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nozh posted:also for her to stop getting raped so much because it's just getting ridiculous now. many have tried but casca only got raped once?
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Jul 11, 2016 15:45
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 20:27 |
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I love Griffith Admit it, you forgive him.
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Jul 11, 2016 17:01
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Ganishka Was Right
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Jul 11, 2016 18:09
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what was the "point" of the lost children arc? i might have missed a theme really in speeding through. that was probably my least favorite one overall.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:17
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i h8 griffith and hope guts mutilates him, but also like, doesn't be obsessed with revenge during it. and girffith dies really badly.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:18
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"Nobody kills "Jesus Grandpa, what did you read me this thing for?!"
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Jul 11, 2016 18:19
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i just feel like the whole casca rape thing was a bit excessive on his part yknow. like, just kill em.. things wouldve ben easier for him truthfully if he didn't get weird about it and do all that nonsense...
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Jul 11, 2016 18:20
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It served a couple purposes, the main for me two being to reestablish, after the Golden Age, just how loving crazy Guts on the hunt could be, and also to introduce the concept of an Apostle that wasn't just a complete cartoon.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:21
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Rodyle posted:It served a couple purposes, the main for me two being to reestablish, after the Golden Age, just how loving crazy Guts on the hunt could be, and also to introduce the concept of an Apostle that wasn't just a complete cartoon. hm yeah that is fair, good pts.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:22
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some characters are quite interesting. i forget his name but the big fat preacher (the one who is the strongest non-zodd non-god hand apostle i've seen so far) that guts fights at the 2nd eclipse, its weird because at first im reading him as like okay this guys just a huge douche, killing ppl all the time etc. but then i sortve thought to myself well he really does believe in this nonsense, and thinks in his head that hes the good and pious guy, and he's not like hypocritical about it considering he like ravages his own body with intense prayer.. owned by guts, though.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:24
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Honestly Miura has a rape kink and your ability to come to terms with this or not will be a big part of your enjoyment of Berserk.tbp posted:what was the "point" of the lost children arc? i might have missed a theme really in speeding through. that was probably my least favorite one overall. Miura wanted to draw pubescent nudes.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:25
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Deified Data posted:Honestly Miura has a rape kink and your ability to come to terms with this or not will be a big part of your enjoyment of Berserk. yeah i def noticed that. lol there was that pretty wild part w/ the religious girl who 1. almost gets horse raped 2. has sex with a sword. berserks crazy....
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Jul 11, 2016 18:26
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tbp posted:what was the "point" of the lost children arc? i might have missed a theme really in speeding through. that was probably my least favorite one overall. The theme is that Guts has become an utterly revenge-obsessed madman who literally showers in gore and gleefully murders everything that opposes him! Like, what we got during the Black Swordsman arc, only cranked up to eleven. Ultimately, Guts manages to cling onto his humanity somewhat, thanks to that arc's girl and Puck. Still a major downgrade. I think we get the beast's first appearance right after? Also, it has a elf girl moth fighter jet. And one of the best sequences of panels in the manga, in my opinion. Rosalina takes several hits, flies upwards with Guts, drops him off and impales him successfully, right in the head She's freaking out at this point, and there's a panel of her exhilarated to have finally killed that terrifying monster Only she didn't quite get him She's only punched through Guts' mouth, and he bites down on the lance with a fuckin death stare going on, and this is the exact moment that Rosalina realizes that not only did she miss, she just put herself into melee range, and her eyes just go ooooooh gently caress
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Jul 11, 2016 18:31
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Everyone always talks up Mozgus, and rightfully so, but I think that shot of Guts with his head impaled by Rosine really might be the actual craziest rageface of the series
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Jul 11, 2016 18:43
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Rodyle posted:Everyone always talks up Mozgus, and rightfully so, but I think that shot of Guts with his head impaled by Rosine really might be the actual craziest rageface of the series no doubt 
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Jul 11, 2016 18:47
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If Guts is biting something, there's an 11/10 chance that panel is loving great.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:50
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Josuke Higashikata posted:If Guts is biting something, there's an 11/10 chance that panel is loving great. How does he have such perfect teeth after all the times he's done that?
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Jul 11, 2016 19:00
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"Nobody kills Lmao Guts is going to battle Griffith "To the pain"
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Jul 11, 2016 19:02
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Griffith and Guts will drive each other into the dirt, but just as it looks like Griffith's about to make the last blow, Puck and Ishidro trip him with a rope, making him fall off the side of Falconia's ramparts to his death. Schreike will drown Grunbeld.
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Jul 11, 2016 19:44
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I also just binged through the whole manga and the only thing that really twisted my stomach was the constant threat of rape. I don't know why that makes me nauseous when Guts is cutting people in half and laughing while their entrails fly all over the place. But it made it really hard to get through some spots. Wyald raping the farmgirl after Griffith's rescue really made me consider putting down the series. That kind of gratuitous torture porn just feels lazy and makes me question an author's ability to actually tell a story without resorting to shock. It made me feel sick but it also made me roll my eyes at the mentality of "how do we make this poo poo even more extreme, oh yeah we can rape the ladies." Casca's rape by Griffith was at least relevant to the story and can get a pass but I don't think anything communicated in Wyald's pillaging of that farm served any importance to the story. So yeah tldr I had problems with some of the things in this series (rape and casual misogyny) but overall I enjoyed it and I am eager to see how it ends. In fifteen years. Are there any easily-accessible critical pieces on Berserk that explore the darker and more violent themes from this manga, so I can contextualize things a bit better and maybe learn something? I am open to having my mind changed about graphic rape being used as a storytelling tool but it will require some pretty good, solid arguments being made. Has this been hashed out anywhere, so I can read up about it? ninja edit: it is also probably relevant to mention that outside of Ranma 1/2 when I was in school fifteen years ago, I have no experience with manga and almost no experience with anime, so I have very little cultural awareness when it comes to these art forms.
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Jul 11, 2016 19:53
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Wyald was poo poo and his only worthwhile moment was getting wrecked super hard by a horned backbreaker.
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Jul 11, 2016 19:57
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IDK someone upthread talked about how he was instrumental in proving to the group that Griffith was done and would never recover. That was good. My only problem with that storyline was really just two specific panels, that teenager getting her clothes ripped off and then the head-on rape spread on the next page. I think the value of these panels is questionable. But that is only my initial reading of it and I'd like to read how academics responded to it. I saw someone say that Wyald discussion always devolves into the same circular argument which is why I'm trying to find other critical sources so I don't poo poo up this thread 
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Jul 11, 2016 20:07
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I don't even remember who Wyald is. I don't remember that name at all.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:13
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mabels big day posted:I don't even remember who Wyald is. I don't remember that name at all. I think he's the guy who fo- and then Griffith tried to kill himself in a river
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Jul 11, 2016 20:17
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mabels big day posted:I don't even remember who Wyald is. I don't remember that name at all. He's the Not-Zodd that chases the hawk members out of Midland right before the Eclipse. He's basically Zodd's uglier and dumber brother. Not the end of the world to cut him out of the anime IMO. He's not as unique as the other disciples, he looks a lot like an ugly Zodd and his main characteristic is that he's just a brute.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:23
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There's nothing whatsoever in the way of serious critical reading of Berserk except what bored nerds can come up with, what reputable academic is going to play dice with his career over the deep meaning contained within Japanese ultra violence rape horse comics? For what it's worth I think that Miura gets, or perhaps more so used to get, a hardon out of drawing rape and violent sex, often involving seriously grotesque elements and monsters. But I think he also deliberately employs these as elements in his storytelling to draw a line connecting sex and violence, to say that they are rooted in similar urges which are in some way inhuman and monstrous. And of course to get a rise out of his audience as well. I think just about everything that you need to know about what Berserk is about is contained in that first scene: Guts has sex with a babe, she turns into a demon, and he promptly blows her loving head off. It's like coitus interruptus with a god drat artillery piece standing in for his symbolically demon-castrated junk.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:26
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Paineopticon posted:So yeah tldr I had problems with some of the things in this series (rape and casual misogyny) but overall I enjoyed it and I am eager to see how it ends. In fifteen years. Are there any easily-accessible critical pieces on Berserk that explore the darker and more violent themes from this manga, so I can contextualize things a bit better and maybe learn something? I am open to having my mind changed about graphic rape being used as a storytelling tool but it will require some pretty good, solid arguments being made. Has this been hashed out anywhere, so I can read up about it? There have been numerous arguments and discussions in this thread about sexual violence in Berserk that pretty much cover every perspective and topic imaginable (because we had 8 years with virtually nothing happening until very recently.) The overall consensus is that rape and sexual violence is always condemned in Berserk, but that in the majority of cases Berserk doesn't try to inhabit the female victim's perspective, so it's presented as something often voyeuristic. As for the thematic core of Berserk, if you didn't encounter it when you were first reading there's a "lost episode", chapter 83, which never ended up in the published volume collections. It takes place during the Eclipse. For all intents and purposes it's canon, but Miura cut it from the official release because he felt it revealed Berserk's overall plot and themes too early on in the story and too opaquely. I'd seek that out. Paineopticon posted:I saw someone say that Wyald discussion always devolves into the same circular argument which is why I'm trying to find other critical sources so I don't poo poo up this thread Half of us think Wyald is cheap and gratuitous and doesn't add anything to the plot, half of us think he's a really great villain and one of the best fights in the manga. We will never reconcile, so the argument just resurrects itself over and over again.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:30
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Wyald's role is served just as well by the random soldiers in the anime and movie with none of the rapey-ness.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:33
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mabels big day posted:I don't even remember who Wyald is. I don't remember that name at all. Big monkey thing that Guts fights outside of Zodd to be their first taste of Apostle fighting.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:35
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No-one in the movie shows that more hosed up monsters like Zodd are out there and no one else shows that Griffith is just a destroyed, weak and emaciated person. You can replace his killing and fight, even though they're good, but he's a larger character outside of it too.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:36
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skasion posted:There's nothing whatsoever in the way of serious critical reading of Berserk except what bored nerds can come up with, what reputable academic is going to play dice with his career over the deep meaning contained within Japanese ultra violence rape horse comics? For what it's worth I think that Miura gets, or perhaps more so used to get, a hardon out of drawing rape and violent sex, often involving seriously grotesque elements and monsters. But I think he also deliberately employs these as elements in his storytelling to draw a line connecting sex and violence, to say that they are rooted in similar urges which are in some way inhuman and monstrous. And of course to get a rise out of his audience as well. I think just about everything that you need to know about what Berserk is about is contained in that first scene: Guts has sex with a babe, she turns into a demon, and he promptly blows her loving head off. It's like coitus interruptus with a god drat artillery piece standing in for his symbolically demon-castrated junk. Eh, I've seen a good bit of serious critical reading of Uzumaki, which is also Japanese ultra violence graphic comics. So its possible. Its just overall Uzumaki feels slightly more "artistic" with its gore, while Berserk is more just fantasy for the id part of your brain. Its seen as less mature use of gore and so its not taken as seriously. I'm not really interested in arguing about the role of rape in berserk as a storytelling device because there's already been a billion  written on subjects like that and not a lot to add, or much to get out of it really. It is what it is.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:38
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Without getting too deep into Wyald the one thing I would say is that the argument that he was necessary to show the Hawks how weak Griffith had become doesn't make a lot of sense when the core group was hiding him from the grunts specifically because his injuries would obviate that point on sight.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:50
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It's a kick in the arse. It's obvious Griffith is that way on sight, but they're in denial about it, but the only people who really accept it are Guts and Casca. None of the other named Hawks really accept that readily. I don't have it at hand, but the Band talks like "He'll be back" "He'll be better soon". Wyald destroys that by showing there's no fight in Griffith anymore, no struggle and he breaks that denial about him which is why they all start talking about disbanding the Band of the Hawk and moving on without him. It's an important thing there and he's valuable in that sense. You can also adapt that part of him without getting into the bits people don't like.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:54
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I don't remember any talk of disbanding the hawk and leaving without him. That part always seemed kinda weird to me, because if he was just gravely injured, say he had a bunch of broken bones, its entirely possible he would be completely useless during the Wyald fight, but still capable of recuperating and then later becoming strong again. Now, that's not the reality, he's had his tendons cut and poo poo so he's hosed up permanently, but the Wyald fight isn't really enough for other people to realize that? Its enough to make Griffith himself realize it, which is all that matters, but the plot development building up to Griffith accepting the sacrifice was a little awkward in some ways. And even still, the part with Griffith as his young self running towards the castle was much better at explaining the turn than the Wyald fight was.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:58
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Around the chapter numbers ~70 or so they talk about what's going to happen, Judeau decides to leave and form a thieves band, the raiders want to go with Guts. Griffith would have to go with someone obviously but the implication is that the Hawks disband there. They tell everyone after Wyald tells them that Griffith's done. The Griffith turn following himself and Wyald's thing are different things in a way, though they play into each other obviously. The end of the Wyald fight is pretty drat successful writing as a whole to me and it's a shame to lose that, regardless of opinions on him and the preceding that aren't worth getting into.
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Jul 11, 2016 21:12
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Josuke Higashikata posted:No-one in the movie shows that more hosed up monsters like Zodd are out there and no one else shows that Griffith is just a destroyed, weak and emaciated person. You can replace his killing and fight, even though they're good, but he's a larger character outside of it too. i mean i guess it shows that but as readers its not a huge thing because we already specifically know that theres tons of monster out there
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Jul 11, 2016 21:28
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I'd say both the child scene and the fight and death of Wylad sets up the dream is the most important thing of all for Griffith and sort of make it understandable how he'd view them all as that expendable when they're about to give up on him. In Griffith's mind, post Wylad, the Band was already going to betray him first so there is nothing left but the offer of the Eclipse. A nice bit of causality and tragedy to tie up any loose ends Griffith could have. And once he becomes Femto, even his poo poo with Caska makes a sort of sense at by that point he's just above any reprehensible poo poo he could pull. Nothing matters but his dream, gently caress it all.
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Jul 11, 2016 21:28
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The thing about Wyald is that there's nothing about his role tissue couldn't be handled by any other apostle. His inclusion feels awkward because he's only introduced immediately before they fight him, and after they beat that group of Kushan assassins. Like it feels like either Wyald or the assassins should be cut, and that leader of the assassins shows up later so you cut Wyald. It's like "Oh no Griffith escaped send out these super scary assassins as a last resort to kill him!" "Well that didn't work, send out the REAL last resort super evil rape monster guy." If Midland was harboring him (and that torturer, really) it should have been alluded to at some point earlier on. It feels a little tacked on as it is now.
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Jul 11, 2016 21:30
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the casca rape doesnt make sense to me from griffiths pov. like his ambition doesnt line up with "do some reprehensible poo poo for the sake of it" and even beyond that, the rest of the gods seem really "above it all". like because of their unnaturalness they dont specifically seem to exist to just really be mean, and griffith might have seen the hawks as pawns and everything but i dont think that goes so far as to say he wants to be terrible to them without it achieving something. so sacrificing makes sense, weirdly forcing guts to watch casca be raped doesnt i do understand that is was important in that it changed her character, never really got why he did it tho
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Jul 11, 2016 21:33
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Remember that Griffith is also a petty dude that seriously became loving depressed and crazy when Guts finally beat him and left, his possession leaving HIM. That's part of the reason why he lost his game and hosed up enough to be tortured and mutilated by the King. He could blame Guts up to that point for his downfall and hurt Caska just to finally one up him in the worst way possible, but it will never justify his actions nor really connect the dots perfectly. Its just how I see it besides Mirua being a bit of a creepy dude; and the horrible irony of the person that saved Caska from rape and man she devoted her life to, sacrifices and rapes her.
Crabtree fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 21:45
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