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bitprophet posted:You're not wrong, but I'll never pass up a chance to post one of the few counterexamples, because You have to link the accompanying article by Winona Nelson about her thought process in designing the art. quote:For the mood they said: “sometimes there is no recourse but to give in and stare at the sun,”
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Jul 14, 2016 07:45
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:47 |
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LR review featuring Owen Turtenwald is out.
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Jul 14, 2016 09:27
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Johnny Landmine posted:I wouldn't quit Legacy if Top were banned, but it would make me very sad since my pet deck not only runs Top itself, but largely lives off of Miracles like a remora clinging to the underbelly of a great white shark. I'm not clamoring for a ban either way but if there has to be one, Terminus is my favorite because it minimizes splash damage to other decks, gives aggro a little more breathing room and might even open up more options for Counterbalance decks. I'd be really disappointed if they banned the most effective colorless (though admittedly only Blue really plays it in practice...) card filtering option. Old school countertop before miracles was annoying as hell to play against and still won without miracles. Banning terminus (as a guy who plays miracles) is a good thing probably. On that note when a dredge player has no idea what cointainment priest does they immediately lose the game.
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Jul 14, 2016 13:18
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Toshimo posted:8/1 B&R Changes: Source for this?
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Jul 14, 2016 13:29
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lazerwolf posted:Source for this? 
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Jul 14, 2016 13:33
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lazerwolf posted:Source for this? Wishful thinking
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Jul 14, 2016 13:45
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Madmarker posted:Wishful thinking Yeah, it says "8/1" when it's not 8/1 yet.
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Jul 14, 2016 16:58
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The B&R is Monday the 18th I think, not the 1st. Miracles might be dead in four days
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Jul 14, 2016 17:00
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Toshimo posted:Nonsense. Top is used in other decks without issue. Miracles is the problem, so you need to isolate a card that only that deck uses. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. The miracles deck isn't a problem because it's overpowered, it's a problem because it promotes bad gameplay as well as slow play that holds up most legacy tournaments. The card that causes this is Top. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 17:36
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make it so joe lossett is the only person allowed to play miracles, bam problem solved
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Jul 14, 2016 17:39
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mcmagic posted:This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. The miracles deck isn't a problem because it's overpowered, it's a problem because it promotes bad gameplay as well as slow play that holds up most legacy tournaments. The card that causes this is Top.
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Jul 14, 2016 17:43
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Do non-blue decks (ie D&T, Elves, Belcher and Lands) ever play top though? e: from what I've seen the GBxish builds tend to run Sylvan Library instead
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Jul 14, 2016 17:49
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mcmagic posted:This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. The miracles deck isn't a problem because it's overpowered, it's a problem because it promotes bad gameplay as well as slow play that holds up most legacy tournaments. The card that causes this is Top. And if there's one person who knows about fundamental misunderstanding of the issues... The correct card is Terminus. Counterbalance is much less offensive than something like Chalice (which IMO also should have been banned a while ago) and is only really good with a Top out. 1 mana instant speed Wrath (which btw avoids graveyard synergy and death triggers) shouldn't exist. If Miracles had to play Supreme Verdict instead of Terminus it would have to play the early turns completely differently. No more turn 3/4 Wrath + hold up Counterspell. Irony Be My Shield posted:Do non-blue decks (ie D&T, Elves, Belcher and Lands) ever play top though? Nic Fit, Painter, Storm, Doomsday, and Sylvan Plug do at least. And I can tell you from experience that Nic Fit and Painter are completely different decks with and without Top in play. suicidesteve fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 17:53
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Countertop was a deck well before "Miracles" there was plenty of variety in lists too. It didn't dominate the meta and it didn't cause problems at tournaments The big problem having access to a 1 mana instant speed sweeper that completely changed the deck's ability to address certain unfavorable match ups. The correct ban is 100% Terminus. You could ban Top for sure, but there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to other than "kill countertop decks" I don't buy the whole "its too slow!" thing. I mean, even if you ban Top, every tournament of any moderate size will endlessly go to time anyway, its such a dumb reason to ban a card. Standard tournaments always go to time without Top and so do Modern ones, its so weird to see people talk about banning Top as if somehow its going to streamline tournament operations and rounds will just get turned over 10% quicker. The real issue with top as far as tournament ops goes is that it annoys people. Its not going to make matches faster, it won't help judges turn over rounds quicker, but goddamn do people get endlessly butthurt if you spin top and take a second to think about it. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 18:09
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I sat in with my groups standard playtesting last night and played for about 3 hours. There are 6 of us and my impression from last night and from what I gather from my friends is the following. G/W Tokens The deck doesn't really seem to get much from the new set. My team has tried to jam brisela pieces + avencyn at times and its been shaky at best. The new stuff makes the deck slower and I don't feel like that plays out well and merely looks better on paper. This deck is still probably going going to be the best tier 1 deck. It is just so consistent. W/R Humans The deck is basically 100% the same in the 75. It doesn't get better at doing what it was trying to do before with new cards and opponents don't stop their game plan any easier. Still a t1 deck for the time being. B/W Control This is the deck that feels like it gets the most out of brisela + avancyn but it has to cut a few copies of either planeswalkers or sweepers to do it. Out of the control decks this feels like the most consistant. The problem with this deck is that I feel like it doesn't have an overwhelmingly good matchup against anything and most matchups feel very 45/55 or 55/45. It is a tough deck to get the right list for. Not the deck I would want to play for the first few weeks for sure. Might be more of a t1.5 deck after release. Bant Humans A very consistant deck with just a few new toys. Thalia and squelcher are obvious choices and often this deck has a hard time to figure out the right mix of creatures because they are all so good. Tamiyo seems like it is much better than previous believed and seems to be an "i win" when it drops with a creature advantage (which this deck does very well with setting up). Probably going to be one of the most competitive decks right out of the gate. W/U spirits This deck has been getting a lot of hype and its deserved. So any variations to try in the 75 and it might take a while before something optimal separates itself. I feel like the core of the deck is squelcher, rattlechains, reflector mage, and Mausoleum Wanderer. Mausoleum Wanderer is just loving gross in this deck. Ojutai's command is also loving gross in this deck. Still trying to figure out how many avancyn, Gideon, removal, and coutermagic to use. I expect this deck to be popular because its new and because people love tribal. B/G Delerium We can't make the deck respectable and it doesn't seem like anyone else is having any luck either. The delirium cards pre-delirium are just bad. It is probably the most playtested deck we have and it is el'garbo. Maybe someone will put together something that will blow everyone away. The rest... B/R Vampires - seems to be bad and nobody in my group wants to even try Big Red - It is a cute deck that isn't consistent enough. Rolls over to dromoka's command. R/U goggles - same as it was Rites-Nobody in the group wants to play it but it might be good if b/w control is less played. Sickening fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 18:16
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Sickening posted:W/R Humans Not even Thalia? She seems like she'd be good in the board to help win the mirror.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:19
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suicidesteve posted:And if there's one person who knows about fundamental misunderstanding of the issues... I basically agree with this post entirely. Even if Verdict was an actual wrath it would be more balanced, the fact that it destroys any possible synergies on top of the hilariously dumb casting cost is just awful. Like, I'm not going to deny the power of top/balance or any of the other cards the deck plays, but holy poo poo if you actually look at terminus as played (never for 6 mana, basically) it's a broken card in its own right as well.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:22
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anglachel posted:Not even Thalia? She seems like she'd be good in the board to help win the mirror. Thalia feels is definitely a sideboard card right now when it comes to this deck. Its hard to slot in another 3 drop when you are trying to be aggressive though. While slowing down your opponent is great for this deck what do you cut for it? Always watching? A two drop? Is she better than Gideon out of the board? So far it doesn't feel like it.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:23
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Skyl3lazer posted:I basically agree with this post entirely. Look at every deck that should have a good match-up against Miracles: Delver, Death and Taxes, Elves, Merfolk, etc. The reason none of them actually do have a favorable match-up is Terminus. If my opponent had to pay 4 (or 5) mana to clear my board as Death and Taxes I could probably never lose but instead they get to pay 1/2 and hold up Swords for my EOT creature and then I lose, especially when they find the 2nd Terminus and have Snap/Swords for my EOT creature a few turns later. Miracles' bad match-ups are still >50%.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:33
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I would be surprised if they ban Terminus because it doesn't fit WotC's banning style.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:41
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They've been pretty correct that Omni-Tell was a T1 deck because of Dig, that it was Treasure Cruise and not other spells during that reign, etc. The fact that there is so much history of counter-top prior to miracles and then there's no diversity in decks using counter-top after terminus makes it pretty clear that terminus is a huge card in that deck. Given the belief that Miracles is the only hard control deck in the entire format and that having one of those helps keep combo in line will keep them from wanting to kill it entirely. IMHO if you're gonna ban counterbalance or top, also ban delver while you're at it to nuke the meta entirely.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:55
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For top to be banned, another must be sacrificed on the alter. Whom shall pay the price? Depths? Delver? Lion's Eye Diamond? Æther Vial (Since the ligature change might as well ban)? Who among you is brave enough to face this bold new world.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:14
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Toshimo posted:8/1 B&R Changes: gently caress yes. I built a Channel deck about a year ago, almost viable despite having 1 channel and a pile of tutors. Chamale fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 19:23
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Skyl3lazer posted:For top to be banned, another must be sacrificed on the alter. Whom shall pay the price? Depths? Delver? Lion's Eye Diamond? Æther Vial (Since the ligature change might as well ban)? Who among you is brave enough to face this bold new world. NVM Google is my friend. Yes the ligature change needs a ban, so they can print out Aether Flask next set. Thisuck fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 19:25
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Sickening posted:W/U spirits This deck doesn't need Gideon at all
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Jul 14, 2016 19:26
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80s James Hetfield posted:This deck doesn't need Gideon at all Well, its biggest weakness that you can identify when you play the deck is the the power level of your creatures and spells are only powerful when working together. The longer the game goes on and the more top deck mode you go the more often you need a powerful card to finish the game. Sometimes avancyn is more than enough. Sometimes avancyn is hurtful because she wipes your own board. Gideon fits that role just fine as a 2-3 of just like avacyn. It has synergy with your creatures as it is sometimes easy to go wide with flyers (emblem) and often enough just a powerful 5/5 you overpower your opponent with. It also can't be languished. Even though you have 8 creatures that stop languish it doesn't hurt to have a non-creature wincon that gets past it.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:32
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B&R Update, 7/18: Vintage: Æ Restricted Legacy: Sensei's Divining Top Banned, Verdant Catacombs Banned, Secrets of Paradise Unbanned Modern: Tree of Tales Unbanned Pauper: Format is cancelled, nobody actually plays it you fuckers
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Jul 14, 2016 19:34
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Elyv posted:I would be surprised if they ban Terminus because it doesn't fit WotC's banning style. I think terminus is a fine ban depending on wotcs goals. They've been favoring just killing decks instead of balancing or nerfing lately though so I'm expecting top or cb. From those I think top is the better ban because it's only barely more played and solves the "people whining about top" problem.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:37
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Death Bot posted:I think terminus is a fine ban depending on wotcs goals. They've been favoring just killing decks instead of balancing or nerfing lately though so I'm expecting top or cb. From those I think top is the better ban because it's only barely more played and solves the "people whining about top" problem. Well the last ban only hit one of the Eldrazi lands, I mean, the deck isn't bullshit good anymore, but it's still playable.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:42
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Banning top just after reprinting it in ema would be an odd move by wizards, but I have no confidence that wotc is structured in such a way that that kind of communication is even able to be made.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:47
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Elyv posted:I would be surprised if they ban Terminus because it doesn't fit WotC's banning style. No, they like to ban/restrict the thing that a few idiots who don't play the format whine about loudly. Sigma-X posted:They've been pretty correct that Omni-Tell was a T1 deck because of Dig, that it was Treasure Cruise and not other spells during that reign, etc. Sure, they identified the clearly broken cards that warped the meta to the point of unplayability. They also restricted Chalice of the Void because a few people who barely play the format complained loudly that their Gush (and also 4 Dig) decks had one bad match-up. They restricted Lodestone Golem, in spite of the fact that the format was the best it had ever been, because a few people who barely play the format complained loudly that their Gush decks had one match-up that was only slightly in their favor in stead of heavily in their favor. They didn't touch Gush even though it was the clear choice if anything really needed to get restricted. I'm pretty sure they have no idea what they're doing. Dr. Stab posted:Banning top just after reprinting it in ema would be an odd move by wizards, but I have no confidence that wotc is structured in such a way that that kind of communication is even able to be made. The did the same to Twin.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:50
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Dr. Stab posted:Banning top just after reprinting it in ema would be an odd move by wizards, but I have no confidence that wotc is structured in such a way that that kind of communication is even able to be made. Devil's advocate here, but Splinter Twin was in MM15 and got banned less than a year later. E: STEVEEEE 
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Jul 14, 2016 19:52
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Dr. Stab posted:Banning top just after reprinting it in ema would be an odd move by wizards, but I have no confidence that wotc is structured in such a way that that kind of communication is even able to be made. There's a card banned from Modern in MM2015.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:52
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Terminus is absolutely the card to ban if you feel that miracles needs to go; countertop decks are perfectly reasonable, but they should at least theoretically have an issue with decks other than 12 post
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Jul 14, 2016 19:59
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GeneX posted:Terminus is absolutely the card to ban if you feel that miracles needs to go; countertop decks are perfectly reasonable, but they should at least theoretically have an issue with decks other than 12 post 12post isn't a bad matchup for miracles anymore (but it's because of mentor, not terminus)
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Jul 14, 2016 20:01
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Death Bot posted:I think terminus is a fine ban depending on wotcs goals. They've been favoring just killing decks instead of balancing or nerfing lately though so I'm expecting top or cb. From those I think top is the better ban because it's only barely more played and solves the "people whining about top" problem. Which decks did they kill in legacy in the last four bans? Dr. Stab posted:Banning top just after reprinting it in ema would be an odd move by wizards, but I have no confidence that wotc is structured in such a way that that kind of communication is even able to be made. MM15 had Splinter Twin and that vanished pretty quickly so I wouldn't take input from their printings. You can still use Top in Commander, etc.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:04
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suicidesteve posted:
Nobody ever wrote a book about chalice or golem though.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:05
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I’m going to be somewhat blunt here. The single biggest misunderstanding here is that there can be any understanding. Nobody should be under the illusion that you can actually understand how a highly complex piece of software works without studying the code itself. Especially when that software has been running more or less continuously for fifteen years without being taken down, and the game rules engine is more complex than a lot of the systems NASA works with. Many of the problems that we’ve faced come from old assumptions that got broken at some point: mana symbols are only one color (but only until Ravnica: City of Guilds), colorless mana is strictly inferior to colored mana (but only until Oath of the Gatewatch), game objects are represented by one or zero cards (but only until Eldritch Moon), etc. Who knows what kinds of assumptions will turn out to be false in the future? I mean, even I only know the next few years of Magic. What assumptions will we be challenging in 2020? No idea! When I started on MTGO, I thought I knew it all. I’m a pretty smart cookie and I’m used to being one of (if not the) smartest people in whatever room I’m in. So I used to say things like “Well it seems simple if we just use this logic here,” but in my naivete, I only got blank stares from the Cardset team. Sometimes laughter. I’m mostly pretty sure they were well-meaning with the laughter. These guys are smart. These guys are clever. These guys are working on some very difficult challenges and when they hear “advice” from someone like me who doesn’t know how the code works that much, it’s almost like listening to a child solve bigotry by saying “Well why don’t you just be nice to them and they’ll like you?” Or a first-year psych undergrad talk about deep insights into the human mind. Or someone brand new to Magic telling you that it’s such an easy game and how can you be so invested in something so simple. It’s not that the people offering those ideas aren’t potentially themselves very smart and capable, but people naive to complex problems generally don’t even have the framework to understand how complex the problems are and how little they actually understand. There’s a perception from some parts that people solving the problems are incredibly stupid, and that the problems are easy. In reality, we have some fantastic people working very hard, and it’s the problems that are incredibly hard. I think it’s fair to have high expectations for us and for the Magic Online team as a whole. I also think it’s just as fair to be very clear about the nature of the problems we deal with on the completely inflexible timelines that we deal with. TLDR: The player base doesn’t even know what it doesn’t know, but thinks it knows anyway.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:06
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I agree, the concept of polymorphism isn't something we could have ever predicted. I mean, when magic online was first created in the early 70's, we didn't even know there would be cards! How could we know reprints would be possible!
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Jul 14, 2016 20:10
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:47 |
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Reminder That Every Card For Every Edition Is Programmed Separately
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Jul 14, 2016 20:10
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