|
silvergoose posted:I think "has the deepest discount" implies there was a discount to begin with, but I suppose it's not strictly so. I made the middle $40 option into a "discount" by raising the price of the $20 option to $30. Every single fast food restaurant and electronics store does it. There is a reason that an 8GB ipod costs $180 but the 64GB model costs $200 (I don't buy ipods, I know this is no longer accurate). $200 might be a bad deal for an Ipod, but you don't know that. The only information you have in front of you is the prices, and next to the 8GB model it seems like a bargain upgrade.
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 03:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 00:30 |
|
|
Fat Turkey posted:This reply is really late but here goes anyway. To the person asking about Tabletop Simulator , I think it gets a somewhat unfair slating here based on people having prior experience with VASSAL and people they already play with. I didn't have any of that and found VASSAL barely playable, whereas I've gotten a lot out of TTS. This has been my experience as well, enjoying a game on vassal means fighting the interface the entire time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 03:27
|
|
|
Why does everyone hate Sirlin so much? I have seen a few mildly dickish things (I remember his marketing for Puzzle Strike was basically "so Dominion sucks, but I fixed it for you. You're welcome") but is there any one particular thing he did that results in so much ire?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 03:30
|
|
|
Sailor Viy posted:Why does everyone hate Sirlin so much? I have seen a few mildly dickish things (I remember his marketing for Puzzle Strike was basically "so Dominion sucks, but I fixed it for you. You're welcome") but is there any one particular thing he did that results in so much ire? People are obviously jealous of his talent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 03:37
|
|
|
Sailor Viy posted:Why does everyone hate Sirlin so much? I have seen a few mildly dickish things (I remember his marketing for Puzzle Strike was basically "so Dominion sucks, but I fixed it for you. You're welcome") but is there any one particular thing he did that results in so much ire? Dude can't take criticism and gets really smug and annoying when somebody argues with him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 03:51
|
|
|
Sailor Viy posted:Why does everyone hate Sirlin so much? I have seen a few mildly dickish things (I remember his marketing for Puzzle Strike was basically "so Dominion sucks, but I fixed it for you. You're welcome") but is there any one particular thing he did that results in so much ire? He has 0 creativity in his bones and apes everything from other's creations. He literally ripped off the idea of Puzzle Strike from BGG including the chip's graphic designs and layouts. One of his main characters in his games is named "Jaina Stormborne", a combination of two other nerd queens from Warcraft and A Game of Thrones. He is mechanically minded but creatively bankrupt, he's a twat.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 04:02
|
|
|
What game did Yomi and Codex rip off of? I'd like to play them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 04:08
|
|
|
Fat Turkey posted:The Gallerist. Where did you get the files for this? I read your writeup here and reinstalled TTS after having never used it before because I like the idea of playing heavy-ish games at any point. Is there a good tutorial somewhere?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 04:27
|
|
|
David Sirlin consistently makes really great games that borrow mechanics from other major titles in the industry. He's always on time with deliveries and charges a premium for his products, saying that the high quality materials and rules justify his costs. He enjoys financial success, and has an ebook about how to succeed like he does that is of questionable worth. He has one game known primarily from its comparisons to other games (Puzzle Strike) but the rest of his catalog (Codex, Fantasy Strike, Yomi) are unarguably unique, although they do have some mechanics they take from other games. He's also a bit insufferable and smug. Jamey Steigmaier consistently makes average games that borrow mechanics from other major titles in the industry. He's always on time with deliveries and charges a premium for his products, saying that the high quality materials and rules justify his costs. He enjoys financial success, and has an ebook about how to succeed like he does that is of questionable worth. He has one game known primarily from its comparisons to other games (Scythe) but the rest of his catalog (Viticulture, Euphoria) are unarguably unique, although they do have some mechanics they take from other games. He's also very nice and easy to get along with. The only difference between the two is that most of Steigmaier's games aren't that interesting for repeat play, where as Sirlin's are. At least, that's the only thing that affects you if you buy a game and aren't, like, planning to marry one of them or something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 05:07
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:What game did Yomi and Codex rip off of? I'd like to play them. He's not exactly hiding that Codex is a combination of MtG and Starcraft. A good percentage of the cards are essentially renamed MtG cards, and a bulk of the keywords are renamed MtG keywords/mechanics (or not renamed, like "Haste") with a little Hearthstone mixed in (attacking units directly/Taunt effects/etc..). It isn't really a fair complaint, because it's hard to do something in this space that Magic hasn't tried first, and certainly Sirlin has added some twists here (just as other similar games have, or just like every non-Dominion deckbuilder does). But there's no use pretending Sirlin isn't harvesting a bunch of stuff particularly from MtG - even Sirlin is pretty open about it. quote:The only difference between the two is that most of Steigmaier's games aren't that interesting for repeat play, where as Sirlin's are. At least, that's the only thing that affects you if you buy a game and aren't, like, planning to marry one of them or something. To be fair, the questions was something like "Why does everyone hate Sirlin?" not "does Sirlin make good games?" - so his character is not some irrelevant trivia. It's not some mystery how "being a dick" and "everyone hates you" might go together. And, to be clear, lots of people hate him not just for parroting ideas or being generally smug (though obviously that doesn't help) - but specifically for stealing some guy's design work and then being a dick about it. Honestly, I was hoping maybe this time "People are obviously jealous of his talent" was just going to end the discussion (it was a perfect answer). I thought we'd reached a pretty nice detente in the thread here, where people felt free to talk about Sirlin games as long as they crossed themselves by PS'ing "..and, of course, Sirlin is a dick". That seems like a nice middle ground. jmzero fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jun 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 06:04
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:The only difference between the two is that most of Steigmaier's games aren't that interesting for repeat play, where as Sirlin's are. At least, that's the only thing that affects you if you buy a game and aren't, like, planning to marry one of them or something. To my knowledge, Steigmaier has never ripped off a graphic designer without compensation. Sirlin completely Todd Goldman-ed Matthan Heiselt's chip artwork, including layout, banner design, action and draw iconography, color coding choices, et cetera. It's really blatant if you side-by-side the two, especially since it would have been easy as hell to come up with an alternate layout and different icons. Like, why even use a banner flourish for the title? Pennants call to the vaguely feudal aesthetic of Dominion. Why not something that calls to the visual design of Puzzle Fighter? Or to Street Fighter or Tetris or Puyo Puyo or even Yomi? Or if he can't even be bothered to demonstrate a bit of creativity, why not do the decent thing and commission Matthan Heiselt for his work? And end consumers protest shady art-theft practices all the time. See also Todd Goldman, see also Shepard Fairey, see also the hundred or so Hot Topic scandals. Like, that's a valid reason to feel gross about buying a commercial product. That said, I'll still buy Puzzle Strike at some point. I think it's a good game that iterates on Dominion in a very well thought out manner. But I don't begrudge anyone who wants to stay away because of the sordid business practices. FAKE EDIT: Other ways Sirlin has poo poo up his games in a way that directly impacts the consumer: 1) Putting his creepy rape fantasies in the official Fantasy Strike lore. 2)  REAL EDIT: That said, I do think people get unnecessarily petty about Sirlin's pricing model, or his habit of releasing rapid edition changes. Like, dude has a lot of options for buying into his game cheap. You don't have to drop $200 on Yomi, you can drop $10 on one character and play your friends, MTG preconstructed style. He also sells cheap PNP files for most of his games, if you need to go hardcore poverty mode. That's pretty generous by industry standards. gutterdaughter fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Jun 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 06:17
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:What game did Yomi and Codex rip off of? I'd like to play them. rock paper scissors
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 06:33
|
|
|
My biggest issue with Sirlin was seeing him berate staff at a hotel for, from my vantage, being moderately in his way while checking out some sort of vent thing in the wall. Pretty sure I watched him do this for 3 to 5 minutes. As someone who works in a public fading capacity, anyone who shits up someone's day like that gets a healthy dose of ire.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 06:37
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:but the rest of his catalog (Codex, Fantasy Strike, Yomi) are unarguably unique Flash Duel is Knizia's En Garde with some lovely house rules, Pandante is Poker with some lovely house rules, Chess 2 is Chess with some lovely house rules. Seems to me like calling him creatively barren is pretty fair.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 06:57
|
|
|
So how good is Ora et Labora? It looks like a really nice resource conversion game (which I like) and I'm a fan of Rosenberg games, owning FoA, Glass Road, Loyang. Mercator, Patchwork, Agricola ACBS and Le Havre the Inland port. So it looks like a no brainer to get, right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 07:25
|
|
|
To be fair saying Scythe is only known by comparison to other games is slightly disingenuous people are just repeating the initial teaser pitch and the game is only just coming out. And no replay in Stonemeir games friends of mine have played Viticulture at least twice a week for the last few months.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 08:12
|
|
|
Yep, I'll agree Euphoria is a little meh, but Viticulture (especially with Tuscany) is a great light - medium worker placer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 08:42
|
|
|
Selecta84 posted:So how good is Ora et Labora? Ora et Labora is my favorite of Rosenberg's games. It feels most similar to Le Havre. Be warned it has no random elements beyond seat position and starting player, which bothers some people for replayabilitiy reasons. I think the game has enough going on that it doesn't need randomness.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 09:28
|
|
|
garthoneeye posted:Ora et Labora is my favorite of Rosenberg's games. It feels most similar to Le Havre. Be warned it has no random elements beyond seat position and starting player, which bothers some people for replayabilitiy reasons. I think the game has enough going on that it doesn't need randomness. Thanks. After watching a walkthrough it seems that most of the replayability comes from the different ccenarios and trying out different strategies, like in FoA for example. How good is it as a solo game?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 09:35
|
|
|
On a countering opinion, I found Ora et Labora fairly boring: it apes Le Havre to some extent, but it both longer and exerts less pressure on the player. The length of the game is especially troublesome, because by the end you are just running engines, which I found extremely boring. I felt that Le Havre was a tighter, more focused design that has many more choke points that encourage player interaction.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 09:41
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:On a countering opinion, I found Ora et Labora fairly boring: it apes Le Havre to some extent, but it both longer and exerts less pressure on the player. The length of the game is especially troublesome, because by the end you are just running engines, which I found extremely boring. I felt that Le Havre was a tighter, more focused design that has many more choke points that encourage player interaction. Interesting. I like engine building so that might be a plus for me. But yeah it can get boring when it overstays it's welcome. Care to elaborate a bit more about Le Havre plays and such? I haven't really researched the game cause the theme wasn't my cup of tea. Unfortunately Le Havre is harder to get and quite a bit more expensive...
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 09:55
|
|
|
Le Havre has a fairly standard worker placement mechanisms with a few twists. On your turn, you can either move one of your workers, or take resources from an offering. The offering gradually build up like they would within Agricola, but not uniformly: different offerings get resources at different times, and the timing changes from game to game thanks to a neat randomization feature of the game (which also doubles as the turn track for the game). If you don't take from the offering, you can play your workers in buildings: only one worker can be present per building, and he locks it down for any other players while he is in it. There is no clear-up phase, so workers can potentially lock down a building for some time, but you can't re-use a building that your worker is on, so eventually you will have to move him and free up the building for use. Buildings originally can only be constructed, but eventually if enough time passes, they get constructed by the town, and then can be used by your workers and even bought for money (construction requires certain materials instead of money). You can use the buildings of other players, but if you do you usually have to pay them a fee, so it makes sense to build/buy the buildings that are central to your strategy. Like Ora et Labora, Le Havre has a ton of different resources, and all of them are double sided: usually one represents the raw resources (fish/grain/iron etc) and the other side is a processed resources that can be gained by using particular buildings (smoked fish/bread/steel etc). The winner of the game is the one that makes the most money: you can also take loans in the game but they aren't very punitive and usually it is worth taking a loan if it gains you something. The randomisation in the game comes from how the offerings get filled and which building come out: although there are buildings that will appear in every game, some of the buildings are randomised so that no two game is going to be exactly the same. I think it's one of my favourite Uwe's, even managing to top Agricola.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 10:46
|
|
|
Thanks a bunch. Gonna try to decide now which to get... They both sound quite appealing and A Feast for Odin shouldn't come out until September so I have enough time to enjoy another Rosenberg game before that... Selecta84 fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jun 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 10:55
|
|
|
jmzero posted:He's not exactly hiding that Codex is a combination of MtG and Starcraft. A good percentage of the cards are essentially renamed MtG cards, and a bulk of the keywords are renamed MtG keywords/mechanics (or not renamed, like "Haste") with a little Hearthstone mixed in (attacking units directly/Taunt effects/etc..).  Combining previously good ideas into another new good idea isn't stealing, its innovation. This is why I hate the concept of copyright and intellectual property so much, it's not just a practical matter it seeps into our attitudes. All human creativity is incremental and built on top of the ideas that came before, there is nothing new under the sun. You shouldn't shame people for taking old ideas and improving on them, everything doesn't have to be 100% unique to be progress. sicarius posted:My biggest issue with Sirlin was seeing him berate staff at a hotel for, from my vantage, being moderately in his way while checking out some sort of vent thing in the wall. Pretty sure I watched him do this for 3 to 5 minutes. As someone who works in a public fading capacity, anyone who shits up someone's day like that gets a healthy dose of ire. Now this is insufferable, what a prick. Don't abuse public staff just because they have to be polite to you. Everyone should be forced to work a month at a children's water park or something to adjust their attitudes. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Jun 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 12:56
|
|
|
Played Yokohama last night. Cool little 75 minute romp. Not nearly as 'cluttered' looking as it first seems. Much like Kanban in that respect (only).
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:16
|
|
|
Copyright doesn't cover ideas, it covers expression. Make all the deck builders, hero's journey, and cartoon mice you want just don't call them Dominion, Star Wars, or Mickey. And looking at Puzzle Strike and some dude's Dominion fan project from 7 years ago and it's inexcusable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:19
|
|
|
al-azad posted:Copyright doesn't cover ideas, it covers expression. Make all the deck builders, hero's journey, and cartoon mice you want just don't call them Dominion, Star Wars, or Mickey. No, its trademarks that cover and stifle expression (assuming you are a big enough company with enough lawyers). Using chips for a dominion clone is no worse a sin than someone using playing cards to make a new game. An idea is an idea! Someone came up with the concept of cards, and we are all ripping them off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:27
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:No, its trademarks that cover and stifle expression (assuming you are a big enough company with enough lawyers). Using chips for a dominion clone is no worse a sin than someone using playing cards to make a new game. An idea is an idea! Someone came up with the concept of cards, and we are all ripping them off. It's not that they both use chips that is the issue. It's that the chips look so similar.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:33
|
|
|
DonnyTrump posted:It's not that they both use chips that is the issue. It's that the chips look so similar. If it looks good there is no reason not to copy the design elements. Its still fine, unless he literally took the guys own PDFs and just used that instead of making his own design (I still don't have a moral problem with this, it's just kind of lazy). I mean should we arrest the Renaissance for copying the Romans? What a rip off! The only difference between Sirilins ideas and everyone elses is that you know where his ideas came from. No one is unique. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Jun 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:38
|
|
|
Just a reminder that rutibex literally does not think that designers deserve to be compensated for design work, and considers a board game to be only worth as much as the components that come in the box. Attempting to debate him on the finer points of intellectual property is unlikely to be productive.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:41
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:No one is unique. Well, I am. It's my mom's word against yours, buddy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:42
|
|
|
Jabor posted:Just a reminder that rutibex literally does not think that designers deserve to be compensated for design work, and considers a board game to be only worth as much as the components that come in the box. Attempting to debate him on the finer points of intellectual property is unlikely to be productive. Thats not true. I pirate board games because I am poor, not because I think designers shouldn't be paid  I'm fairly sure it works like almost any other creative industry, where the designer is paid a set rate on a "work for hire" contract and the publisher retains the intellectual rights to the game. The people that designed Talisman have already been paid a salary, by printing my own copy I am ripping off Fantasy Flight corporation and not the designer (and only theoretically, because I printed the 1st edition which they do not sell).It's not that I think creative people don't deserve payment. It's that I think it would be better to figure out a system to pay them that doesn't involve intellectual monopolies, like crowd funded patronage or government grants.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 13:59
|
|
|
My ex just got Targi for 1 euro from a thrift shop... I hosed up .
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:06
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:If it looks good there is no reason not to copy the design elements. Its still fine, unless he literally took the guys own PDFs and just used that instead of making his own design (I still don't have a moral problem with this, it's just kind of lazy). I mean should we arrest the Renaissance for copying the Romans? What a rip off! This is incorrect. You know nothing about copyright law and stealing artwork and should really quit while you're
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:07
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:If it looks good there is no reason not to copy the design elements. Its still fine, unless he literally took the guys own PDFs and just used that instead of making his own design (I still don't have a moral problem with this, it's just kind of lazy). I mean should we arrest the Renaissance for copying the Romans? What a rip off! Did you not see the images? Puzzle Strike is literally the same as a Dominion fan project right down to the iconography. You could probably shove them in photoshop and find out they align properly. Copyright protects expression. If I make Star Wars you should not be able to profit off that. You can make a sci-fi movie about evil empires and rebellions with planet destroying space stations but if you call your hero Luke Skywalker I am well within my rights to protect that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:10
|
|
|
Rutibex holds and stands by far less healthy opinions about people and gaming than what he feels someone completely unconnected to him should be paid and why, so I dunno, maybe there's a better way to spend your morning.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:25
|
|
|
EvilChameleon posted:Where did you get the files for this? I read your writeup here and reinstalled TTS after having never used it before because I like the idea of playing heavy-ish games at any point. Is there a good tutorial somewhere? Ah. Well I played because someone in the lobby was offering a teaching game of it, which means he hosted it and had all the files. I don't think I actually acquire them, I play on his hosting. I think he was the creator because he spoke of tweaking the automation but it worked well from my perspective. But he gave me a link to a discord channel for TTS eurogamers like The Gallerist which I've saved. I can see if I can find him there are get the files off him. Or I can share the discord server on PM or Steam as there may be other games there that appeal. If you don't know discord, I was reluctant at first, but considering you don't need to register and just need a link to connect (no download necessary), it's made a lot of my online gaming a lot simpler. I don't know if there is a goon TTS group or if it's very populated, but happy to play if our paths cross! Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Jun 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:26
|
|
|
Please stop interacting with Rubitex. I played the Star Craft board game, with brood war expansion recently. I thought it'd be naff like all licensed things but I actually enjoyed it? And apparently Forbidden Stars is just the same game but new-er? How similar is Forbidden Stars to Starcraft?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:26
|
|
|
al-azad posted:Copyright protects expression. If I make Star Wars you should not be able to profit off that. You can make a sci-fi movie about evil empires and rebellions with planet destroying space stations but if you call your hero Luke Skywalker I am well within my rights to protect that. I understand how intellectual property works, that's why I dislike it. I am arguing for how things ought to be, not how they work presently. Meh, I'll drop it.  I don't think I'm going to get any converts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 14:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 00:30 |
|
|
AMooseDoesStuff posted:Please stop interacting with Rubitex. I haven't played FS yet myself, but the main thing it reimplements is the order stacking system, though there are a lot of other similarities. There's still deckbuilding involved with combat, though you're replacing/upgrading cards instead of adding cards to the combat deck, and combat resolution itself involves rolling and manipulating dice using said cards across several rounds. The way dice are used looks fairly good, since instead of trying to roll high you have custom symbols that all do useful stuff. Other things were changed around or streamlined as well, iirc there's just a single main resource now that you harvest via action, all air units count as transports instead of being a separate unit, instead of accumulating points each faction is trying to reach specific planets that are marked at the start of the game. Basically, it looks like a good way to play SCBG in the year 2016 if you don't already have a way to do so.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2016 15:16
|
|