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Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

Qwijib0 posted:

It looks like it's possible to identify how the wires are paired-- one white and one black each coming from a sheathed cable. Can you measure between the white and black of each pair with the switch on and off?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but did you want me to do this at the exposed wires from the pic inside my garage or at the flood light box?

Thanks so much for offering to help by the way.

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Qwijib0
Apr 10, 2007

Who needs on-field skills when you can dance like this?

Fun Shoe

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Sorry if this is a dumb question but did you want me to do this at the exposed wires from the pic inside my garage or at the flood light box?

Thanks so much for offering to help by the way.

flood light box. though if it's possible to identify groupings in the garage those meauurements would also be useful, especially if you can identify if the switch operates on a "pair" from one sheath, or goes between pairs.

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

Qwijib0 posted:

flood light box. though if it's possible to identify groupings in the garage those meauurements would also be useful, especially if you can identify if the switch operates on a "pair" from one sheath, or goes between pairs.

OK so just put the Meterman on the black and white wires individually, instead of bothering with ground? So like black to white, one with the red probe one with the black? Does it matter which probe goes to which? :saddowns:

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Is there a specific measurement you want me to retry? I did make sure I triple checked what I was posting was what I found but who knows.

Eh, my money's on "clusterfuck" anyway :v: In addition to what Qwij is saying, you might need to bust open the junction box with the switch you've been flipping and see what's going on in there.

Qwijib0
Apr 10, 2007

Who needs on-field skills when you can dance like this?

Fun Shoe

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

OK so just put the Meterman on the black and white wires individually, instead of bothering with ground? So like black to white, one with the red probe one with the black? Does it matter which probe goes to which? :saddowns:

yes, one probe on black, one probe on white for each pair. Doesn't matter which probe is on which.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Internet comedy forum option: Have GFCI breakers? Touch the black wire to the bare wire, see what trips.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


H110Hawk posted:

Internet comedy forum option: Have GFCI breakers? Touch the black wire to the bare wire, see what trips.

I did that this week at work. "Move some outlets," they said. "Where's the panel?" I asked. "Ammmmmm," was the resounding reply. Cool. So a piece of #10 solid copper between the long and short bit of the plug, and bzzzrrrt-hrrrm and none of the outlets are powered. Call the maintenance guy, "hey our outlets went out." "Yeah, your panel is behind the air compressor in the compressor room next to the telco room."

36.00000" between the panel front and the disconnect for the air compressor. I'm not sure if you're allowed to share electrical work zones, but that's what happened here.


Uncle at Nintendo posted:

So how do I wire it up in this fixture to get this floodlight working, and what should I be wiring up and how in the 3-gang box in my garage? Thank you so much.

Noncomedy response: draw a map with wire labels, post it here, and I'll try to figure out the wiring. Your descriptions are just vague enough that I can't figure it out. It's a logic puzzle, now!

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

slap me silly posted:

you might need to bust open the junction box with the switch you've been flipping and see what's going on in there.

Here are some pics. No clue if it helps. This is the switch and outlet at the front of the garage:





Qwijib0 posted:

It looks like it's possible to identify how the wires are paired-- one white and one black each coming from a sheathed cable. Can you measure between the white and black of each pair with the switch on and off?

babyeatingpsychopath posted:


Noncomedy response: draw a map with wire labels, post it here, and I'll try to figure out the wiring. Your descriptions are just vague enough that I can't figure it out. It's a logic puzzle, now!



OK so with the switch DOWN (remember it is a three way switch so there is no off and on) :

Left black to right black : 0
Left black to left white : 0.3
Left black to right white : 0
Right black to left white : 0
Right black to right white : 0
Left white to right white : 0
When doing those wires to ground: Leftmost black is 117.9 and the second black is zero. First white to the left is .04 and the furthest right white is zero.


With the switch UP :
Left black to right black : 0
Left black to left white: 0
Left black to right white : 0
Right black to left white : 0
Right black to right white : 0
Left white to right white : 0
When doing those wires to ground: Leftmost black is 117.9 and the second black is zero. The left white wire becomes 119.0 and the furthest right white is zero.

This is what is going on in the 3 gang box right behind the flood light fixture, inside the garage:



If I flip the switch to DOWN in the front of the garage, I get these readings on my Meter man (black probe on ground for all of these):

The leftmost white wire says:0.4 as does the leftmost black wire as well. The red wire reads 119.1. The rightmost black wire reads 117.7 and the rightmost white wire reads 0.4.

Now if I flip the switch in the front of the garage UP I get :

leftmost black wire reads 119.2 and the leftmost white wire reads 119.4. The red wire reads 0. The rightmost black wire reads 119.2 and the rightmost white wire reads 120.5.

If someone here somehow manages to help me figure this all out, I am mailing beer to every one of your homes.

Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 2, 2016

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Left black to right black : 0
Leftmost black to ground is 117.9
Right black to ground is zero
This is physically possible only if the right black wire isn't connected to anything on the other end, yeah?

By the way, here are a couple of little clusterfucks you've got going on:




By the way again, please take the time to figure out and show what wires are connected to what. It's not possible to tell for sure from your pictures. What's coming into the box? What's happening at each wire nut? What's getting connected to what on the switch and outlet?

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jul 2, 2016

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

slap me silly posted:

This is physically possible only if the right black wire isn't connected to anything on the other end, yeah?


The only thing I can think of is maybe nothing is connected on the right black wire at all because that's how they are connecting the ceiling light in the garage? By jumping off of the power from the flood light? So I am thinking maybe power is getting to that 3-gang outlet in the back of the garage via the one in the front, and from there the ceiling light is getting its power from the flood light box? Remember that not only can I not get my flood light to work but I can't get the garage ceiling light to work either.

slap me silly posted:


By the way, here are a couple of little clusterfucks you've got going on:

By the way again, please take the time to figure out and show what wires are connected to what. It's not possible to tell for sure from your pictures. What's coming into the box? What's happening at each wire nut? What's getting connected to what on the switch and outlet?

How do I find out what is connected to what? The only thing I can see is what you see in the pics, unfortunately. If I turn off a breaker marked "basement", some of my basement lights go off and all of my garage lights go off (though the auto-door opener works). So all I can figure is that this outlet is jumped off of something in my basement, perhaps. Luckily my basement is unfinished if it somehow helps, let me know.

The pics of what is behind the front outlet/switch is also the only place in my home that has any red wire besides the 3-gang box in the back of my garage, so it has to be a line coming (or going?) from/to the back of the garage to the front. Though I am pretty sure the outlet I opened for the pics are where the power is coming "in" to the garage.

Do you need me to take better pics? Also should I rewire the outlet you have circled?

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
You can get some clues we could use - that box has got a red/white/black coming in, and a black/white coming in. From your pics I can't tell which whites and blacks connect to which thing, but since you're there in person, you can wiggle stuff around and determine that.

You should probably just replace that outlet and that switch - not sure you can get those pointy little firestarter prongs of cut-off backwiring out of there without damage. And yes it should not have two wires on the same screw.

Honestly this seems a little out of your depth even with the help of the interwebz.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Do you need me to take better pics? Also should I rewire the outlet you have circled?

Literally draw (in mspaint) a map. Post that.

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

Literally draw (in mspaint) a map. Post that.

OK, this will take me quite as bit of time (it is going to need to be a pretty large image) but I am working on it now. Thank you :)

slap me silly posted:

You can get some clues we could use - that box has got a red/white/black coming in, and a black/white coming in. From your pics I can't tell which whites and blacks connect to which thing, but since you're there in person, you can wiggle stuff around and determine that.

Sorry about that. I took it apart and got a pic that shows it:





So from above is red, white, black, and ground. Coming from below is just black, white, and ground.

Both blacks are tied together with a wire nut.

I also noticed the 3 way switch was never wired up for ground (no clue if that would cause any of these woes) so I wired it up for ground while replacing the 3 way switch and the outlet:





slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
Have you looked at any three way switch diagrams? Explain to me how the arrangement you have there can possibly be right. Is there voltage on the black/white pair (the ones with no red) when you turn the breaker on?

And you still need to remove that loop - in that situation, pigtail it instead. Make sure you use the right size wire nuts for the number/size of wires in them.

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

slap me silly posted:

Explain to me how the arrangement you have there can possibly be right.

I am definitely not under the impression the wiring is right; that's why I am assuming I have a problem :v:

slap me silly posted:

Is there voltage on the black/white pair (the ones with no red) when you turn the breaker on?

Yes, there is power there. That is the outlet at the front of my garage; never had a problem with it.

slap me silly posted:

And you still need to remove that loop - in that situation, pigtail it instead. Make sure you use the right size wire nuts for the number/size of wires in them.

OK, I pigtailed it with wire nuts.

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
So my guess - may be wrong - is that this should be wired up like the leftmost switch here:



But, this sort of depends on things being right at the other switch and the light as well. Also I'm not completely sure this is the only way it could work.

Keep an eye on your connections - you want the wire to wrap about 3/4 around the screw, and have it long enough that the insulation isn't under the screw but short enough that bare wire isn't exposed past the back of the box.

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jul 3, 2016

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy
OK as requested, here is my terrible MS Paint showing exactly what is going on



help

Brute Squad
Dec 20, 2006

Laughter is the sun that drives winter from the human race


The electrical tape around the outlet threw me. I thought it was two wires going to the screw too. That's, uh, quite creative.

I take it that electrical taping outlets/switches/etc like above is not recommended.

Uncle, is there a junction box of any kind between the interior lights and the 3 gang box?

Brute Squad fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jul 3, 2016

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
Ah. Here is a plausible wiring diagram that would make a lot of sense:



But there are reasons that it doesn't quite click: (1) there was power at the back of the garage on the line that I think is going to the lights - how did that happen? (2) Why is there a 3-gang box there? (3) Who puts the indoor and outdoor lights on the same circuit?

Are there any other junction boxes or switches or outlets or fixtures that could be involved here?

With all the switches and outlets and fixtures removed, do you get power anywhere except the black/white pair at the front of the garage?

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 3, 2016

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

kelvron posted:

The electrical tape around the outlet threw me. I thought it was two wires going to the screw too. That's, uh, quite creative.

I take it that electrical taping outlets/switches/etc like above is not recommended.

Uncle, is there a junction box of any kind between the interior lights and the 3 gang box?

I am a bit confused by this as the photos you quoted have no electrical tape in them at all. But if you are referring to the "before" photo, yeah that had electrical tape around the screw terminals and from what I know (not a lot) that is quite common as a method to prevent any type of possible bridging in the future (or maybe just when being pushed back in). I may be completely wrong of course.

kelvron posted:

Uncle, is there a junction box of any kind between the interior lights and the 3 gang box?

Nope!

The interior lights and the 3 gang box are right near each other. Like if you are looking at the 3 gang box I just look up that wall and over 2 feet and there's the interior lights.

slap me silly posted:

(2) Why is there a 3-gang box there?

My guess is one outlet for plugging stuff in and 2 switches (one for the flood light, one for the ceiling light). I can pretty much confirm this as I found the old wall plate and that's what it had spots for.

One of the switches I am guessing is a regular switch just for the floodlight, and the other switch is a 3-way (probably the one for the ceiling light in the garage since it makes way more sense that someone would want to be able to turn that on and off from the front of the garage as well as the back of the garage).

slap me silly posted:

(3) Who puts the indoor and outdoor lights on the same circuit?

It makes sense to me because the outdoor light (flood light) is literally right above and outside where the 3-gang box is, and is controlled by an indoor switch. That is why I am guessing they are on the same circuit (but maybe I am reading your question wrong).


slap me silly posted:

With all the switches and outlets and fixtures removed, do you get power anywhere except the black/white pair at the front of the garage?

OK so I did as you asked and this is what I found: with all the outlets and fixtures removed, I only get power in the 3-gang box as follows: 118.1 on the rightmost black wire in the 3-gang box.

All others, including the red, are dead when I unhooked everything at the front of the garage. Just the rightmost black wire has power in the back of the garage after doing that.

Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 3, 2016

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
Edit: right != left. Let me draw up my next guess



This still doesn't make sense, though, because the (1) fixtures can't be controlled separately and (2) there's no way to make the three way switch work and also provide constant power to the outlet at the front.

Just to clarify, you mean that with everything disconnected there's no power anywhere except that one wire in the three gang box? No power in the front?

Electrical tape around the screws is a bit of a religious thing, google up some electrician forum threads about it some time if you're bored. It's unnecessary if you wire carefully, it's inconvenient, and it makes a mess, is why I don't do it.

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jul 3, 2016

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

slap me silly posted:

Edit: right != left. Let me draw up my next guess



This still doesn't make sense, though, because the (1) fixtures can't be controlled separately and (2) there's no way to make the three way switch work and also provide constant power to the outlet at the front.

Just to clarify, you mean that with everything disconnected there's no power anywhere except that one wire in the three gang box? No power in the front?

The front still gets power; sorry, you only asked about the 3 gang box.

With everything disconnected, in the front of the garage, the black wire shows power. With everything still disconnected, in the back of the garage in the 3 gang box, the rightmost black wire shows power.

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
No, I meant everything, not just the 3 gang box. This is why it's difficult and dangerous to get electrical wiring advice from the internet when you have no idea what you're doing. You keep giving pieces of the picture while leaving out critical information.

So far it seems that none of the wires in the switch boxes at the front or back of the garage go to your floodlight. A possible exception is that the floodlight has a box-on-top-of-a-box the way the front outlet did, but it doesn't look that way. I think we also need to see what's in the junction box at the overhead light.

Oh, and just to be completely clear, I meant, where do you see power when every wire is disconnected in every box? All at once. Is that the question you answered?

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jul 3, 2016

minivanmegafun
Jul 27, 2004

I believe we're way past the point of saying "just hire an electrician, you're going to burn your garage down."

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

slap me silly posted:

No, I meant everything, not just the 3 gang box.

That IS everything.

With everything disconnected

in the front of the garage : only power is going to the black wire.

In the back of the garage : only power to the rightmost black wire.

Edit: also I am not sure why were are assuming that the front switch doesn't go to the flood light because I took readings with the switch up and down and it changes in the flood light depending on it being up or down

Maybe the ceiling light is tapped into the flood light, but the flood light itself isn't affected by the front switch but the ceiling light, also in the flood light fixture, is?

Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 3, 2016

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

That IS everything.

With everything disconnected

in the front of the garage : only power is going to the black wire.

In the back of the garage : only power to the rightmost black wire.

Edit: also I am not sure why were are assuming that the front switch doesn't go to the flood light because I took readings with the switch up and down and it changes in the flood light depending on it being up or down

Maybe the ceiling light is tapped into the flood light, but the flood light itself isn't affected by the front switch but the ceiling light, also in the flood light fixture, is?
You have two boxes with red/black/white wire coming in. Either it's two ends of the same wire, in which case it doesn't go to the lights, or it's ends of two different wires, in which case we haven't seen everything yet because there are no other red wires in evidence. Since things were connected up in some unknown ways when you were flipping switches, it's impossible to know what might have been happening then. Guessing maybe this, maybe that is gonna get your house burned down if you act on it before you know what's going on.


minivanmegafun posted:

I believe we're way past the point of saying "just hire an electrician, you're going to burn your garage down."
Indeed. I think it's been said at least 3 times now.


Uncle at Nintendo posted:

in the front of the garage : only power is going to the black wire.
Which black wire?? You have got to be precise!

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 3, 2016

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy

slap me silly posted:


Which black wire?? You have got to be precise!

The one coming up from below. So the one that DOES NOT have a red along with it. So the right black.

edit: I know you are getting frustrated with me, but in all fairness you did ask me that already and I answered, so I might have been confused as to why you asked again

slap me silly posted:

Is there voltage on the black/white pair (the ones with no red) when you turn the breaker on?


Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Yes, there is power there. That is the outlet at the front of my garage; never had a problem with it.

Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 3, 2016

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

edit: I know you are getting frustrated with me, but in all fairness you did ask me that already and I answered, so I might have been confused as to why you asked again

You should physically label every individual wire. (Not "the black ones" or "the black one without the red one".) Just number them with a piece of masking tape. Take pictures. Then label your mspaint. People are talking past each other in here with only vague ideas of pronoun labeled wires. You're the only one who is going to get electrocuted to death while your house burns down around you if you get it wrong hoping you agree on which "black" wire you're talking about when there are a dozen of them.

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer

H110Hawk posted:

Then label/number your mspaint.

This especially. You're there in person, it's much easier for you to tell what's what vs. trying to puzzle out bits from a photo. What you have now on the mspaint is clear for the most part, except that I want the black/whites in the flood light box arranged in pairs according to how they come in, which I'm pretty sure you could determine with a little poking around. But yeah, some numbers on there too would help immensely.

Unfortunately it was hosed up when you got it, so you are really having to go back to basics and map out every single thing. Based on what you've said so far I'm pretty sure you're gonna stay stumped until you open up the ceiling light fixture. At least. Write down how it's connected now before you disconnect everything.

Here's another assumption I've been making without realizing it: Have you been leaving all the grounds connected everywhere while you've been making the voltage measurements relative to the ground wires?

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 3, 2016

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaVM5mD1lO8

H110Hawk posted:

You should physically label every individual wire. (Not "the black ones" or "the black one without the red one".) Just number them with a piece of masking tape. Take pictures. Then label your mspaint. People are talking past each other in here with only vague ideas of pronoun labeled wires. You're the only one who is going to get electrocuted to death while your house burns down around you if you get it wrong hoping you agree on which "black" wire you're talking about when there are a dozen of them.

slap me silly posted:

This especially. You're there in person, it's much easier for you to tell what's what vs. trying to puzzle out bits from a photo. What you have now on the mspaint is clear for the most part, except that I want the black/whites in the flood light box arranged in pairs according to how they come in, which I'm pretty sure you could determine with a little poking around. But yeah, some numbers on there too would help immensely.

OK, I will take all the wires out and number them. It will take a little time though as taking apart that front box again and putting it back together takes a bit of time along with labeling everything; I only get like 30 actual minutes of free time this week per day with my messed up work schedule so please don't think I am being lazy. I will get to it this week though. But if anyone wants me to try something that will only take a couple minutes I have a bit of time every morning at like 3 AM I can do it so just ask. Anyway I will do the labeling on Wednesday only because it's the first day I will be able to. So I can do it sooner though, can I just label everything with MS paint? Unless I am missing something, is it absolutely necessary that I label them with masking tape? Of course I will if I have to; it will just take me a few days to be able to do it. I didn't know if there was a difference than me just doing it in Photoshop or Paint.

And for anyone worrying about me burning my house down, I also use my garage for trapping stray cats (to have them fixed and re-released or adopted) so I have a motion-sensing camera in the garage that sends alerts to my phone. So I'll see poo poo going down way before the smoke detector would even know about it. :v:

In all seriousness the fact that two lighting fixtures don't work makes me more worried than me messing something up; it's already messed up and has been like this for a while until I finally got a bug up my rear end about wanting to fix it (sick and tired of not having light in my backyard or in my garage). And so far, no fires even with the wiring clearly being wired incorrectly for a long time. Trust me, I want this messed up wiring fixed; I just am being stubborn about doing it myself for some reason (personal accomplishment) .

slap me silly posted:

Here's another assumption I've been making without realizing it: Have you been leaving all the grounds connected everywhere while you've been making the voltage measurements relative to the ground wires?

Yes I was. Was that correct? I never even thought about disconnecting the grounds honestly.

Also I showed this thread to a friend and he seems to think he stumbled upon something (I of course would like opinions here). He reminded me of the fact that the floodlight should always have 120v going to it because the motion sensor requires power at all times in order to tell the light to "turn on". Makes sense, kind of like how a TV is always using power to look for an IR signal. Anyway, the reason it might be of some importance is that in my flood light fixture, one of the black wires always has 120v, and one of the white wires only gets 120v when the switch in the front of the garage is flipped. He thinks that means the alternating white must be for the ceiling light and he proposed I do this:



He seems to think the wiring mess-up is in this flood light box. Which would make sense because I get power to the flood light box, but neither the flood light or ceiling light works. Previously I have no idea how the flood light was wired up; it was removed and white was wire nutted to white and black was wire nutted to black. He seems to think me doing the above image will fix all of this. Just wondering if it makes sense to anyone or not.

Thanks again for all the help so far. :shobon:

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

can I just label everything with MS paint?
Works for me. The tape is just to help you keep it straight. Especially in the flood light box.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Yes I was. Was that correct? I never even thought about disconnecting the grounds honestly.
Yes, whew. Having a ground wire disconnected would mess up the whole concept of using those wires to measure w.r.t. ground. Still a good idea to measure across all the matching black/white pairs as well.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

the floodlight should always have 120v going to it because the motion sensor requires power
Ooh, good thought. Oh, and my outdoor light has a switch to it and you use the switch to turn the motion sensing on and off, or to, you know, turn the loving light off when you don't want it coming on. So, this isn't guaranteed situation. And, I would not wire anything back up until I knew where all the wires went, which it seems you don't yet. There are still a lot of ways it could be hosed up.

slap me silly fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jul 4, 2016

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

OK, I will take all the wires out and number them. It will take a little time though as taking apart that front box again and putting it back together takes a bit of time along with labeling everything; I only get like 30 actual minutes of free time this week per day with my messed up work schedule so please don't think I am being lazy.

Thanks again for all the help so far. :shobon:

I have nothing constructive to add, other than dealing with remote troubleshooting at work has given me a keen eye for accidental pronouning of specific items, which is why I suggest the tape. Talking on the phone asking someone which port they are about to unplug and they say "this one" and point at it. We've sent them a tablet with a camera and gotomeeting installed. Now they can point all they want because we can see it. The labels guarantee neither you nor the other posters here can accidentally talk about a different wire, which will hopefully lead to net shorter troubleshooting time.

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius
Wire tracing tip: cut power to the circuit, then take a 9v battery, and tape/alligator clip one battery terminal to ground and the other battery terminal to mystery wire. Go around to all the other exposed ends and see which ones have a 9v potential with ground. Repeat until all wires have been identified.

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002

Zhentar posted:

Wire tracing tip: cut power to the circuit, then take a 9v battery, and tape/alligator clip one battery terminal to ground and the other battery terminal to mystery wire. Go around to all the other exposed ends and see which ones have a 9v potential with ground. Repeat until all wires have been identified.

I always make sure that the breaker is turned off, then twist wires together and use a continuity test on my multimeter.

Chumbawumba4ever97
Dec 31, 2000

by Fluffdaddy
Both of those ideas are incredible (I might do the 9v method since I don't know if I have that much wire to run across the garage to check for continuity but either way, again, those are brilliant ideas for me to figure out exactly which wire goes where. I will disconnect all the outlets and do all of this on the next day that I am not working 16 hour shifts, which should be this Friday. Then I will be able to post exactly what the hell is going on. Thanks!

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Both of those ideas are incredible (I might do the 9v method since I don't know if I have that much wire to run across the garage to check for continuity but either way, again, those are brilliant ideas for me to figure out exactly which wire goes where. I will disconnect all the outlets and do all of this on the next day that I am not working 16 hour shifts, which should be this Friday. Then I will be able to post exactly what the hell is going on. Thanks!

Umm, you don't need any extra wire with the continuity method. You untwist all the wires everywhere first, then twist one black and white pair together, then go around to other boxes and try a continuity test on a matching black and white. Once found, label both ends of that run where the other end is and move onto the next pair. It gets faster the more you identify since there are fewer candidates.

Edit: whichever method you use, keep in mind that you'll eventually find at least one and possibly more cable pairs that can't pass either test. You will definitely find the up branch (or source) pair. If that area isn't the end of the branch, then you may have one or more down branch connections.

kid sinister fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jul 6, 2016

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Both of those ideas are incredible (I might do the 9v method since I don't know if I have that much wire to run across the garage to check for continuity but either way, again, those are brilliant ideas for me to figure out exactly which wire goes where. I will disconnect all the outlets and do all of this on the next day that I am not working 16 hour shifts, which should be this Friday. Then I will be able to post exactly what the hell is going on. Thanks!

Here's another incredible idea: open the loving ceiling light so that these tricks can actually help you

Ralphus
Dec 15, 2003
I looked through some of this thread and didn’t see anything addressing this exact issue, my apologies if this has already been covered.

Almost 2 years ago we bought a 1950s ranch-style house in Duluth MN. It had never had any updates done to it so I’ve been doing some work to it as time permits. We found out *after* buying it that all of the 3-prong outlets in the house had a wire running from the neutral hole on the back to the ground lug/ screw, which means that the inspector’s circuit tester showed things as properly grounded when in reality they aren’t. We’re replacing these outlets with new 2-prong outlets that I bought at Menard’s as the majority of these outlets are just used for lamps and other 2-prong things. I ran some new wire through the basement and up through the walls and installed old-work boxes and properly grounded outlets for things like the stereo/ TV, our computers, things like that. I also installed some GFCIs where the refrigerator plugs in, in the basement, etc.

So, here’s the issue/ question at hand. The inspection report says the house is only grounded through the cold water plumbing and nowhere else. However, I replaced a big chunk of our galvanized plumbing with PEX because the galvanized was so corroded right where the water line enters the house that there was very little flow/ pressure. Obviously when I disconnected the cold water line there was no longer a ground path from the breaker box. I was going to run a heavy wire temporarily from the water line entry to the box and then have an electrician bond the box or whatever outside, but when I plug a circuit tester into the 3-prong outlets I installed it shows they’re grounded. The surge protectors I have plugged into these outlets also show grounded and my UPS does as well. There doesn’t appear to be anything going from the meter outside into the ground.

Am I overlooking something here? Is this correct or is something amiss? I don’t want our house to burn down so if necessary I’ll have an electrician take a look at it, I just wanted to see if I’m missing something obvious.

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius
As you observed, a basic circuit tester just measures continuity between the ground and neutral pins. Since your grounds and neutrals are supposed to be bonded in the main panel, that does not tell you anything at all about whether or not you have an appropriate grounding electrode.

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Ralphus
Dec 15, 2003

Zhentar posted:

As you observed, a basic circuit tester just measures continuity between the ground and neutral pins. Since your grounds and neutrals are supposed to be bonded in the main panel, that does not tell you anything at all about whether or not you have an appropriate grounding electrode.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. I'm waiting on a call from an electrician, might have them install a whole-house surge protector as well as a grounding electrode. I just wanted to confirm before I had someone come out, thanks!

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