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Do it ironically posted:lol do some people really think that it's racist to call out BLM for pulling a dickhead stunt? Welcome to D&D my friend.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:38
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EvilJoven posted:Has anyone here said anything yet about the general nasty attitude of the black community towards LGBT people and the fact that a black LGBT person is way more likely to get curb stomped by a regular black person while the rest turn a blind eye than by a cop? If you are neither black nor queer this is an incredibly thorny issue to broach, and with good reason. It almost universally comes across as the same kind of insincere moral opportunism as "black people are actually really racist" and "ah bloo bloo why isn't there a straight pride parade?" There's a really important history of intersection between black activism and queer activism. If there's major social hostility and danger for people who are both black and queer, I think we community-minded queer people have a definite responsibility to do something about that, regardless of which community (black or queer) is the primary source of that discrimination. Black people have also never abused institutional power to beat us to a pulp with impunity so uh, you don't really know what you're talking about and should probably step back.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:42
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Alright I just give up trying to understand you Toronto people https://twitter.com/BLM_TO/status/749787494590316544
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Jul 4, 2016 17:50
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Ikantski posted:Alright I just give up trying to understand you Toronto people The more I read about BLMTO lately the more I think their top organizers are either totally nuts or just media-seeking opportunists. That doesn't invalidate everything the organization itself is saying, but it's a real drat shame that genuinely important social issues are getting lost by the wayside amidst a confusing shitshow of grandstanding and garbled messaging. Like... they were so close. Pride was a perfect, appropriate time to raise their voices, and they had relevant complaints and the core of an important message. But they botched the delivery pretty badly, their founders have apparently been implicated in a nasty controversy or two, and now everyone's determined to write every last one of them off as shock artists or something 
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Jul 4, 2016 17:59
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I more or less agree with Zizek that "the left" is mostly tearing itself apart and distracting itself with infinitely regressing fractals of identity politics. This is from 2001 but it's an interesting read. https://ecpr.eu/Filestore/PaperProposal/a6092ba9-cde1-4532-b8f0-53240879bd39.pdf Another interesting read on identity politics. https://thecharnelhouse.org/2013/12/07/whats-wrong-with-identity-politics-and-intersectionality-theory/ "But operating under the same schema as a more simplified identity politics, intersectionality theory serves to isolate multiple and seemingly endless identity standpoints, without sufficiently articulating them with each other, or the forms of domination. The upshot in political practice is a static pluralism of reified social categories, each vying for more-subaltern-than-thou status on a field of one-downsmanship. While it may be useful for sociologists attempting to describe groups and their struggles with power, as a political theory, it is useless, or worse. This is because, by ending with the identification and isolation of its various constituencies, it in fact serves to sever the connections that it supposedly sought to understand and strengthen. The practical upshot of intersectionality theory is the perpetual articulation of difference, resulting in fragmentation and the stagnation of political activity " Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 18:01
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Angry Diplomat posted:The more I read about BLMTO lately the more I think their top organizers are either totally nuts or just media-seeking opportunists. I think it's mostly the latter with a dash of the former, they just want to yell and be heard? Not even metaphorically, I mean literally. When they were protesting at Queen's park, Wynne came out and said she'd talk to the leader and this was the discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCcxVYMdK14&t=13s Is being a professional activist a thing? I don't get what their endgame is.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:06
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Ikantski posted:Alright I just give up trying to understand you Toronto people An ethnic minority uses dancing and music to celebrate itself and to maintain positive atmosphere and energy despite facing systematic racism and poverty. I don't get why that's weird? Is it also weird to you when Irish or Jewish or Quebecois people treat the preservation of a distinctive culture as a form of resistance against the dominant culture in which they exist? This is pretty unremarkable from a cultural anthropology perspective. Of all the questionable statements or ideas that you could tie to BLM this one seems really innocuous. Is it just because 'twerking' is a comparatively recent thing that we're supposed to associate with Miley Cyrus instead of a "real" form of cultural expression? Because pretty much all dance is pretty drat stupid and arbitrary if you think about it objectively, I don't think twerking stands out as unusual.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:12
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Ikantski posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCcxVYMdK14&t=13s drat, check out the comments on that video. Where are all of these trash tier Canadians coming from?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:14
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I drink wine coolers as cultural resistance to support my Irish heritage.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:18
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have you guys never heard of jaggi singh
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Jul 4, 2016 18:21
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Angry Diplomat posted:I'm not certain I follow. Can you elaborate? Statements like: Angry Diplomat posted:I mean, that's great, but are you queer? Pinterest Mom posted:Then, you know, it's really cute that you [as a straight person] think you get to have an opinion over who gets to be included in the parade, but you don't. ... sound nice and empowering but also suggests that there is something essential to the queer experience that immediately justifies a queer person's opinion and disqualifies a straight person's, or that queer people have access to special knowledge that is inaccessible to straights. I don't think that stands up to much scrutiny. Take, for example, a TERF lesbian who doesn't think gay trans women should be allowed in the dyke march. Is her opinion more valid than a straight cisgendered trans ally? What about a gay cis-male's opinion? He's queer but he's not a lesbian; is the TERFs opinion more legitimate than his? What about a bisexual woman in a hetero relationship who's been sheltered by privilege all her life, is she entitled to have her voice heard? If not, then are we saying only queer opinions are valid, or only the right opinions by the right types of queer people? It's a stupid way of thinking that's more about policing borders and maintaining in-group purity than it is about achieving anything in the wider culture.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:24
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Baronjutter posted:I more or less agree with Zizek that "the left" is mostly tearing itself apart and distracting itself with infinitely regressing fractals of identity politics. This is from 2001 but it's an interesting read. I was resistant to this view for a long time but I've found it harder and harder to deny altogether over the last couple years. That having been said, you open yourself up to a lot of obvious rebuttles when you couch your comment in such sweeping terms. There are reasons, some of them pretty good, why the older movement orient left split into so many divergent paths and without some awareness of that history you'll end up coming off as though you're saying "we were better off back when people just like me were in charge of the movement." Ikantski posted:I think it's mostly the latter with a dash of the former, they just want to yell and be heard? Not even metaphorically, I mean literally. When they were protesting at Queen's park, Wynne came out and said she'd talk to the leader and this was the discussion. There are environments -- certain university departments, certain corners of twitter and tumblr, certain social circles -- where performative outrage of this kind is rewarded. There's a lot of selection pressures that would encourage young people of a certain generation of activists to adopt this kind of attitude. I've also noticed this growing fetishization in some corners of the internet with a kind of internet-tough-guy activism where you constantly harp on about how you're drinking the tears of your opponents and reveling in how mad they are. It seems to tie in with the rise of the internet and you see a similar attitude among plenty of liberals and alt-right folks but it stands out a lot more among vaguely lefty types because it's so completely in-congruent with the stated values or aims of the traditional left. While these groups do seize on real grievances and problems with society, I think there's a growing realization that a lot of the identity politics and privilege based discourse on the internet has become a social technology for dominating conversations, signalling your membership in the in-group and generally shutting down conversations you don't approve of. The backlash is already building and I imagine things are going to get a lot uglier in the future.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:24
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PT6A please start a beer derail to get us on the right track
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Jul 4, 2016 18:25
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Helsing posted:An ethnic minority uses dancing and music to celebrate itself and to maintain positive atmosphere and energy despite facing systematic racism and poverty. I don't get why that's weird? Is it also weird to you when Irish or Jewish or Quebecois people treat the preservation of a distinctive culture as a form of resistance against the dominant culture in which they exist? This is pretty unremarkable from a cultural anthropology perspective. Of all the questionable statements or ideas that you could tie to BLM this one seems really innocuous. Is it just because 'twerking' is a comparatively recent thing that we're supposed to associate with Miley Cyrus instead of a "real" form of cultural expression? Because pretty much all dance is pretty drat stupid and arbitrary if you think about it objectively, I don't think twerking stands out as unusual. I agree there's a real Alvin Ailey feeling to flopping your rear end around against the machine
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Jul 4, 2016 18:25
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Do it ironically posted:I agree there's a real Alvin Ailey feeling to flopping your rear end around against the machine If you strip away all sentimentality and examine any dance from a purely objective and logical standpoint it's going to look pretty drat stupid.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:28
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Helsing posted:I don't get why that's weird? It's the "as resistance" bit that made it incomprehensible. Without that, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. Isn't twerking really popular and kind of encouraged? I dunno. I think they wanted to post a video of their sweet party but every single thing they do has to be some kind of social justice movement. Quebecois, Irish people and Jews would just tweet about eating poutine, drinking beer or getting circumcisions without having to point out that they're doing it as resistance. Helsing posted:The backlash is already building and I imagine things are going to get a lot uglier in the future. One day we'll be explaining to our kids how trolling used to just be an internet thing. Maybe we'll see the rise of the militant moderates.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:36
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Helsing posted:If you strip away all sentimentality and examine any dance from a purely objective and logical standpoint it's going to look pretty drat stupid. except I could objectively watch a classic ballet without sound and come away that it has great body movement, athletic leaps and turns, and solid facial expressions by the dancers just as i could objectively watch a modern interpretive dance or twerk and say how stupid it looks
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Jul 4, 2016 18:45
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I kind of get the sense that BLMTO is legitimately surprised that in general their demands keep getting met and they're just kind of flailing around a bit not quite knowing what to do. Like, there's going to be a coroners inquest into the Loku shooting, carding was cracked down, the city is going to do a review of TPS through an "anti-black racism lens". I mean it's not perfect, but compared to the US where there's all this resistance to literally anything BLM asks and they're getting demonized by the right as this horrible threat. Which is why now lack of black trans ASL interpreters is apparently an issue of the day?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:45
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Pinterest Mom posted:Do you have any reason to believe they're not, or are you just being snarky and self-satisfied? What proportion of the TPS participants were queer, or genuine allies?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:47
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Rap music is objectively bad because they do not have technical signing skills or hit the correct notes, in fact they're mostly just talking and, objectively, their grammar is often objectively incorrect.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:47
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Helsing posted:There are environments -- certain university departments, certain corners of twitter and tumblr, certain social circles -- where performative outrage of this kind is rewarded. There's a lot of selection pressures that would encourage young people of a certain generation of activists to adopt this kind of attitude. I've also noticed this growing fetishization in some corners of the internet with a kind of internet-tough-guy activism where you constantly harp on about how you're drinking the tears of your opponents and reveling in how mad they are. I think this is an issue broadly too. With disability activism, most people will agree that wheelchair ramps should be more common, but it's a fair leap from that to cochlear implants as Deaf Genocide. Likewise the leap from Gay marriage to the Cotton Ceiling.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:51
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Do it ironically posted:objectively watch  the view from nowhere as pointed at ballet?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:54
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http://globalnews.ca/news/2801530/black-lives-matter-toronto-defends-sit-in-police-float-ban-at-pride-parade/quote:Pride Toronto is denying it has agreed to ban police floats from its parades, saying it has committed only to having a “conversation” about the controversial demand made by Black Lives Matter after the group staged a sit-in that held up Sunday’s march and angered the police union. lmao owned
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Jul 4, 2016 19:06
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BLM_TO thought that Facebook Maybe was a hard Yes.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:07
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/gay-cop-black-lives-matter-letter-1.3663323quote:Dear Pride Toronto,
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Jul 4, 2016 19:12
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It's totally okay for straight people to join in pride. Remember to take lots of pictures and Instragram them with the hashtag #LGBQTAlly so people know how PROGRESSIVE you are. It's not like you are appropriating anyone elses culture.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:12
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the trump tutelage posted:Statements like: You should probably take into account that my quote there was a run-up to gently pointing out that someone might not have the perspective needed to fully understand the motivations behind the position he was arguing against, and that the other quote was basically empty snark. People running their mouths about things they absolutely don't understand is a very real and very frustrating constant in any public discussion, and those being spoken over have every right to be frustrated by it. TERFs tend to range from misguided kids swallowing harmful ideology to astonishingly vicious, predatory people who relentlessly harass and demonize some of our most vulnerable peers; their leadership is complete poo poo, they are harmful to the queer community, and I don't think its possible to use them as a comparative example in a good-faith discussion. I'm not totally sure where the rest of your weird identity politics wedge argument is coming from, to be frank. It seems like a bit of a non-sequitur at this point.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:26
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David Corbett posted:Regardless of the rightness of their opinions, it's pretty hard to imagine BLM Toronto coming out of this looking good. Judging by public opinion on this matter, their victory is Pyrhhic at best. Really? Have you consulted the public in this matter? Did you conduct a poll? Everyone agreed BLM's demands were spot-on and Toronto Pride signed off on them on the spot. Except for the Toronto Police Service, who say they are upset because they are being excluded from "an event that is supposed to be so inclusive." MA-Horus posted:So are LGBTQ2S TPS officers now banned from Pride? That doesn't seem right. They are still welcome to attend, just not on duty in uniform on a float about how great the police are. I applaud BLM TO for turning an unflattering spotlight on white cis het "allies" who have Very Important Opinions about pride and how it should run and who should be included. Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 19:31
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Jul 4, 2016 19:41
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Ikantski posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCcxVYMdK14&t=13s The woman that they interviewed during the latter half of that clip, Sandy Hudson, basically stole $277k from the University of Toronto student union right before leaving: http://thevarsity.ca/2015/09/24/utsu-sues-former-executive-director-president-vice-president-internal-and-services/ Highlights: 2 years of salary for dismissal + over 2500 hours of overtime, conveniently all filed for right after being dismissed
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Jul 4, 2016 19:43
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Ambrose Burnside posted:is it really so loving hard for us straight people to stop doing lovely queer entryisms and watering pillars of the lgbt struggle down into some godawful hey-me-too-this-is-cool horseshit. not everything has to be ours, no matter how 'cool' it is 
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Jul 4, 2016 19:43
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Angry Diplomat posted:You should probably take into account that my quote there was a run-up to gently pointing out that someone might not have the perspective needed to fully understand the motivations behind the position he was arguing against, and that the other quote was basically empty snark. People running their mouths about things they absolutely don't understand is a very real and very frustrating constant in any public discussion, and those being spoken over have every right to be frustrated by it. Didn't mean to sound snarky on my end though, sorry. Baronjutter's post/sources captured my specific complaints about identity politics much better than my bad post did, though: Baronjutter posted:I more or less agree with Zizek that "the left" is mostly tearing itself apart and distracting itself with infinitely regressing fractals of identity politics. This is from 2001 but it's an interesting read.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:51
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I'll just stop going with my queer friends to Pride and taking it over apparently.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:54
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My post wasn't empty snark. Pride is a queer space. I'm not interested in hearing straight peoples' opinions about how we should run it. There's a debate to be had about inclusion or exclusion of groups like police in Pride, but we've got it covered without y'all's opinions and concerns about tactics or respectability.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:54
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The only people torn apart over this are the police, and supporters of the police and authoritarians. IE: people upset that a parade against oppression was temporarily delayed while the people at the head of the parade took a moment to protest their oppression.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:55
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Pinterest Mom posted:My post wasn't empty snark. Pride is a queer space. I'm not interested in hearing straight peoples' opinions about how we should run it. There's a debate to be had about inclusion or exclusion of groups like police in Pride, but we've got it covered without y'all's opinions and concerns about tactics or respectability. I'd get the silencing tactics if this were the fabgoon thread and a bunch of cis het shitlords were invading, but this is the CanPol Megathread.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:01
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Trump tutelage I get that you think "the gays" are being pushed around and "strong-armed" by these tribalistic dark skinned thugs and we need Allies to swoop in and play referee but we're actually fine, no really, we don't need your assistance here.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:01
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the trump tutelage posted:Then answer the question. Does "we" mean all queer people or just the right-thinking kind? You know, I think you might be dumb.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:02
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Pinterest Mom posted:You know, I think you might be dumb. That's not an answer. Are you perhaps wishing, deep inside, that you had silencing powers over trump tutelage again? That you could quash his wrongthink? That you could suppress such a ... problematic viewpoint?
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Jul 4, 2016 20:03
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THC posted:Trump tutelage I get that you think "the gays" are being pushed around and "strong-armed" by these tribalistic dark skinned thugs and we need Allies to swoop in and play referee but we're actually fine, no really, we don't need your assistance here.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:05
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