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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I just beat this game today. It was fantastic, and I can't wait to read this thread now. Though I assume people will be more negative about the game then I feel. I thought it was a really good conclusion to the series. Oh, no, I share your opinion.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:31
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I'm the same way. I have complaints, and there are some things that don't hold up as well under inspection, but then I think of the bit where they get told alternate timeline passwords don't work and muderSean comes to visit or the Sigma/Diana ending and decide that the good outweighs the bad.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:37
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Okay, had a lot of thoughts regarding "?" that I'm not sure if anyone else pointed out already Rewatching the VLR secret ending; Kyle is sent back to December 25th, and Akane says his mission begins on Christmas and ends on New Year's Eve, 2028. ZTD starts on New Year's Eve, and carries over to New Year's Day. Which means Kyle is explicitly not there during the time when the game happens, but is actually there for the 5 days that the Decision Game participants are unconscious. Consider the other things that we know about Kyle: he was born in an artificial womb and Sigma raised him as his own son. When Kyle asked for a mother, Sigma made a robot of Diana. We also know that Kyle's purpose as a "spare" was not his real purpose (his real purpose was to go back in time). What if Kyle is not actually a direct clone of Sigma at all, but is instead a hybrid of Diana and Sigma? We know that Akane went to the Free the Soul meeting on April 12th that Delta told her to go to (since she's wearing the robes when she wakes up Sigma on April 13th), then she immediately takes him to Rhizome 9...What if VLR Akane ended up explicitly working with Delta to create the events of ZTD after meeting with him and finding out what his overall plan was (hiding her plans even from Sigma)? Then Kyle went back into Delta's body from the 25th-31st in order to set up the events of ZTD.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:39
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So here's something else I wondered and if it was explained I don't quite remember. So I understand that when the characters were saying 'Q' the entire game, they referring to the old man we never saw called Delta. What I don't quite get is how the other characters know Q's, as in the robot Sean's, name. Like when you first say Delta killed Mira in front of the transporter room, Eric will say something like "How is that possible Sean?" Or something where he says Sean's name. But how do they know? Doesn't Sean only find out his real name during one of the endings, and he never tells anyone else?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:48
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I just beat this game today. It was fantastic, and I can't wait to read this thread now. Though I assume people will be more negative about the game then I feel. I thought it was a really good conclusion to the series. No, same. It's like a liferaft with a couple leaks in it if you look really close, but it gets the job done admirably.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:52
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:So here's something else I wondered and if it was explained I don't quite remember. So I understand that when the characters were saying 'Q' the entire game, they referring to the old man we never saw called Delta. What I don't quite get is how the other characters know Q's, as in the robot Sean's, name. Like when you first say Delta killed Mira in front of the transporter room, Eric will say something like "How is that possible Sean?" Or something where he says Sean's name. But how do they know? Doesn't Sean only find out his real name during one of the endings, and he never tells anyone else? We never see Sean tell anyone his name, but that doesn't mean he never said it to someone. We have to assume there were some things that were happening off-camera we never got to see (like, well, Delta :P). It's not clear exactly if Sean learns his name for the first time during that ending or not (Zero just says that was the name of the boy he's based on); either way, it's possible for him to just spontaneously remember it in another timeline via the quantum computer.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:56
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Chewbot posted:No, same. It's like a liferaft with a couple leaks in it if you look really close, but it gets the job done admirably. Luckily Uchikoshi threw in a bunch of factors that you can use to hand-wave holes in the plot :P. Most anything can be explained away by some combination of "the morphogenetic field did it" and "mind hacking".
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Jul 9, 2016 22:58
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The only thing that really bugged me about the game is that we never find out if Eric's abusive father was arrested or otherwise punished for the murder of his youngest son (probably not, given that he had Eric dump the body in a lake). Granted, it's not important to the overall narrative if he was or not, but I want to know and not knowing bugs the hell out of me. Life is truly unfair.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:04
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W.T. Fits posted:The only thing that really bugged me about the game is that we never find out if Eric's abusive father was arrested or otherwise punished for the murder of his youngest son (probably not, given that he had Eric dump the body in a lake). Granted, it's not important to the overall narrative if he was or not, but I want to know and not knowing bugs the hell out of me. Given what happens in the epilogue, one can easily form the headcanon that Eric's dad faced some serious robot-boy justice.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:05
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Winky posted:We never see Sean tell anyone his name, but that doesn't mean he never said it to someone. We have to assume there were some things that were happening off-camera we never got to see (like, well, Delta :P). Hm OK, I guess actually does make sense.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:06
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I still wish that Sean (original) was Left and not Delta's adoptive brother from when he was 
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Jul 9, 2016 23:09
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It's not actually clear that Sean learns his name in that cutscene. The dialogue goes like this: Zero: "I can only assume it's a remnant of the boy you were modeled off of. He struggled with an incurable disease and lost his life at the age of 10." Sean: "Who was he?" Zero: "He was called Sean. The same name as you." Sean doesn't react with surprise or anything... that cutscene is the first time we hear the name "Sean", but there's not really anything indicating Sean and the others didn't already know.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:12
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:It's not actually clear that Sean learns his name in that cutscene. The dialogue goes like this: He could have also learned it there and passed it on in the other time lines. Just one of those things best not to think too hard about in the canon.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:45
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Txn posted:I still wish that Sean (original) was Left and not Delta's adoptive brother from when he was
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Jul 10, 2016 00:11
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I do have to say, Delta's MIND HACKING powers are a lot easier to swallow when you remember in VLR it was mentioned that FTS grew unreasonably huge unreasonably fast and no one knew why, turns out it was Delta being a cheating jerk  My favourite part of the ending leading to VLR is Carlos blowing his way in to rescue Junpei and Akane all heroically, followed by Akane going "WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST PREVENT ALL THIS INSTEAD OF WAITING TEN MONTHS"  Carlos I love ya buddy, but dang dude foresight isn't your strongest trait Also considering ZTD barely got made, it's pretty ballsy of Uchikoshi to leave this on a sequel hook Danaru fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jul 10, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 00:39
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Danaru posted:I do have to say, Delta's MIND HACKING powers are a lot easier to swallow when you remember in VLR it was mentioned that FTS grew unreasonably huge unreasonably fast and no one knew why, turns out it was Delta being a cheating jerk Predetermination or something.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:44
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Danaru posted:My favourite part of the ending leading to VLR is Carlos blowing his way in to rescue Junpei and Akane all heroically, followed by Akane going "WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST PREVENT ALL THIS INSTEAD OF WAITING TEN MONTHS" Because Carlos' goal - however pointless - was to save that Akane and Junpei, and if he'd prevented the game he'd be in a different timeline that didn't contain them. For all Akane's mystical power she sometimes has a surprisingly poor understanding of time travel.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:51
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My biggest issue is that they were arguing over whether or not to kill other versions of themselves at the final choice when Carlos and team had been doing that for the last 6 hours of gameplay.
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Jul 10, 2016 01:11
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Capsaicin posted:My biggest issue is that they were arguing over whether or not to kill other versions of themselves at the final choice when Carlos and team had been doing that for the last 6 hours of gameplay. All those people were about to die or in really bad shape though. The final moral dilemma is that they were swapping with a gang who escaped the games with no memory, having just won a coin flip. They cold murdered that timeline. Not that they seem to really give a poo poo afterwards despite the prospect of a moral dilemma.
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Jul 10, 2016 03:22
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Rascyc posted:All those people were about to die or in really bad shape though. The final moral dilemma is that they were swapping with a gang who escaped the games with no memory, having just won a coin flip. The Junpei who had just won the lottery got switched with the Junpei who was about to kill himself on purpose to get the X-codes.
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Jul 10, 2016 03:43
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NRVNQSR posted:In Japanese they seem to get rereleased every couple of years or so for different platforms. The company who held the rights in Japan, Cyberfront, folded a couple of years ago and I'm not sure who owns the copyrights now. The games certainly aren't in print on any platform and the last ports Cyberfront did, for iOS and Android, are not on the app stores anymore. They're still pretty cheap used on PSP and PS2, and I see them fairly often in second hand shops.
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Jul 10, 2016 04:40
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I still find it odd "Ever17" was added to Steam's id library a few years back and nothing became of it
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Jul 10, 2016 04:40
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Clarste posted:The Junpei who had just won the lottery got switched with the Junpei who was about to kill himself on purpose to get the X-codes.
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Jul 10, 2016 06:17
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Danaru posted:I do have to say, Delta's MIND HACKING powers are a lot easier to swallow when you remember in VLR it was mentioned that FTS grew unreasonably huge unreasonably fast and no one knew why, turns out it was Delta being a cheating jerk Amusingly enough, one of the descriptions of Brother was that he was able to read people's thoughts, and so went "screw this, humanity sucks".
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Jul 10, 2016 06:34
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Woo, game finished, I can read this thread now. Number of times Chill and Rigor was used in ZTD: 0 
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Jul 10, 2016 07:55
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Rascyc posted:Ahahaha I forgot all about that. Just team C things. My favorite bit is the one where Akane blows the reactor so that they can die and SHIFT but D-Team is still alive at that moment and that was also the timeline where Zero poisoned D-Team and Akane sent the antidote to save then before that. I know their memories where erased but the fact that in just like a hour Akane saves and then kills D-Team is just funny.
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Jul 10, 2016 07:58
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Danaru posted:Also considering ZTD barely got made, it's pretty ballsy of Uchikoshi to leave this on a sequel hook.
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Jul 10, 2016 09:38
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Danaru posted:My favourite part of the ending leading to VLR is Carlos blowing his way in to rescue Junpei and Akane all heroically, followed by Akane going "WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST PREVENT ALL THIS INSTEAD OF WAITING TEN MONTHS" Carlos' expression whenever serious poo poo went down was one of my favourite parts-how his face looks slightly off, so something serious will happen followed by a zoom in on his face with his mouth slightly open and his eyes going in different directions, like he just suddenly spaced the gently caress out or mentally noped out
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Jul 10, 2016 10:39
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Going in I thought the game's biggest problem would be the character models but rather than actually ever being bad they were just hysterical most of the time.
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Jul 10, 2016 11:15
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I love the models, it was a good choice
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Jul 10, 2016 12:05
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I'm a big fan of how they cut away anytime something would-be animation-heavy happened to avoid actually animating it. Also, Akane's very stiff axe/chainsaw/whatever it was swinging.
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Jul 10, 2016 13:10
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I actually really liked the bit where the still running chainsaw blade hit the ground and the moving chain made it go tumbling. kinda clever
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Jul 10, 2016 15:05
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Irony Be My Shield posted:While you could make a sequel there isn't really anything hanging on it, I think it's more of a 'the adventure continues' ending. yeah, i feel like part of the point of the ending not being a choice to kill or save delta was to emphasize that from now on the players are doing their own thing, and we aren't needed anymore
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Jul 10, 2016 17:01
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I'm still confused as to how a 124 year-old man managed to overpower a grown woman in her, what, late 20s, early 30s?
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Jul 10, 2016 17:15
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M-M-MIND HACK
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Jul 10, 2016 17:18
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Jul 10, 2016 17:31
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Jul 10, 2016 17:33
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lol
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Jul 10, 2016 17:37
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They probably realized having so many plot threads would end up weighing the game down and just decided to ignore them, and I think it was probably for the better. Stuff like Delta actually being Brother was kind of hard to swallow all things considered and sorta felt like it was only because they had to wrap things up with him.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:39
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It's like not even relevant to anything. Delta would've had plenty of reason to pull off his backwards-causality Back to the Future scheme without also involving Free the Soul... except Akane explicitly says in VLR that Free the Soul caused the Dcom incident so I guess Uchikoshi felt he couldn't just drop it like he did Li'l Kyle. By the way, for a while I was actually worried Uchikoshi had been reading the wrong websites and that the quantum-technobabble of this installation was going to be Bayesian LessWrong-type poo poo. I mean it kinda almost is in the end anyway...
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Jul 10, 2016 17:48
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