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What's an Imperial Count? Is he like a normal Count except that the Emperor is his direct overlord?
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Jun 30, 2016 17:11
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Hogge Wild posted:What's an Imperial Count? Is he like a normal Count except that the Emperor is his direct overlord? imperial abbeys, convents, knights, counts, etc
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Jun 30, 2016 17:12
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HEY GAL posted:as far as i know, everything that's prefaced with imperial is that I wonder if Imperial Villagers thought themselves higher than ordinary peasants.
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Jun 30, 2016 17:26
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Not that it really matters because the figures in the photo really represent everyone who fought in the Pacific in WWII yadda yadda, but the Marine Corps just made the move everyone's been expecting and officially announced the corpsman John Bradley wasn't in the Iwo flagraising photo. e: To be clear, he wasn't in the famous Rosenthal photo. MrMojok fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 18:56
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ArchangeI posted:I wonder if Imperial Villagers thought themselves higher than ordinary peasants. Well, they were probably less heavily taxed, so maybe?
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Jun 30, 2016 19:08
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It's all about titles around here. Always has been.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:43
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Nebakenezzer posted:Part of the inspiration for Cryptonomicon, I think, came from the discovery of I-101, a sunken IJN submarine. She was in the Atlantic sailing to France when she was intercepted and sunk by USN warplanes. On-board she had (among other things) 2.2 tons of gold, which in today's prices would be worth $84,806,849 in US dollars. It's still there, sunk in the mid-Atlantic. There's a guy who's lead at least one expedition to the sub, but all they recovered was a several pound block of opium. Opium, huh? What were they paying Göring off for? Did he talk Hitler into declaring war on the US or something?
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Jun 30, 2016 20:16
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Was opium consumed widely by the IJN/IJA?
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Jun 30, 2016 20:29
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TropicalCoke posted:Was opium consumed widely by the IJN/IJA?
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Jun 30, 2016 20:33
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Gotta have something to do on those long trips. Especially before VCRs and smart phones to keep the sailors entertained.
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Jun 30, 2016 20:40
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, shooting officers is an old strategy. In the early ACW, it was "shoot the guys on horses" because they were officers (excepting cavalry, of course). They learned to stay dismounted as much as possible, and eventually to wear ratty old coats so they didn't stand out. Yeah, there were various cases on the American Revolution of frontiersmen snipers shooting mounted officers from afar and that carrying out to the ACW where a good chunk of artillery commanders and cavalry officers on both sides got leaded.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:06
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Yeah, there were various cases on the American Revolution of frontiersmen snipers shooting mounted officers from afar and that carrying out to the ACW where a good chunk of artillery commanders and cavalry officers on both sides got leaded. And sometimes directly hit with a cannonball and messily blown almost in half.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:09
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MrMojok posted:Not that it really matters because the figures in the photo really represent everyone who fought in the Pacific in WWII yadda yadda, but the Marine Corps just made the move everyone's been expecting and officially announced the corpsman John Bradley wasn't in the Iwo flagraising photo.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:13
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dublish posted:Opium, huh? What were they paying Göring off for? Did he talk Hitler into declaring war on the US or something? I do love the idea of Goering getting a bulk shipment of opium from Japan by submarine But I'd say it was for making morphine. I'm looking for a manifest right now, but Japan typically shipped the most valuble stuff the Germans couldn't get. On another Sub that managed to get to France, the manifest was: 80 tons of raw rubber, 80 tons of tungsten, 50 tons of tin, two tons of zinc, and three tons each of quinine, opium, and coffee. The coffee was probably just for Nazi elite e: here we go quote:Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine.[4] The gold was payment for German optical technology. She also carried 14 passengers, primarily Japanese technicians, who were to study German technology in anti-aircraft guns, and engines for torpedo boats. Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 21:15
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Guys, guys, let's get me a robe of the shiniest possible yellow silk, then y'all can carry me on our biggest, most ornate and colorfully lacquered palanquin. Those dudes over there with the wall gun are are going to be sooooo jealous.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:18
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Nebakenezzer posted:I do love the idea of Goering getting a bulk shipment of opium from Japan by submarine
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Jun 30, 2016 21:21
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quote:One of the enduring legends of the Civil War is that Polk witnessed his subordinate, Maj. Gen. Benjamin F. Cheatham, advancing his division. Cheatham allegedly shouted, "Give 'em hell, boys!" and Polk, retaining the sensibility of his role as an Episcopal bishop, seconded the cheer: "Give it to 'em boys; give 'em what General Cheatham says!"[12] Hahaha aww
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Jun 30, 2016 21:23
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HEY GAL posted:which reminds me--Ensign Expendable, I know a relative of yours was on the Reichstag roof when they raised the Soviet flag on it, but are they in that one photo? His battalion took the Reichstag, I don't know where he was personally. Also by that one photo, I assume you mean of Yegorov and Kantaria. They raised the flag on May 1st, my grandfather's battalion did it on April 30th. Also the famous photo was a reenactment taken after the fact.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:34
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HEY GAL posted:the nazis really were running on fumes weren't they, they've got their friends passing them rubber in the back of the room while the teacher isn't looking You know they are just doodling preposterous supertanks again Ultratanks
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Jun 30, 2016 23:26
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ArchangeI posted:I wonder if Imperial Villagers thought themselves higher than ordinary peasants. Has there ever been a case where people didn't seize on a reason to look down at other people?
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Jun 30, 2016 23:34
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TropicalCoke posted:Was opium consumed widely by the IJN/IJA? From what i've read IJN sailors mainly liked getting really, really drunk. Dunno about the army.
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Jul 1, 2016 00:06
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Nebakenezzer posted:Part of the inspiration for Cryptonomicon, I think, came from the discovery of I-101, a sunken IJN submarine. She was in the Atlantic sailing to France when she was intercepted and sunk by USN warplanes. On-board she had (among other things) 2.2 tons of gold, which in today's prices would be worth $84,806,849 in US dollars. It's still there, sunk in the mid-Atlantic. There's a guy who's lead at least one expedition to the sub, but all they recovered was a several pound block of opium. Don't you mean I-52? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-52_(1942)
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Jul 1, 2016 07:08
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Fangz posted:No, this is wrong. A WWII sword is a personal defence weapon designed primarily to embody some kind of ceremonial tradition, with the benefit of being relatively convenient to carry strapped to one's waist in one's daily life. There's lots of compromises there as well. It should be no surprise that the main battlefield weapon in traditional Japanese warfare is actually the spear.
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Jul 1, 2016 08:05
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Zereth posted:Didn't samurai when actually being people fighting on battlefields act primarily as mounted archers? I think it was both, but the bushido sword thing is definitely a 19th century invention just like everything else in pop history/culture/national creation myth.
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Jul 1, 2016 08:11
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Swords are a symbol of class and status because they cost a lot more than a spear, and that's probably why they're so uniformly associated with nobility across a range of cultures. I think that was a pretty strong element throughout a long span of Japanese history, but also why they become a fixation for later Romantics who care a lot about idealizing or re-awakening a class.
Disinterested fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 08:13
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Zereth posted:Didn't samurai when actually being people fighting on battlefields act primarily as mounted archers? It's a bit like saying lorica segmentata is the 'traditional armor' of the conderottoi or the Brown Bess is the traditional weapon of the British infantryman but yeah, mounted archery was the main way samurai fought for a good chunk of their existence. At the last part of the Sengoku they were rocking pike blocks and gunlines though, which as has been noted is God's Own Way of War. Disinterested posted:Swords are a symbol of class and status because they cost a lot more than a spear, and that's probably why they're so uniformly associated with nobility across a range of cultures. I think that was a pretty strong element throughout a long span of Japanese history, but also why they become a fixation for later Romantics who care a lot about idealizing or re-awakening a class. Yes and no. I think the really important part is they they literally and actually become the marker of class in the Edo Period. The Tokugawa shoguns put a hard lock on all class movement a rolled out pretty sweeping laws on behavior. Samurai were required to carry two swords in the same way Jews had to wear red hats. They were meanwhile limited to a pretty narrow band of economic activities and made wholly reliant on their lords for support. Less about a reawakening more a very firm fixture in place. You've got some fun cases like Yukichi Fukuza (who wrote an excellent and rather candor autobiography) where he details, among other things, pawning off his swords and going around with bamboo in his sheathes. This wasn't terribly uncommon but if we was ever caught doing that he'd have been in a world of trouble.
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Jul 1, 2016 08:35
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And by the Sengoku Jidai, you didn't really have samurai squaring off for duels for the most part. Instead, you have large formations of trained peasants armed with a large variety of weapons. The samurai in this era aren't as strictly defined a group as they once were or later will be. Unfortunately I don't know enough of the details such as troop makeup. I imagine samurai were typically in positions as officers as well as forming a strong corps of reliable veterans. Part of the reforms involved in putting the era of violence behind them was the sword hunt. It wasn't unusual for people to be armed with all manner of weapons then because they'd want to defend themselves. Peasants were pretty much left to fend for themselves. By restricting swords to just samurai, they disarmed large parts of the population. Other common weapons like spears and firearms, while still dangerous, weren't nearly as effective as a personal defense weapon. This is also partly where the story/myth of the women of samurai clans wielding naginatas came into being, because the men all had their swords, while a woman would only have whatever family heirlooms/relics leftover. Thus, they'd defend the home with whatever they had, the popular depiction being a naginata. It's bigger and heavier than a sword but a far better weapon in wars involving large formations. Samurai as mounted archers dates back to their origins but it was hardly the only thing they did. I don't think there was much in the way of mounted archery in Japan by the time of the Sengoku Jidai but again, I don't know enough to really give a solid answer. I don't think Japanese mounted archery ever became as effective as on the continent and that's at least partly because as time went on, the practice became less and less a part of their livelihood.
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Jul 1, 2016 08:36
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Throatwarbler posted:I think it was both, but the bushido sword thing is definitely a 19th century invention just like everything else in pop history/culture/national creation myth. Again, no, Japan spent a good bit of time driving away from swords (symbol of a barbaric past see, highly unmodern) before seesawing back to Nippon Superiority.Banning the wearing of swords was a big part of the 19th century nation building project. Katana's were in fact a big loving deal and swords were a big loving deal in the west too; I feel like this is one of those things where the *aha* pop-hist-isn't-true counter story has swung a bit too far the other way. Like, knights didn't need to be winched onto their horses, but there are a few recorded places where armor does prove to be a detriment in it's weight and people did start moving away from full plate and into more stripped down essentials only type armor even in times when getting stabbed was a very real concern. the JJ fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 08:46
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Argas posted:And by the Sengoku Jidai, you didn't really have samurai squaring off for duels for the most part. Instead, you have large formations of trained peasants armed with a large variety of weapons. The samurai in this era aren't as strictly defined a group as they once were or later will be. Unfortunately I don't know enough of the details such as troop makeup. I imagine samurai were typically in positions as officers as well as forming a strong corps of reliable veterans. The samurai are in this weird position where at times it's both a job description and a social class but yes as the Sengoku Jidai went by there were peasants in the mix. Hideyoshi (who ordered the most famous sword hunt!) was for instance a sandal boy before his rise to power. Still, there were more samurai than just an officer class. Also of note, we call it a "sword hunt" because that's a literal translation of the symbols but 'weapon confiscation' or 'disarmament campaign' might be a better translation,* and it wasn't just about taking swords from peasants, but about taking weapons including, e.g. assloads of muskets, shitloads of spears, etc. etc. from would be enemies of the new regime. Mounted archery (and riding in general, and archery in general, in fact) is one of those things which can really dominate a battlefield when done well but takes a lot of training to get to the point where someone can be good enough to compete. Some places got around this by just living the cavalry way of life day to day (Mongols, people in Hey Gal's era thought of light-cavalry-ness as almost an inborn/cultural/ethic trait that couldn't be trained or drilled.) Others did it by developing a military class (sipahis, samurai, knights are an example of a similar class though obviously with less of a mounted archer type focus) Mounted archers fall off in the era of pike and shot though. *I find the habit of 'exotic' translations an interesting issue when dealing with East Asian histories. the JJ fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 08:58
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elites within the professional military are probably trained in and can afford multiple weapons, and will use whichever is most tactically appropriate
Phobophilia fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 09:01
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If you’re into WWII history and need a job, you might be interested in working as the Historic Preservation Officer in the Northern Mariana Islands, which include Saipan and Tinian.
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Jul 1, 2016 09:03
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Phobophilia posted:elites within the professional military are probably trained in and can afford multiple weapons, and will use whichever is most tactically appropriate. the sword has alot of cultural significance, but the other weapons are more important on the battlefield Eeeeeeeh I'd contest that, I guess. Especially "the other weapons are more important on the battlefield." We have plenty of records of plenty of armies that looked at what they had and went 'yup, swords are what I want here.' Celtic warriors, viking raiders, Roman legionnaires, Aztecs putting stone flakes on their clubs, oodles of cavalrymen from crusaders to cuirassier etc. etc. It wasn't an every tool for every moment but there were definitely times when that was the weapon to have, or the weapon you'd want to have if you could afford it.
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Jul 1, 2016 09:07
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the JJ posted:*I find the habit of 'exotic' translations an interesting issue when dealing with East Asian histories. edit: Speaking of, germans are where we got the word Warlord, it's a calque from "Kriegsherr." edit 2: I think. English Wikipedia says it's the other way around, so 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 09:11
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the JJ posted:(Mongols, people in Hey Gal's era thought of light-cavalry-ness as almost an inborn/cultural/ethic trait that couldn't be trained or drilled.)
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Jul 1, 2016 09:15
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chitoryu12 posted:Considering what the past Battlefield and Call of Duty games did, I'm wondering if we're suddenly going to see airsoft MP 18s and 12-year-olds wearing Doughboy helmets and holding bayonets in Facebook profile pictures. Those already exist though? 
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Jul 1, 2016 09:19
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the JJ posted:The samurai are in this weird position where at times it's both a job description and a social class but yes as the Sengoku Jidai went by there were peasants in the mix. Hideyoshi (who ordered the most famous sword hunt!) was for instance a sandal boy before his rise to power. Still, there were more samurai than just an officer class. Good to know, I wasn't aware that it was a literal translation. I didn't meant to imply they only went after swords, just that the general disarmament was one of the things that led up to the mythologization of Japanese swords because the samurai were allowed to keep theirs. I always found it funny that Hideyoshi couldn't become shogun because of his commoner background, but there's no issue with him becoming the regent and chancellor. I'll have to ask my friend for further elaboration but he noted a trend in the shape of Japanese swords. Swords tended to be shorter during eras of war and got the stereotypical katana-length in peacetime.
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Jul 1, 2016 09:20
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Argas posted:Good to know, I wasn't aware that it was a literal translation. I didn't meant to imply they only went after swords, just that the general disarmament was one of the things that led up to the mythologization of Japanese swords because the samurai were allowed to keep theirs. Possibly, there are different evolutionary pressures going on. Peacetime swords would have been for show, or at most for duels and street brawls. I can imagine the expectation of heavier use, the presence of armor and the possibility of use on horseback to push for a different set of standards.
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Jul 1, 2016 09:26
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the JJ posted:Possibly, there are different evolutionary pressures going on. Peacetime swords would have been for show, or at most for duels and street brawls. I can imagine the expectation of heavier use, the presence of armor and the possibility of use on horseback to push for a different set of standards. Could it be in any way related to the way the arming sword (?) in Europe gradually turned into ludicrously long rapiers? IE for military sidearm use you need something short and choppy, but in duels being able to stick the other guy first is a real advantage, so you want a longer blade, even if you lose most of your slashiness. I probably just got a lot of stuff wrong.
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Jul 1, 2016 09:46
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the JJ posted:Again, no, Japan spent a good bit of time driving away from swords (symbol of a barbaric past see, highly unmodern) before seesawing back to Nippon Superiority.Banning the wearing of swords was a big part of the 19th century nation building project.  They'd also mass-produce new katana-style blades for swords, because the military needed an assload of swords and only so many officers had a spare katana of their own lying around. Later they developed a cavalry sabre, which... Was just a cavalry sabre, really.  The hilt is really plain compared to contemporary British models, but I like how it fits together really neatly. Siivola fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Jul 1, 2016 |
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Jul 1, 2016 09:49
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Where did all these Katina and samurai myths come from? I read someone claiming that Samurai refused to use spears, because they were a peasant's weapon. And how long were Karna's generally? I remember numbers saying a tango was 30cm, wakizashi (the second sword samurai carried) was 60, katana was 90, tachi was 120, No-Dachi (which I think translates as big sword, so Hey Gal's guys use no-dachis) were 150, but that seems far too neat, even assuming they vary by a few cm. And how common was carrying a Daisho? I get it was a ceremonial thing, but it seems impractical.
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Jul 1, 2016 09:53
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