Ardennes posted:I just checked and Slovenia's GDP per capita in PPP terms is 31k and Greece is 26k, he is completely wrong by a wide margin. You are right, I should not have trusted Wikipedia as a data source. But the fact that their GDP is down is not really surprising given that it nearly tripled over the ten years before the crisis and if you compare their GDP today with the GDP they had when they adopted the Euro it's still up by 27% (PPP). Lagotto posted:I have no idea where your narrative is based upon, it is really the other way around, southern Europe's bubbles popping triggered a European wide recession. The underlying economic fundamentals up north are better though, so they were less effected. It's the Dolchstoß-Legend of the Left that it were German banks that got bailed out while the South had to bear the costs. It's not like the Spanish bailout fund was strictly limited to bailing out Spanish banks and most of the German banks that were bailed out by the state already repaid their bailout loans.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 21:29 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 08:55 |
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It's a sign of interesting times ahead when German apologists start talking about enforcing a German hegemony by force of arms.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 21:34 |
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Charlie Mopps posted:GDP is the dumbest number, no matter if its per capita or not. Here in the Netherlands politicians are starting to look at alternative ways to define if the country is getting richer, because they are finally realizing that GDP is a completely worthless number. We've been hearing about GDP growth over here for the past few years but if people dont notice it in their paychecks, who the gently caress cares about it. National Happiness
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 21:37 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Why would you believe that France, without the US and UK, who are both no (longer) members of the EU, would stand a chance against Germany? The UK is a member of the EU.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 21:38 |
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GaussianCopula posted:It's the Dolchstoß-Legend of the Left that it were German banks that got bailed out while the South had to bear the costs. It's not like the Spanish bailout fund was strictly limited to bailing out Spanish banks and most of the German banks that were bailed out by the state already repaid their bailout loans. Reuters posted:
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 21:51 |
Yes, all banks are interconnected and if the Spanish banking system goes tits up that would have serious implications for the German (and pretty much every other European) banking system. And now that Italy wants to do the same thing, which is no longer allowed and Germany wants Italy to follow the rules and bail-in the creditors, Germany is the bad guy again, because they want people to stick by the rules. You really can't have it both ways.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:05 |
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Charlie Mopps posted:GDP is the dumbest number, no matter if its per capita or not. Here in the Netherlands politicians are starting to look at alternative ways to define if the country is getting richer, because they are finally realizing that GDP is a completely worthless number. We've been hearing about GDP growth over here for the past few years but if people dont notice it in their paychecks, who the gently caress cares about it. That's easy, just do GDP for the bottom 80%.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:10 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes, all banks are interconnected YF-23 posted:That's easy, just do GDP for the bottom 80%.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:13 |
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Libluini posted:They win because Germany is on their side More like because they don't have broomsticks instead of rifles and machineguns.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:14 |
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YF-23 posted:That's easy, just do GDP for the bottom 80%. Or divide it by GINI.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:14 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes, all banks are interconnected and if the Spanish banking system goes tits up that would have serious implications for the German (and pretty much every other European) banking system. Spanish and German banks were interconnected because of the 113 billion euro German banks lent to Spanish banks, not because of 2008-style contagion. Spanish banks did stupid poo poo in fueling a real estate bubble, as did Irish banks, in Portugal and Greece they stupidly lent to the government. Dutch and German and French banks in turn stupidly lent to those banks in turn (as well as putting their money in American toxic assets). The ECB stupidly failed to do anything about this, while member state governments also failed broadly in macroprudential regulation and supervision. There's a whole lot of blame to share and everybody is guilty. But unless you think German banks in 2012 were capable of surviving another 100-billion euro writedown, a bailout of Spanish banks in effect was equally a bailout of German (and French) banks. GaussianCopula posted:And now that Italy wants to do the same thing, which is no longer allowed and Germany wants Italy to follow the rules and bail-in the creditors, Germany is the bad guy again, because they want people to stick by the rules. Rules are sometimes stupid and it would have been great if the EU had left more room for principles-based banking supervision. No Italian bank is currently at immediate risk of collapse, and the current 'crisis' is more of a result of a mismatch between EU rules and how the Italian banking system normally functions. There's a big problem but there's no need for an immediate showdown (some background). Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jul 8, 2016 |
# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:25 |
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In an ideal world, politicians and the obscenely wealthy would be forced to live as the poorest citizen in their nation. That would get things sorted out quick.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:33 |
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Pluskut Tukker posted:There's a big problem but there's no need for an immediate showdown. This presupposes those involved don't want to see any non-German economy fail miserably.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:33 |
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The rich would fund a program to kill god is what that would do.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:36 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes, all banks are interconnected and if the Spanish banking system goes tits up that would have serious implications for the German (and pretty much every other European) banking system. So are the repeated bailouts and austerity for the periphery done to protect over-leveraged German banks' razor-thin margin of solvency or not? Last page you called that idea a nasty word, and now presented with evidence you change the subject.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 05:53 |
Arglebargle III posted:So are the repeated bailouts and austerity for the periphery done to protect over-leveraged German banks' razor-thin margin of solvency or not? Last page you called that idea a nasty word, and now presented with evidence you change the subject. They are done primarily to protect the banking systems in their own countries but the fact that no one wants a second Lehman Brothers is also a factor. The Dolchstoß-Legend part is that German banks were the primary beneficiaries, which is absurd.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 07:07 |
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GaussianCopula posted:They are done primarily to protect the banking systems in their own countries but the fact that no one wants a second Lehman Brothers is also a factor. The Dolchstoß-Legend part is that German banks were the primary beneficiaries, which is absurd.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 08:16 |
A Buttery Pastry posted:Couldn't Spain have done an Iceland and just restructured the banks into healthy banks serving domestic interests and unhealthy banks owing a ton of money to German and French banks? In which case, German (and French) banks would be the primary beneficiaries of the solution, as there existed another that would better serve Spain but which would leave Germany and France having to deal with their own banks. Nope, you can't discriminate against businesses (or citizens) from other EU countries.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 08:30 |
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What would you guys recommend Greece to do to stop their recession?
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:14 |
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Leave the Euro and nationalize the assets of their shipping billionaires.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:31 |
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Invade Germany
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:32 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Nope, you can't discriminate against businesses (or citizens) from other EU countries.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:50 |
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Greece can't do anything, they are an object not a subject. Long term the only thing that's going to help is the end of austerity and an EU wide wealth transfer system. America has the Deep South, Russia has the Caucasus, Germany has the former GDR and the EU is now always going to have Greece.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:51 |
A Buttery Pastry posted:Alright. Couldn't you then create a bank for depositors (of any kind) and one for creditors (of any kind)? That wouldn't discriminate according to citizenship. You are aware that depositors and creditors are legally pretty much the same category, both loan money to the bank.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:55 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Couldn't Spain have done an Iceland and just restructured the banks into healthy banks serving domestic interests and unhealthy banks owing a ton of money to German and French banks? In which case, German (and French) banks would be the primary beneficiaries of the solution, as there existed another that would better serve Spain but which would leave Germany and France having to deal with their own banks. It would have been far cheaper for Germany, The Netherlands and France etc. to bail out their own banks directly, something they have had to do to an extent already anyways. I always advocated for this, clean start and all. Would have been the end of the banking union and the EMU though, so the politicians opted for the monstrosity we are in right now.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:06 |
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punk rebel ecks posted:What would you guys recommend Greece to do to stop their recession? I don't think Greece is still in a recession.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:15 |
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Lagotto posted:I don't think Greece is still in a recession. Greece is still in a recession.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:19 |
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Friendly Humour posted:Greece is still in a recession. I haven't seen the Q2 figures yet, but am hopeful they finally recovered from SYRIZA's little stunts.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:28 |
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Lagotto posted:I haven't seen the Q2 figures yet, but am hopeful they finally recovered from SYRIZA's little stunts. You mean the Troika's stunts.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:29 |
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Lagotto you have a very curious view of events.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:31 |
Friendly Humour posted:You mean the Troika's stunts. Yes it was the Troika that forced the referendum just to ignore it's results.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:38 |
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MiddleOne posted:Lagotto you have a very curious view of events. That's a matter of perspective. Mine really isn't that curious, if you really think so you should probably broaden your media intake somewhat.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:40 |
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See, this is why the EU is doomed.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:42 |
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Lol if you think that Brits would be onboard with helping Greece. One of the main arguments why not adopting the euro was a good idea is that the country didn't have to contribute to the already anemic bailout of Greece.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:48 |
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GaussianCopula posted:You are aware that depositors and creditors are legally pretty much the same category, both loan money to the bank. Lagotto posted:It would have been far cheaper for Germany, The Netherlands and France etc. to bail out their own banks directly, something they have had to do to an extent already anyways.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:05 |
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Lagotto posted:I don't think Greece is still in a recession. Your fantasy world sounds cool.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:08 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes it was the Troika that forced the referendum just to ignore it's results. Yes, they really did. They forced their will on Greece despite the referendum.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:12 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Can you explain why it would have meant an end of either of those two? Was there no way to do the cheap solution, then create a pan-European framework that could deal with any future cases? It would have been the cheap solution for the northern block. It would have let to the bankruptcy of the Greek banks and quite a few of the Spanish and Italian banks, since they were far more exposed to eachother and owed far more money domestically then externally. There is no way Spain could have financed their own bail out. Even if the southern financial sector could manage the above a full selective write off by southern banks of the debt owed to the north is not something the EU and the EMU would survive, that's pretty much self evident. All financial transactions from north to south would come to a stand still, the south would have no choice but to quit the EMU since they would be unable to finance their deficits (who is going to still lend them money?). Nationalism would do the rest.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:30 |
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Friendly Humour posted:Yes, they really did. They forced their will on Greece despite the referendum. ... No. Seriously, no. Greece always had the option to do what the UK is doing and cut all ties with the EU as a last resort. They probably could have even negotiated just to leave the Euro. The troika couldn't have done anything if Greece set article 50 in motion. Tsipras offered the Greek public the choice between accepting our turning down the deal the troika had put on the table, and it was the Greek government's decision alone to disregard the referendum result.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:52 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 08:55 |
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What would have happened if greece left the euro? To the euro I mean.
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# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:56 |