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MMM Whatchya Say posted:in civ v. we don't know if thats how it works in civ vi I can't imagine they wouldn't allow any full action with 1 point left. Otherwise you potentially end up in the situation of having a unit that literally can't do anything due to circumstances. Plus the current approach is pretty standard for "action point"-based games in general.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I can't imagine they wouldn't allow any full action with 1 point left. Otherwise you potentially end up in the situation of having a unit that literally can't do anything due to circumstances. Plus the current approach is pretty standard for "action point"-based games in general. More than that, they scrapped the 'must have this many MP to move into a tile' rule after SMAC, since boy howdy was that obnoxious given the MP penalties you could rack up due to xenofungi. (Civ3's manual (pp59-60) says you can move into a tile as long as you have non-zero MP, so this not a new-as-of-5 thing.)
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Jul 7, 2016 20:25
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Aerdan posted:More than that, they scrapped the 'must have this many MP to move into a tile' rule after SMAC, since boy howdy was that obnoxious given the MP penalties you could rack up due to xenofungi. (Civ3's manual (pp59-60) says you can move into a tile as long as you have non-zero MP, so this not a new-as-of-5 thing.) Didn't civ 2 feature units with fractional (by thirds) movement? They still moved or attacked into adjacent tiles but had a combat penalty if an enemy was there.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:23
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Chronojam posted:Didn't civ 2 feature units with fractional (by thirds) movement? They still moved or attacked into adjacent tiles but had a combat penalty if an enemy was there. Yes, Civ 2 and SMAC both. It was also part of how roads worked - moving along a road took one third of a movement per road tile.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:24
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Chronojam posted:Didn't civ 2 feature units with fractional (by thirds) movement? They still moved or attacked into adjacent tiles but had a combat penalty if an enemy was there. Yes, but you had to have Enough™ movement in order to actually move. Combat you could do at x/3 strength based on the fractional move you had left, as Cythereal said.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:42
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Aerdan posted:Yes, but you had to have Enough™ movement in order to actually move. Combat you could do at x/3 strength based on the fractional move you had left, as Cythereal said. Could've sworn the early Civ games used random rolls to determine whether you could make a full move using "fractional" movement.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:49
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:That's what got me too but I think I have it figured out. The chariots have 3MP. The hill costs 2MP but can be entered with the last 1MP (like in Civ5). The southernmost tile can be entered if the Chariot heads east first, then southwest, then southwest again (it's only when moving from one ZOC to another that all MP gets eaten up) Aerdan posted:Nope. If you have at least 1MP remaining and the tile is not impassable (mountain, occupied by an unstackable unit, etc.), you can move into a tile with any terrain feature. It has been confirmed that you now need to pay the full MP cost to enter a tile in VI. You can no longer use 1 remaining MP to enter a 2MP tile. I think it was quill18 who confirmed this first. Not sure if it's been mentioned again. Another source: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ6_units.html quote:Movement now requires that a unit has the full amount of movement points required to enter a tile. For example, if Warrior has a move of 2 but only 1 movement point left in a turn, it can't enter a hills tile (because Hills require 2 movement points). This change will increase the impact of terrain on movement, as you won't be able to ignore rough terrain just by using your last movement point on it. The Human Crouton fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 23:10
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Well that's kinda unfun bullshit.
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Jul 7, 2016 23:16
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Gabriel Pope posted:Could've sworn the early Civ games used random rolls to determine whether you could make a full move using "fractional" movement. It did. As I recall it was (movement left)/(movement cost) chance, so moving into a mountain on 1mp and a grassland on 1/3mp (from crossing two roads) were both 1/3 chance. (and as mentioned, you'd also get a huge combat penalty for attacking on fractional movement. I don't think it was until AC that the game even started warning you about it). I'm fine with the Civ VI change as long as it's just "you can't move", it was the RNG element that made the old system really annoying.
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Jul 7, 2016 23:20
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Peas and Rice posted:Well that's kinda unfun bullshit. I think it will be fine. It makes the map more important. This change along with unstacked cities might finally give us armies fighting in the field instead of all sieges. Armies can now use terrain to great advantage because escaping units can't just run back home as easily. It also makes roads so much more important for army movement. There are going to be so many tiny important choices in this game.
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Jul 7, 2016 23:24
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I like how it will make terrain more strategic. I think my reaction comes from, a) I like playing on yooge maps and b) I don't like strategy games that restrict movement unnecessarily. Medieval 2: Total War, for example, gave armies ludicrously small ranges on the world map. I'm sure I'll be used to it in a couple of months.
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Jul 7, 2016 23:30
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Peas and Rice posted:I like how it will make terrain more strategic. I think my reaction comes from, a) I like playing on yooge maps and b) I don't like strategy games that restrict movement unnecessarily. Medieval 2: Total War, for example, gave armies ludicrously small ranges on the world map. I think this is why Ed Beach mentioned that they added the blue outline for your unit's movement range: so you'll get used to it really fast. He cited the fact that he could never figure out how XCOM movement worked so he was grateful for the movement outline in that game.
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Jul 7, 2016 23:37
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ok lets break it down. movement rules are incredibly basic to the game. you need to playtest the poo poo out of it from the get go. because i have faith in firaxis, should have done that. other aspects of the game must follow from this rule: ai, terrain generation, auto-road generation, combat worker costs. in other words, this is not something you change willy nilly. so saying it changed within a month, at this late stage of development, is a dumb thing to say
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Jul 7, 2016 23:51
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The Human Crouton posted:I think it will be fine. It makes the map more important. This change along with unstacked cities might finally give us armies fighting in the field instead of all sieges. It will make fighting less of a slog. Even if it's loving over your own units, it's your own fault for getting into that situation, and it's still speeding up the whole battle. Phobophilia posted:ok lets break it down. movement rules are incredibly basic to the game. you need to playtest the poo poo out of it from the get go. because i have faith in firaxis, should have done that. other aspects of the game must follow from this rule: ai, terrain generation, auto-road generation, combat worker costs. in other words, this is not something you change willy nilly. so saying it changed within a month, at this late stage of development, is a dumb thing to say And even if it was a big deal, this is kind of an overreaction to someone trying to make sense of something odd. Edit: Turns out you were responding to someone who was being dismissive of the person just trying to make sense of something odd. That's more understandable. Still, it's not that big a deal either way. Eiba fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 00:03
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Phobophilia posted:ok lets break it down. movement rules are incredibly basic to the game. you need to playtest the poo poo out of it from the get go. because i have faith in firaxis, should have done that. other aspects of the game must follow from this rule: ai, terrain generation, auto-road generation, combat worker costs. in other words, this is not something you change willy nilly. so saying it changed within a month, at this late stage of development, is a dumb thing to say Civ is basically a board game and changes, often major ones, are made at the last minute all the time so I'm not sure where you get the idea that all devs know concretely how a game will play to the last detail in stage 1. Often it's impossible to figure out how these things work in practice until you can, bare minimum, play a rough beta of the concept. More playtesting leads to greater understanding of whst gameplay concepts don't quite work.
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Jul 8, 2016 02:08
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Being "basically a board game" means you can actually paper prototype it before any code is written at all, and you probably should because one of the most fundamental things is movement of tokens on a game board. Additionally there's an existing rough beta in Civilization V.
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Jul 8, 2016 02:39
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Also movement rules are actually a fairly minor change in a strategy game with a long scale like civ. They're important for tactics, but while civ has tactics in it, it is not even close to the core of the game. I mean, I don't think there actually was a change in movement rules and it's more likely that from our vantage point there's just some rules we don't understand yet but the point still stands. Anyway, movement rules are exactly the sort of rules that are easy to tweak and fiddle with and immediately observe their effects, thus they're like the most likely thing to get changed around and fine tuned as things go on.
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Jul 8, 2016 02:39
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And here I was, hoping the "default" movement speed would be three instead of two.
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Jul 8, 2016 05:40
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The fundamental rules of movement are a pretty basic thing that should be settled early on in development, but the exact price of moving over some specific piece of terrain is a minor balance tweak that can and should be subject to change right up until release. Or maybe even after release in a patch. It's no different from adjusting the exact hammer cost of a unit.
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Jul 8, 2016 05:52
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My only worry regarding making terrain more important in this fashion is that the AI is really bad at dealing with terrain in Civ 5.
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Jul 8, 2016 07:59
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There isn't a single thing in Civ V that the AI is capable of handling.
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Jul 8, 2016 08:06
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That reminds me, why is the AI so awful at naval combat? You'd think the complete absence of terrain variety would give them a fighting chance, but no.
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Jul 8, 2016 08:20
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The French Army! posted:There isn't a single thing in Civ V that the AI is capable of handling. There are definitely things it handles worse than others. You can make the game much harder on yourself by playing on a Great Plains map (since the AI is generally terrible at dealing with water and other terrain) and playing on Quick speed (which minimises the effect of unit movement on the game, which the AI is terrible at). JeremoudCorbynejad posted:That reminds me, why is the AI so awful at naval combat? You'd think the complete absence of terrain variety would give them a fighting chance, but no. I believe there are lots of bugs regarding the ability of the AI to move and then shoot, which is pretty big in naval combat.
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Jul 8, 2016 08:21
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SURPRISE EARLY LOOK: JAPAN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diEavgTOIA8 Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yHo_ZLmy94 for the official International subbed video, rather than 2K Japan's hard-subbed version. The narrator is still English. Unique Ability: Meiji Restoration - Extra bonuses for Districts built next to each other. Leader Ability: Divine Wind - Land units get a combat bonus for fighting next to the coast, Naval units get a combat bonus for fighting in shallow water tiles. Unique Unit: Samurai - don't lose combat strength when they take damage. (Unlocked by Military Tactics technology) Unique Building: Electronics Factory - (replaces Factory in Industrial Zone Districts) provides bonus Production and Culture to nearby cities (not just its home city). Hogama fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 08:37
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So, Japan gets Nintendo as their unique building.
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Jul 8, 2016 08:41
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Hogama posted:Leader Ability: Divine Wind - Land units get a combat bonus for fighting next to the coast, Naval units get a combat bonus for fighting in shallow water tiles. What is the historical context for this? Seems like it would make it difficult to invade Japan. edit: and perhaps a bonus to invade someone else, I guess.
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Jul 8, 2016 08:52
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John F Bennett posted:What is the historical context for this? Seems like it would make it difficult to invade Japan. I believe Tokugawa-era Japan is known for having fended off Mongol invasions, so that adds up. E: I meant Tokimune. Microplastics fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 08:55
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John F Bennett posted:What is the historical context for this? Seems like it would make it difficult to invade Japan. The kamikaze (lit. divine wind) referred to the typhoons that ravaged Kublai Khan's naval invasion force (on two separate occasions), but the storms didn't do all the work alone; the Japanese ships of the time were more adapted to the local waters and picked off stragglers in the first invasion attempt. Still, the Mongolian assault had initially gained some traction. In the second invasion, the Japanese coastal defenses were much more well prepared and the Mongols were soundly repulsed by the land forces. So it mostly seems to reflect the human element of the time, which makes sense as it's Tokimune's ability and he was more or less in charge of the country (such as it was) at the time.
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Jul 8, 2016 09:11
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A couple of new Eurekas can be seen, too. I know they'd mentioned that wars would start getting more complex as the eras advanced but as far as I recall this is the first time an actual casus belli system has been explicitly referred to in game.
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Jul 8, 2016 09:29
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The lady in the video also said that the benefits just make it easier for Japan to play an island map. So there is also that - mechanics enforcing a bit of RP
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Jul 8, 2016 09:37
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Hogama posted:A couple of new Eurekas can be seen, too. Naw they've talked about it before, vaguely. The idea, hopefully, is it curbs the AI being seemingly random about declaring wars but also help remove the "declare war once everyone hates you forever" of civ 5 by letting the player at least try and explain what they're doing.
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Jul 8, 2016 12:37
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Hogama posted:The kamikaze (lit. divine wind) referred to the typhoons that ravaged Kublai Khan's naval invasion force (on two separate occasions), but the storms didn't do all the work alone; the Japanese ships of the time were more adapted to the local waters and picked off stragglers in the first invasion attempt. Still, the Mongolian assault had initially gained some traction. In the second invasion, the Japanese coastal defenses were much more well prepared and the Mongols were soundly repulsed by the land forces. For reference, the more famous kamikaze, ie: the Japanese suicide pilots in WW2, was meant to be an allusion to this. They thought of themselves as becoming the "Divine Wind" that would protect Japan from naval invasion again.
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Jul 8, 2016 14:05
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If Gandhi is in the game, I wonder what sort of unique units and abilities he's going to get.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:16
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:That reminds me, why is the AI so awful at naval combat? You'd think the complete absence of terrain variety would give them a fighting chance, but no. Tactically I find the Civ V AI does naval combat decently because it doesn't get bogged down the way that land units do. But it's very weak strategically because it allocates units to very rigid roles and does not reevaluate their usage in response to threats. So they'll do things like spread their fleet out on coast defense and let you pick them off 1-2 at a time without bothering to send nearby pickets in as reinforcements, or launch a massive invasion fleet and ignore hostile ships that aren't directly in the way of their objective (and then once those hostile ships snipe a few carriers and other key fleet elements, most of the fleet will probably turn around and sail home without bothering to fight because "return to port" becomes their overriding objective.)
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Jul 8, 2016 16:06
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Gabriel Pope posted:Tactically I find the Civ V AI does naval combat decently because it doesn't get bogged down the way that land units do. But it's very weak strategically because it allocates units to very rigid roles and does not reevaluate their usage in response to threats. So they'll do things like spread their fleet out on coast defense and let you pick them off 1-2 at a time without bothering to send nearby pickets in as reinforcements, or launch a massive invasion fleet and ignore hostile ships that aren't directly in the way of their objective (and then once those hostile ships snipe a few carriers and other key fleet elements, most of the fleet will probably turn around and sail home without bothering to fight because "return to port" becomes their overriding objective.) In one of my last games I was attacking oversea Rome, in late game. The AI was defending its coast quite well even though I had a superior navy. I was having to call more and more ships to cope with the losses. Then all of sudden like 5 destroyers show up near my coast. Since my whole navy was at their coast, I had nothing to defend. And since most of my army was already there too, it seemed like the AI it was making a very smart move: striking my undefended homeland while all I had was across the ocean. And so I though "clever fuckers, they sent the destroyers first to clear the way, now come the troops to invade". Well, nope: no troops were coming and the ships just kept hanging around this town, getting shot by its garrison and a couple of cannons I had there, until Ive sunk then all. Meanwhile, my navy near his coast completely destroyed the ships he had there, something he could have prevented (or at least made a lot more costly) with those 5 destroyers The AI really sucked at war in Civ 5, land or sea Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 16:21
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Everything I hear makes me want to this game more. Many were worried that despite the idea of the map controlling so much, that the community would still find the best build and make the game static. But the more I see about the unique bonuses, and how they interact with the geography, the more I feel that the best we'll be able to do is devise a best build per civ.
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Jul 8, 2016 17:28
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Which frankly is a bit better than the get tradition build libraries/ science always strat that was pretty effective for every single civ in civ 5.
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Jul 8, 2016 17:56
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fleshy echidna posted:Which frankly is a bit better than the get tradition build libraries/ science always strat that was pretty effective for every single civ in civ 5. Get the CBP mod Gort fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 20:42
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Good news everyone! Christopher Tin is back.Christopher Tin posted:I have a big announcement to make! I’ve returned to Sid Meier’s Civilization franchise and have written the theme for the latest installment, Civilization VI.
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Jul 11, 2016 19:04
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I've never wished I still lived in London as much as I do right now.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:08
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