showing that PDVSA is producing just 2.4 million barrels of oil per day, which is a full one million barrels less than in 2008. I'm not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but oil production fell by an astounding 120,000 barrels in freaking May alone (http://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuela-oil-production-drops-sharply-in-may-1465868354). This, of course, can be traced back to Halliburton and Schlumberger's reduction of operations in the country but that figure is still ridiculous. Update: Found a more recent article by Bloomberg covering the decline in oil outputs (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/venezuela-s-oil-output-decline-accelerates-as-drillers-go-unpaid). According to them, the drop in May corresponded with the cease of operations of 10 oil rights that month, leaving us with a grand total of 59. The forecast is that production will continue to drop to 2.1 million barrels per day by the end of the year. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 19:03
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The Centro de Documentacion y Analisis Social de la Federacion Venezolana de Maestros has released its monthly update on the cost of food in the country. In the month of May, the price of the nutritious food basket for a family of five was Bs. 226,462.17. Since the monthly minimum wage in the country is Bs. 15,051.15, a family of five needed to earn 15 times the minimum wage in order to be able to afford the amount of food needed to maintain a healthy diet. The jump in May represents an increase in food prices of 817.1% since May 2015, and an increase of 22.5% from April. The same report found that the difference between regulated prices in supermarkets (which continue to be critically scarce) and the same goods sold on the street averages 2,885.5%.
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Jun 28, 2016 23:29
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THE PWNER posted:I'm the guy complaining on the internet about the NAP being violated when starving people steal food from small business owners who refuse to sell it to them As the world's leading producer of starving people, Venezuela is compatible with your interests
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Jun 29, 2016 02:01
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/venezuela-govt-may-seek-dissolve-congress-spokesman-165529540.html A government spokesman has said that they are considering asking the courts to dissolve the legislature. If they try to go through with it, would that be enough to spark open rebellion? My sense from the thread is that a lot of hopes are being pinned on the referendum, and for now those hopes are acting as a release valve.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:07
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Thank you friends for getting rid of my furry sex title.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:43
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But isn't it a general consensus that Chavez had a broad popular mandate in the beginning for his policies? I'd be interested in hearing latinogoons opinions on what was the definate turning point in the venezuelan experiment where it transformed from a progressive popular project to a regressive autocracy?
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Jun 29, 2016 02:58
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Friendly Humour posted:But isn't it a general consensus that Chavez had a broad popular mandate in the beginning for his policies? I'd be interested in hearing latinogoons opinions on what was the definate turning point in the venezuelan experiment where it transformed from a progressive popular project to a regressive autocracy? "Socialism"
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Jun 29, 2016 11:45
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Left or Right when given too much power rarely goes well, problem being the constitution that chavez made and the various ammendments to it, one of them which made it so he could basically be president for life, i have yet to understand why venezuelans thought it was a good idea to remove the term limit and vote yes to it on the referendum that happen for that.
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Jun 29, 2016 12:21
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Friendly Humour posted:But isn't it a general consensus that Chavez had a broad popular mandate in the beginning for his policies? I'd be interested in hearing latinogoons opinions on what was the definate turning point in the venezuelan experiment where it transformed from a progressive popular project to a regressive autocracy? I'd put a big asterisk beside "transformed from a progressive popular project" and add that I think that Chavez's election in 1998 was also the result of an overwhelming level of discontent with the political status quo at the time. Since the 1950s, Venezuela's political order operated on something called puntofijismo. The result of puntofijismo was the creation of a two-party system, where each party took turns running the country. By the late 1990s, people were fed up with the system because it appeared to them as if the two parties were just taking turns messing up the country trying to outdo each other. Chavez presented himself as an alternative to a way of doing things that seemed to be fundamentally broken. To answer your question, I think that the definite turning point in Venezuela that saw Chavez creeping further and further away from democracy and the rule of law was the 2002 coup. When Chavez came back to power, I think that he realized that his position wasn't as solid as he'd thought it was, and this is when we start to see chavismo really try to entrench itself in other branches of government. This process arguably started with the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled in favour of some army officers that had allegedly played a role in the coup in 2002, and in 2003 Chavez called the Supreme Court a "putrefied cyst" that put the whole Bolivarian Revolution in danger. It was from this point on that we saw the dismantling of judicial independence in Venezuela, to the point where today the Supreme Court is universally understood to be a branch of the executive office. In short: the 2002 coup made Chavez realize that as long as other branches of government weren't chavista, they posed a threat to his power. It was then that he began the process of rectifying this problem, resulting in a move towards authoritarianism. EDIT: I dont know posted:https://www.yahoo.com/news/venezuela-govt-may-seek-dissolve-congress-spokesman-165529540.html Henry Ramos Allup (the president of the National Assembly) has been saying for a few weeks now that something like this was coming. I believe that this is the first time that we hear someone from the government side confirm it. It's important to note that the guy who said this isn't in the PSUV: he's the head of the PODEMOS party, which is allied with the PSUV. The PSUV and its allied parties call themselves the Gran Polo Patriotico. I'm not entirely convinced that something will come of this guy's comments. I can't count the number of times Maduro or someone in the PSUV said that they were going to have someone arrested, or that they were going to present evidence that X was about to happen, and then... they just didn't. I'll believe it when I see it. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 14:31
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Chuck Boone posted:I'd put a big asterisk beside "transformed from a progressive popular project" and add that I think that Chavez's election in 1998 was also the result of an overwhelming level of discontent with the political status quo at the time. Since the 1950s, Venezuela's political order operated on something called puntofijismo. The result of puntofijismo was the creation of a two-party system, where each party took turns running the country. By the late 1990s, people were fed up with the system because it appeared to them as if the two parties were just taking turns messing up the country trying to outdo each other. Chavez presented himself as an alternative to a way of doing things that seemed to be fundamentally broken. But, wasn't Chavez right in thinking that the supreme court was hostile towards him? I mean, we just saw what happened in Egypt and Brazil as a result of the Courts turning against the government. I can't help but to conclude from you pointing to the attempted coup against him as the turning point, that the failure was a seemingly human one.
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Jun 29, 2016 14:46
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Friendly Humour posted:But, wasn't Chavez right in thinking that the supreme court was hostile towards him? I mean, we just saw what happened in Egypt and Brazil as a result of the Courts turning against the government. I can't help but to conclude from you pointing to the attempted coup against him as the turning point, that the failure was a seemingly human one. I were Chavez in 2002 I would have been upset by that decision as well. But there's a difference between "the Supreme Court is hostile towards Chavez" and "the Supreme Court has reached a decision based on the principles of justice and the rule of law, and that decision happens to go against what the President would have liked to have seen". I don't know enough about the case to tell you which of these two options it represented, but I think that it's very dangerous for the head of any country to believe that the Supreme Court is hostile towards him or her because it ruled a certain way. The alternative to that is exactly what we have in Venezuela today: a Supreme Court that rules exclusively in favour of the government. Is such a Supreme Court not hostile towards the citizens of its country and the rule of law? It's also important to note that the very same Supreme Court that ruled in favour of those army officers in 2002 also acted in favour of the Chavez government in a number of really important cases between 1998-2002. For example, the TSJ turned a blind eye to some procedural violations the National Assembly (which was chavista) committed in appointing TSJ magistrates and high-profile government officials by decree instead of through elected committees, as outlined in the constitution (this happened in 2000, if I remember correctly). In other words, I'm not sure that it's fair to say that the Supreme Court was hostile towards Chavez. Some of its decisions favored the government, and others didn't. Whether or not Chavez took the decisions that went against him as attacks on his power is one thing; and whether that gave him the right to demolish judicial independence is another discussion.
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Jun 29, 2016 15:18
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Chuck Boone posted:I were Chavez in 2002 I would have been upset by that decision as well. But there's a difference between "the Supreme Court is hostile towards Chavez" and "the Supreme Court has reached a decision based on the principles of justice and the rule of law, and that decision happens to go against what the President would have liked to have seen" If Venezuela was, say an average European country I would believe that, but even if it makes me racist, I would say that Venezuela isn't that kind of country.
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Jun 29, 2016 15:22
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Friendly Humour posted:If Venezuela was, say an average European country I would believe that, but even if it makes me racist, I would say that Venezuela isn't that kind of country. I'm not sure that I understand. Are you saying that this particular decision involving the army officers was a sign that the Supreme Court was hostile towards Chavez?
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Jun 29, 2016 15:29
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