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Palicgofueniczekt posted:No, mall cops has a feel of self-aggrandizing authority abuse. Mall cops are lovely because they can try to bluster their way into being assessed like real cops. If the real cops were as powerful as mall cops they'd have to pretend to be firefighters or matadors or something.
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Jul 12, 2016 02:39
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You may recall reports of HSBC helping drug cartels launder the better part of a billion dollars a few years back. Specifically how no one one was prosecuted. http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/12/top-us-officials-rejected-push-to-prosecute-hsbc-lawmakers-report.html Looks like it was from a republican led inquiry, but the DoJ refused to prosecute because the bank was too big to fail basically. I'm sure large campaign contributions to people making these decisions had no influence whatsoever.
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Jul 12, 2016 13:01
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Cephalocidal posted:More cops on the beat would work too, provided they didn't have the broad authority of current police. I would love it if first-tier police officers were as prevalent in our communities as red light cameras, and as empowered to police as the information kiosk in a hospital lobby. Also unarmed. This sounds a lot like community policing which I'm all for. Studies show that police presence does deter crime, but the presence of armed cops leads to feelings of oppression and danger among communities. I'd like to see less armed cops, more police that walk the same beat and thus become a part of the community that they serve. This leads to communities knowing Jerry the local cop rather than thinking of police in their community as a faceless mass of gun toters. In order for this to work, a demiliterised police force is necessary, and thus hiring practices will need to change. Regular beat cops should not be hired and trained to be street soldiers. They will have to be able to relate to the communities they police, and therefore will need to adopt a more conciliatory and less interrogative style. Basically I'd like to see police as mediators rather than enforcers.
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Jul 12, 2016 13:23
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you think maybe the police act the way they do, not because of who they are, but because of the system they're in like if you made randos walk beats, you'd end up with a long shitshow of dickheads using that power for the personal vendettas, then after enough of those scandals, you'd have to go through a long process of 'professionalization', that'll eventually recreate in every functional detail the system you have now you want to solve things? Cameras, everywhere. maybe finally get around to some automated facial recognition if you could get robot cameras to detect crimes then grats, you can really start downsizing your police force
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Jul 12, 2016 15:33
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I think you missed the part where they don't have guns and have less power.
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Jul 12, 2016 15:36
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rudatron posted:you think maybe the police act the way they do, not because of who they are, but because of the system they're in Look, the nature of policing means that it's going to attract people who like to hold power over others for pleasure, so this needs to be addressed through better hiring practices and training. I might be wrong about this, but the US seems exceptionally prone to abuses of police power, at least of late, and so I think it's reasonable to suggest that there is room for improvement. Cameras may be part of the solution. Certainly, better oversight and the ability of a third party to police the police using said cameras would be helpful. In my own city, the police review board is staffed with ex-police and so there is a definite culture of protecting the ingroup. An independent board with teeth would probably help to crack down on abuses of power. I'm hearing a lot about "the system" and am wondering what reforms/revamps/etc you would like to see in order to build a better system.
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Jul 12, 2016 16:46
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rudatron posted:you think maybe the police act the way they do, not because of who they are, but because of the system they're in This sounds like a dystopia. Also it would have been impossible to implement up until a few years ago. Maybe there are some social remedies for this problem instead? There's more to changing behavior than technology.
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Jul 12, 2016 19:57
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rudatron posted:you want to solve things? Cameras, everywhere. maybe finally get around to some automated facial recognition That um, doesn't really solve things so much as creates entirely new problems.
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Jul 13, 2016 00:56
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Mr. Horrible posted:This sounds like a dystopia. Also it would have been impossible to implement up until a few years ago. yeah, like it would still be a police state just without people doing the policing
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Jul 13, 2016 04:42
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Mark my words: Technology will unemploy us all.
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Jul 13, 2016 06:37
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Mark my words: Technology will unemploy us all. That will either be really good or really bad, and it depends on if the center-left-moving-left or the center-moving-right is in power, respectively.
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Jul 13, 2016 08:19
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Mark my words: Technology will unemploy us all. Always bet on Oligarchy
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Jul 13, 2016 08:58
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emancipate the working class from menial labour and encourage them to invest their time in education and the arts imo
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Jul 13, 2016 09:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsaFPiXlLNg
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Jul 13, 2016 09:10
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SirJohnnyMcDonald posted:emancipate the working class from menial labour and encourage them to invest their time in education and the arts imo This And also Eat the Rich
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Jul 13, 2016 09:12
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Mark my words: Technology will unemploy us all. Only if it works properly or people stop loving poo poo up.
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Jul 13, 2016 20:09
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This letter and currently hashtag #WeAreTheLeft is a pathetic smear on actual leftists masquerading as a "manifesto" by people determined to use identity politics to crush economic populism. According to sources that informed Carl Beijer, the actual writer of this article is likely Sady Doyle: https://medium.com/@We_Are_The_Left/an-open-letter-on-identity-politics-to-and-from-the-left-b927fe66d3a4#.cf7b4bf5e Some choice cuts: quote:In 2015, two young women of color, Marissa Johnson and Mara Willaford, occupy the stage at an event for Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders. They speak for Black Lives Matter, a radical group aimed at exposing and resisting the murder of people of color by the police. quote:It is being done because we have been identified as representatives of “identity politics.” Representatives of feminism, of anti-racism, of trans rights, of disability rights, of queer rights, of movements which explicitly aim for an intersectional approach to both economic and social justice. For these crimes, we have been serially, violently, sexually and continually harassed, with the aim of purging us from our positions or from our own movements, in order to establish a “pure,” exclusively class-based, left.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:01
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As a leftist, I endorse that letter.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:27
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Pinterest Mom posted:As a leftist, I endorse that letter.  also, a good rebuttal to that "left" (lmao) letter: https://medium.com/@scaryh/return-to-sender-465382731e40#.n3ckrl7yp
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Jul 14, 2016 01:34
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Mmm, yeah. Economic populism sure drowns out identity issues.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:36
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"The PROBLEM with the letter, in the final account, is that it asks us to go on as we have. It shows us problems we specifically adopted identity politics to solve. It shows us that they are still there, but shames any critique of the tactics which have done nothing to alleviate them (while the examples in the letter are from a very broad left, in which identity politics cannot be said to be the rule of the land; the exact same problems pop up in those communities which pride themselves on being the most intersectional). It raises the spectre of the ascendant right, but will not come to grips with the fact that it is completely impotent in the face of this."
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Jul 14, 2016 01:41
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something that's frustrating to me is liberals refuse to acknowledge and the leftists don't mention socialist countries have some of the best levels of representation for women and minority groups in government and highly skilled workforces and that said countries have better mechanisms to ensure greater representation generally
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Jul 14, 2016 01:43
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Pinterest Mom posted:As a leftist, I endorse that letter. Of course you do https://twitter.com/RogerRiga/status/753346694943608832 Neolibs: we are the left, yup, only us. Death2bros. Marginalized Leftists: *muffled screaming heard from trunk*
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Jul 14, 2016 01:47
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Classic Comrade posted:
Parroting ableist smear campaigns to dismiss critics is something that even you've done, CC, so you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the concern that good leftists often wield their opponents' identities and concern about identities against them. Homework Explainer posted:something that's frustrating to me is liberals refuse to acknowledge and the leftists don't mention socialist countries have some of the best levels of representation for women and minority groups in government and highly skilled workforces Isn't that implicit in the premise of the letter? The left is supposed to be (and is, by and large is) better for marginalised people, of all stripes, so that makes the instances where we fall down all the more egregious. We don't get to pat ourselves on the back, point to how many doctors in Cuba are women, and declare the job done.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:14
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Look at what you support (long-ish thread): https://twitter.com/MexicAnarchist/status/753324493255299073 Tldr+Fyi- the people who wrote and endorsed this wearetheleft poo poo are guilty of exactly what they complain about. They ignore women/poc (like the people in that link) in favor of singling out any white dude saying the same thing so they can score points. Its pure neolib astroturf, which explains why you wholeheartedly endorse it. quote:[leftist students and teachers getting gunned down in Mexico]
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Jul 14, 2016 02:21
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It's easy to pretend that any criticism of the left by the left actually means that the critics are neoliberals or insufficiently pure  .
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Jul 14, 2016 02:25
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Error 404 posted:Look at what you support (long-ish thread): I like that the quote at the bottom involves the animetar ignoring the mexican students to call some other rando on twitter names
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Jul 14, 2016 02:30
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I like that the quote at the bottom involves the animetar ignoring the mexican students to call some other rando on twitter names Aaaaand you continue being really bad at reading comprehension. E: let me spell it out simply: y'all were swooning over Trudeau jogging with the guy sending federales to murder teachers in Oaxaca. It is a reference. Error 404 has issued a correction as of 02:36 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 02:31
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Homework Explainer posted:something that's frustrating to me is liberals refuse to acknowledge and the leftists don't mention socialist countries have some of the best levels of representation for women and minority groups in government and highly skilled workforces This is an excellent post and I applaud you for making it. Like Pinterest Mom, I also am willing to self-identify as a leftist who endorses the "we are the left" letter. Defining what exactly is "left" and what exactly is "right" is an extremely difficult task, but one way of defining "left vs right" that I am especially appreciative of is the idea that leftists want to make the most marginalized peoples' qualities-of-life better by diminishing the qualities-of-life of the most privileged peoples while rightists want to make the most privileged peoples' qualities-of-life better by diminishing the qualities-of-life of the most marginalized peoples. With this in mind, I would also argue that leftist movements absolutely must be internationalist and anti-racist in order for said leftist movements to be leftist and to remain leftist. It seems to me that an economically leftist movement that is not internationalist and anti-racist is highly likely to degenerate into a "third-positionist"/fascist movement. Thanks very much for your consideration, fellow forums posters and lurkers!
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Jul 14, 2016 02:45
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Pinterest Mom posted:Parroting ableist smear campaigns to dismiss critics is something that even you've done, CC, so you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the concern that good leftists often wield their opponents' identities and concern about identities against them. This is what I don't get. Even if we completely eliminated attacks against, abuse of, erasure of or exploitation of identity, we'd all still be completely hosed. Yes, people are going to attack one another over who they are. That's never going to stop, I promise you (though I do raise objections over what you linked being an example). More importantly, no one's arguing that 'good leftists' can't wield identity as a weapon. What they're arguing is that making the primary focus - if not the sole focus - of American leftism the elimination of the practice of othering leaves the most marginalized members of our society out to dry and is doomed to failure to boot.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:49
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the biggest problem is the people who preach "intersectionality" the most are often also those who will flip out if you dare include class in your analysis because obviously, it's the same thing as "ONLY CARING ABOUT CLASS!!!11!"
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Jul 14, 2016 02:53
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Classic Comrade posted:the biggest problem is the people who preach "intersectionality" the most are often also those who will flip out if you dare include class in your analysis ding ding ding
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Jul 14, 2016 02:53
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The only people I know of that self-identify as leftists while actually only caring about class are white people that grew up in poverty. It's kind of an understandable reaction imv.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:57
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Pinterest Mom posted:It's easy to pretend that any criticism of the left by the left actually means that the critics are neoliberals or insufficiently pure  yes that's exactly it pinterest mom. you're definitely a socialist, actually.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:58
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i love how having expectations for those who call themselves leftists is relying on "ideological purity"
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Jul 14, 2016 02:59
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NumberLast posted:This is what I don't get. Even if we completely eliminated attacks against, abuse of, erasure of or exploitation of identity, we'd all still be completely hosed. But then how is this any different than the whole 'well I'm colorblind, and you know talking about race just makes racial issues worse, aren't we all just Americans'? Like, the problem I have with a lot of this is suddenly a conversation on an 'identity' issue becomes an either-or thing. One minute you're talking about a minority issue and the next some dude is in there saying 'oh so I guess this is more important than wealth imbalance huh?' and now it's some kinda switch that we have to hit between 'fix racism' and 'fix poverty' and everything is being lost in the weeds. One example from my own experiences of this is trying to work for more LGBT homeless support, and having your conversations derailed into 'well what about the poverty issue as a whole doesn't that need fixing' and it's like yea it does but the issue at hand literally right now is it'd be cool if gay kids with no home weren't dying in the street so that's what this talk is about. You experience this kinda derailment over and over, and constantly see these grand sweeping social programs only benefit the majority, with a promise of 'aw poo poo, we'll fix that soon don't worry' and all, and can you get why some of us feel the whole 'ugh, identity politics are holding us back' thing is a lovely road to go down? I really doubt anyone is laboring under the delusion that we're going to 'fix' bigotry and somehow that's going to make the world perfect, it's more an issue where we're tired of being told our issues are actually less important to 'the revolution' when what we mainly want is to not die as much and poo poo like that. I guess what I'm saying is the main problem here is when you turn everything into a macro level debate then you lose all the local issues in the shuffle, does that make sense?
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Jul 14, 2016 03:00
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So can we actually talk about...you know...progressive/left wing candidates running for office? I have money and I am willing to donate. Already donated to Tim Canova. I realize there is the OP listing some candidates but that is from back in spring.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:02
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Classic Comrade posted:
I'm a social democrat 
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Jul 14, 2016 03:03
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There are a lot of leftists out there who reconcile the need for the elimination of both class and minority discrimination. Even an entire ideology almost solely dedicated to it 
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Jul 14, 2016 03:05
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NumberLast posted:This is what I don't get. Even if we completely eliminated attacks against, abuse of, erasure of or exploitation of identity, we'd all still be completely hosed. We can talk about both class and identity issues! What I've found is that often, when minority issues are brought up, there's an accusation from some segments of the left that they're distractions or obscuring the real issues. That's not something that was made up by Sady Doyle in order to strangle Bernie Bros, it's a real thing that a lot of people have noticed, that I've noticed in my life, and taken issue with, and it's what the letter is pushing back against. People on my side of the argument are saying class and identity, not class or identity.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:09
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