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Looking forward to the next uralmod.
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Jul 2, 2016 20:11
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While I think it's cool we're getting Yugoslavia for REDFOR because it means some cool unique units, after browsing the official forums thread for the faction I realized I'd forgotten literally everything involving the Balkans devolves into "who else thinks genocide is pretty great" 
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Jul 13, 2016 17:05
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:While I think it's cool we're getting Yugoslavia for REDFOR because it means some cool unique units, after browsing the official forums thread for the faction I realized I'd forgotten literally everything involving the Balkans devolves into "who else thinks genocide is pretty great" Honestly I'd have to think if I were offered the wargame fan base disappearing from the face of the earth even though it includes me and cool people because a hugely disproportionate number of genocide advocates and actual literal nazis are in it.
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Jul 13, 2016 17:17
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How are the Dutch now that they're out?
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Jul 26, 2016 23:39
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Thunder Moose posted:How are the Dutch now that they're out? Really solid deck without being OP. It's like a mixed BLUFOR deck and you get a solid air deck of F-16s, solid armor lineup incl. 2A5s and upgunned 2A4s, solid support lineup and good infantry. Weakness is a lack of gimmick super units, lack of infantry ATGM, SEAD and AA helos.
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Jul 27, 2016 03:43
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The ultra cheap rocket apache is a surprisingly good fast helo screen at its price tag, too. They seem to have some mid-priced baby boondoggles that are really nice, like their very good optics leo that at 8 armor can take a hit or three from lighter stuff without getting blapped. I'm also fond of non-radar hawks or even just having the capability, it puts a damper on SEAD. Same goes for having access to non-fratricidal supply units. They also have access to a 10 point line infantry squad with a 5 point transport that has 2 armor up front which always makes me happy.
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Jul 27, 2016 04:26
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So I take the lack of infantry ATGM to mean they still won't budge on infantry TOWs. A curious choice given current events.
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Jul 27, 2016 05:04
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The rocket Apache was also used to make a game breaking helo rush in the recent 2v2 charity tournament and led to much drama in what remains of the games Reddit community.
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Jul 27, 2016 10:59
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TsarZiedonis posted:The rocket Apache was also used to make a game breaking helo rush in the recent 2v2 charity tournament and led to much drama in what remains of the games Reddit community. Tell me more.
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Jul 27, 2016 14:29
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Thunder Moose posted:How are the Dutch now that they're out? Pedantic. Warbadger posted:So I take the lack of infantry ATGM to mean they still won't budge on infantry TOWs. A curious choice given current events. The Dutch ATGM infantry are so much fun though. Farting out Super Dragons that actually hit things from time to time in massive numbers will never cease being funny.
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Jul 27, 2016 15:23
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Did anyone ever helo rush with a wall of Hinds? If you took the NK/USSR deck you could put out like 19 Hinds at start, complete with recon and CV infantry. A wall of 19 300 km/h, 1 front armor helos is not fun to stop when you have like 1-2 AAA at the start of a round.
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Jul 27, 2016 15:54
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Mazz posted:Did anyone ever helo rush with a wall of Hinds? If you took the NK/USSR deck you could put out like 19 Hinds at start, complete with recon and CV infantry. A wall of 19 300 km/h, 1 front armor helos is not fun to stop when you have like 1-2 AAA at the start of a round. It's a bit harder to do now that the cheap hinds had their availability nerfed, but it's still A Thing. As to the drama, some Swiss guy named Random brought a Dutch/Germany deck and spammed escorts and the recon Tiger while his buddy bought as many 5 point AA infantry as he could in Lynx AH7s. They did this in a tightly contested semi final where some seriously good, popular YouTube personalities were their opponents. They did the same thing with the sides switched on Paddy Field, and spammed Hinds and 5 point Strela-2 teams to get as many Mi-17s on the field as possible. In at least one of these games, the opposition knew a helo Rush was likely coming and were brutalized regardless. In response to community outrage over this Dick Move, Random posted a 45 minute video elaborating on his helo tactics, showed how he totally would have beaten the helo rushes that he used and concluded that he had simply "tactically outmaneuvered" the other team. He and his partner were booted from the finals, ostensibly because of scheduling conflicts, he made a post about how he is the rightful winner and helo rushes are very much taboo right now.
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Jul 27, 2016 16:25
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I don't have enough experience in competitive RD to really judge the situation either way, but I'm struggling to see how a rush like that works. Since it's purely choppers and useless infantry, I assume their strategy is to kill all command vehicles rather than try to take and hold ground? If so, that strategy hasn't really worked against good players before in the previous games. Is there some factor in RD that makes it more viable? The way it used to go is your recon chopper spots a helo rush, you quit worrying about advancing for the zones and instead hunker down in forests and towns, your AA gets free reign but more importantly they have to fly over all your rifles and machine guns and autocannons to get to you and most of the choppers tended to die that way. And of course you'd buy more AA all the while. It was pretty common until people learned to counter it. Elukka fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 16:45
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The 2v2 dynamic is way different, because then you can take a truly critical mass of choppers from two different coalitions. IIRC, the rushing team also sends cheap napalm *after* the choppers arrive to light up the spot where new units spawn in, stunlocking any reinforcing AA. And remember, these are very competent players, so the helos aren't clumping and being mass fragged or anything. The AH7 and Mi-17 are also hilariously cost effective, and having 20-30 of them means that any AA is stunlocked if not killed outright. In the relevant games, the helos were also followed by CV infantry, and then they called in normal units from the spawn. Obviously there's no such thing as a foolproof strategy, but skilled players in the current meta can put together some nasty helo openers (really not just a rush) and tailoring your start to defend against them has a nasty impact on your ability to take and hold ground in the vital opening if your opponent fakes you out.
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Jul 27, 2016 17:16
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In retrospect, I'm not so sure it was in everyone's best interest to nerf/remove Radar anti-air missiles as a viable counter to helicopters back in ALB beta 
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Jul 27, 2016 17:31
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Also I searched out the posts about it on reddit and people were incredibly pissed that anyone would dare do a heli rush so probably, when all you have left in a community forbids cheese out of honor, they forgot how to defend against it.
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Jul 27, 2016 17:42
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The first game was nothing but Mi-17s rushing their spawns and sniping CVs and it was loving hilarious too
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Jul 27, 2016 17:43
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Random was always kind of an rear end in a top hat about "competitive" play on the ALB forums, he used to argue about how spam was the right way forward IIRC. Anyways, good helo rushes are really helped by CV infantry now, since you can grey out a zone almost immediately and/or flip it and start calling in a bunch of fast units like wheeled IFVs, which most helo decks still have plenty of. I tried it with France a few times and won all 3. It's hectic but you basically cut someone off at the knees and they scramble around trying to not die. Strong rocket helos work best, and/or cheap helos with a strong chin mounted cannon, like the Cassopiee at RD release. You kill AA units by overwhelming them, which is why ATGMs are mostly poo poo unless you get them real cheap like the old NK Mi-24s. You need to field helos with similar speed though for it to really excel, and as fast as possible, which is why France and Russia were singularly good at it. If you fill your deck with a bunch of cheap area denial stuff to protect your own CV, you can spam all that after the initial rush and they have very little chance of ever recovering. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 17:51
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Control Volume posted:The first game was nothing but Mi-17s rushing their spawns and sniping CVs and it was loving hilarious too Eh, people still helo Rush in ranked sometimes, but it isn't super common outside of the lowest levels because it gets boring fast. Good players keep some flexible AA around and use some holistic approaches to flesh out whether their opponent is rushing, i.e. Has the guy rushed before and did he hit ready super quick. I get that it's funny to watch in the replay and all, but in real life it was a big tournament involving all the YouTubers and high rank players, was supposed to be a big community awareness thing, everyone donated to some cancer charity, blah blah blah... So when the rushes happened, live streaming on twitch, it was *incredibly* toxic. People helo Rush all the time still, it was just in Incredibly bad taste to do so in this previously very sporting and positive community event. Also, not an expert, but it seems to me like it's way easier to defend against helos 1v1 than2v2.
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Jul 27, 2016 18:06
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I mean, rushing is poo poo and results in unfun games, but it's fundamentally a problem of the game, not the players. If you're going to have a competitive event you should assume people will strive to play optimally, and if playing optimally means the game is unfun then the game is broken and not fit for competitive play. Of course, you can always make house rules. However it wouldn't surprise me if there was a significant amount of this involved: Control Volume posted:Also I searched out the posts about it on reddit and people were incredibly pissed that anyone would dare do a heli rush so probably, when all you have left in a community forbids cheese out of honor, they forgot how to defend against it.
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Jul 27, 2016 18:47
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TsarZiedonis posted:The 2v2 dynamic is way different, because then you can take a truly critical mass of choppers from two different coalitions. IIRC, the rushing team also sends cheap napalm *after* the choppers arrive to light up the spot where new units spawn in, stunlocking any reinforcing AA. And remember, these are very competent players, so the helos aren't clumping and being mass fragged or anything. The AH7 and Mi-17 are also hilariously cost effective, and having 20-30 of them means that any AA is stunlocked if not killed outright. In the relevant games, the helos were also followed by CV infantry, and then they called in normal units from the spawn. Yeah the lack of a scouting phase has always been the games Achilles heel.
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Jul 27, 2016 19:37
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Elukka posted:I mean, rushing is poo poo and results in unfun games, but it's fundamentally a problem of the game, not the players. If you're going to have a competitive event you should assume people will strive to play optimally, and if playing optimally means the game is unfun then the game is broken and not fit for competitive play. TsarZiedonis posted:In at least one of these games, the opposition knew a helo Rush was likely coming and were brutalized regardless.
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Jul 27, 2016 19:52
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Dave47 posted:Zerg rushing / peon rushing has always been a thing, and doesn't make RTS games "fundamentally broken." Besides, it sounds like this was a hybrid competitive tourney / community building event.
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Jul 27, 2016 20:03
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Wargame's biggest problem is the whole game hinging on what you do in the first 5 minutes. I think future Wargames should consider removing CVs and just basing zone control on forces present.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:17
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I'd love an escalation mechanic and possibly cards that look more like baby versions of the various units from the campaign (so you can't as easily mass a fixed purpose monoculture and totally overwhelm a generalist force).
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Jul 27, 2016 21:39
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IIRC, the defending team was Commonwealth and mixed NATO, and their AA were Challenger marksmen, Stormers and PIVADS. I just don't think they had enough. Gun AA is what you usually use against lots of helos, because it stuns them really quickly, but it's hard to stun 30+ helos fast enough to matter. Remember, the real problem is that you can't know for sure that your opponent is going to rush... So, in this particular game, the defenders were put in the unenviable position of knowing that their opponents rush, but not knowing whether or not they were going to do it again. They bought an outsized force of AA at the start and a modest ground force to seize zones, because if they bought only AA, they lose to a normal play. That game was actually really interesting, it was on Gunboat and the rush team took one of the two spawns with helos. The game had some crazy back and forth where that zone traded back and forth several times, but the defenders eventually succumbed to the tanks Random was able to call in. I'm of the opinion that helo rushing in that sort of event absolutely should have been prohibited, and it was disappointing that the YouTuber running the thing was too nice to simply throw away the first game where it happened and prohibit it going forward.
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Jul 28, 2016 04:17
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Dave47 posted:Zerg rushing / peon rushing has always been a thing, and doesn't make RTS games "fundamentally broken." Besides, it sounds like this was a hybrid competitive tourney / community building event. It isn't like peon rushing because you begin games with a fuckton of points and your opponent can't tell whether you're using them for a normal force or a helo rush. That's the thing- in a lot of competitive games the time when you're going to have your most concentrated attack force is at the very beginning when there's not scouting units splayed all over the map. The base building in RTSs serves to force an opponent to telegraph moves and provides something to scout, some kind of info on the enemy strategy before it's executed in a way that wargame openings never have it.
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Jul 28, 2016 04:44
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What about just letting you see your opponent's starting positions when the game starts If you want to surprise them you have to call in units after the start
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Jul 28, 2016 05:08
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Panzeh posted:The base building in RTSs serves to force an opponent to telegraph moves and provides something to scout, some kind of info on the enemy strategy before it's executed in a way that wargame openings never have it. I wonder if it would help if you could just see the enemy decks? It'd make some sense too, that you'd have some idea of just what is barreling down on you. e: Although then you get stuck in a circle of counterpicks... Elukka fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 12:00
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Maybe just make all zones deployment zones at start?
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Jul 28, 2016 12:42
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Eh, rushing isn't the be all end all to the game. It's fine if it happens every once in a while, it just shouldn't happen in pre arranged tournaments. I don't think the game needs to be rebalanced around them. If I could pick anything to change about Wargame, it would be removing visible player stats.
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Jul 28, 2016 13:07
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My suggestion, if you spend more than 66% of your starting income on one unit type, a little icon appears next to your name of that unit type. Apply this for the first 2 minutes of gameplay too so you can't skate around it by deploying after the clock starts. After 2 minute the icons disappear. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 17:25
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Deployment period only allows recon units and infantry. Heavier units unlock once you contact an enemy.
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Jul 28, 2016 19:36
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General Battuta posted:Deployment period only allows recon units and infantry. Heavier units unlock once you contact an enemy. Mazz posted:My suggestion, if you spend more than 66% of your starting income on one unit type, a little icon appears next to your name of that unit type. Apply this for the first 2 minutes of gameplay too so you can't skate around it by deploying after the clock starts. TsarZiedonis posted:Eh, rushing isn't the be all end all to the game. It's fine if it happens every once in a while, it just shouldn't happen in pre arranged tournaments. I don't think the game needs to be rebalanced around them.
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Jul 28, 2016 20:13
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Or maybe just make it so that there's a time delay between capturing an enemy's deployment zone and being able to use it
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Jul 28, 2016 20:41
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Or give trucks/light APCs as transports for AA/AT missile units and make them available for airborne decks.
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Jul 28, 2016 20:56
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How to fix the next Wargame: Make the player pay an unlock cost in the match before buying units from that category, and make their first unit be the line unit. (Essentially to unlock the category you buy a very expensive line unit.) Forcing players to buy at least one line unit takes some of the edge off of the base-building problem. Either they hide it to build up and they've paid a larger unlock cost or they don't and you see they've unlocked a category before you have to deal with it in large numbers. Make it so you must include a line unit of a type in your deck to unlock that category in deck building. No dipping into categories just for the best stuff. A Shilka behind every Tunguska. A card of Leo1A4s in every German deck. Want a Longbow? Build at least 2 cards (4-5 deck points) of helicopters into your deck concept. If you want full coverage of your deck categories, you better go minor for the bonus points or accept that you will have a diverse lineup of line units. You would need to remove recon as a category, but recon was always just a random mishmash of other categories anyway. Split vehicles into motorized and mechanized, and then you could also make transports available on a by-unlock basis, so an infantry helo rush would require everyone to buy into helos and infantry at game start. If you want recon to be easy to pick out of the deck interface, give it its own column instead of its own row. Contact with the enemy tells you what categories they unlocked. Make the heavier and higher tech units a more significant investment; something like infantry-> logi:support:motorized-> armored:mechanized-> helicopter:airplane. Make it so you must include a certain number of line cards in a category per specialized card.* Make what counts change by game type, so an M1 counts as a special unit in 1970s gametype but an M1IP counts as a line unit in 1990s gametype. *I foresee a ton of pushback on forcing players to take sub-optimal units instead of all Leo2A5s and LeClercs, but Wargame has a huge problem of too much choice as I think we've all seen. Too much choice makes it too easy to arrive at an optimal point in the metagame that doesn't move. Another example is the infantry category that is absolutely crushed into the 5 absolutely most optimal picks right now. By having the whole category open with no restrictions, you actually just end up with "hmmm manpads or no manpads?" for each deck because you're straitjacketed by your optimal ATGM and mechanized choices. Support is a similar wasteland right now, you at best have two choices: all infrared/mixed and mortars/howitzers. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jul 29, 2016 |
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Jul 29, 2016 02:47
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Remove CVs from the game and flip zones based on ratio of unit costs in the zone. Make every unit a CV. Flipping call-in zones would be harder to do with a lone commando squad or helo rush but easier to do with a dedicated push than the current system. This way you remove all the loving CV problems, make zone flips more organic, make a team spend 600 points collectively just to buy 4 late '70s Cobras or Hinds if they really really want to helo rush at game start, create a scouting mechanic, and fix a ton of issues with artillery sniping at the same time. Bring back ALB soft caps to deck design, that was the superior system with two years of hindsight now. This would be a "fix Wargame 3" idea, not a red dragon matchmaking patch but I think it hits some of the core problems with the game as it has existed over the last 3 iterations. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 29, 2016 |
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Jul 29, 2016 03:22
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Mazz posted:My suggestion, if you spend more than 66% of your starting income on one unit type, a little icon appears next to your name of that unit type. Apply this for the first 2 minutes of gameplay too so you can't skate around it by deploying after the clock starts. I'll forward this
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Jul 29, 2016 03:24
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:14 |
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Well I gave in and actually played this game again last night and I still love it.
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Jul 29, 2016 18:52
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