|
blarzgh assumes tickets are given out for law enforcement purposes. Given that assumption, don't doubt he's right. Those who claim that tickets are used for other reasons reject that premise. If the cops are handing out tickets for reasons other than law enforcement, blarzgh's whole argument becomes moot.
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2016 23:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 03:38 |
|
|
doverhog posted:blarzgh assumes tickets are given out for law enforcement purposes. Given that assumption, don't doubt he's right. Those who claim that tickets are used for other reasons reject that premise. If the cops are handing out tickets for reasons other than law enforcement, blarzgh's whole argument becomes moot. What other purpose does a citation for a crime serve other than a law enforcement purpose? Unless you're suggesting fraudulent tickets, but that's a different matter altogether.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:17
|
|
|
EwokEntourage posted:Is this a metaphor or do they really partition traffic court with glass?  I know it was just used, but I had to.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:20
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:What other purpose does a citation for a crime serve other than a law enforcement purpose? Unless you're suggesting fraudulent tickets, but that's a different matter altogether. To establish jurisdiction over your body so the gold fringe cabal can enforce maritime law on you in a land locked state.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:22
|
|
|
doverhog posted:blarzgh assumes tickets are given out for law enforcement purposes. Given that assumption, don't doubt he's right. Those who claim that tickets are used for other reasons reject that premise. If the cops are handing out tickets for reasons other than law enforcement, blarzgh's whole argument becomes moot. Don't forget the red light cameras.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:24
|
|
|
patentmagus posted:Don't forget the red light cameras. which are bullshit, and unconstitutional, by the way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:32
|
|
|
Blarzgh I'm sorry my traffic ticket joke made you into a caricature. But you're the one who then started PROSECUTING TRAFFIC TICKETS AFTER I MADE THE JOKE! You earned it buddy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:34
|
|
|
I'd buy "it's just for enforcement" if the money went somewhere other than the coffers of the municipality doing the ticketing. After all, if the sole purpose is deterrence, then you can just light the money on fire in front of the offender for the same effect, right? Maybe donate it to a charity, if option A is too wasteful. Just not directly into the coffers of the city/county/state that writes the laws they profit from and pinky swears it's only about deterrence. Some places are decent, some aren't, etc, but there are unquestionably places that abuse it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:36
|
|
|
Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Blarzgh I'm sorry my traffic ticket joke made you into a caricature. But you're the one who then started PROSECUTING TRAFFIC TICKETS AFTER I MADE THE JOKE! You earned it buddy. I've come by it fairly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:41
|
|
|
Javid posted:I'd buy "it's just for enforcement" if the money went somewhere other than the coffers of the municipality doing the ticketing. After all, if the sole purpose is deterrence, then you can just light the money on fire in front of the offender for the same effect, right? Maybe donate it to a charity, if option A is too wasteful. Just not directly into the coffers of the city/county/state that writes the laws they profit from and pinky swears it's only about deterrence. What would you have them do? Imprison people for speeding? I fought a traffic ticket (and won  ) and it was just a Normal court room so the glass wall thing is weird to me
EwokEntourage fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 00:51
|
|
|
For what it's worth my lawyer career has let me see horrific things on highways, such that (a) I'm ready to adopt robot cars immediately and (b) I have no sympathy for people who violate traffic laws and think the penalties should be much harsher. But I also recognize that they're not applied or enforced in the most fair and efficient manner. If you speed through a work zone you deserve prison.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 01:14
|
|
|
On a side note, I saw blarzgh's car today
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 02:21
|
|
|
While it's not the original purpose of traffic laws, police love the fact that they can use them to detain almost any driver that they want, and they don't have to provide any justification other than the driver allegedly committed a traffic violation. If people routinely break a law, the law should be changed, surely it is possible to write traffic laws that the majority of drivers will want to follow. Edit: For example, a lower speed limit in actual work zones is fine, but I've seen those signs in areas where the only evidence of construction is a few orange cones on the side of the road, and very few people respect them in that situation. Konstantin fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jul 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 02:32
|
|
|
Konstantin posted:While it's not the original purpose of traffic laws, police love the fact that they can use them to detain almost any driver that they want, and they don't have to provide any justification other than the driver allegedly committed a traffic violation. If people routinely break a law, the law should be changed, surely it is possible to write traffic laws that the majority of drivers will want to follow. At least one court has concluded that higher fines for speeding in a work zone only applies when workers are present, so at least there's that. The DOT around here has started using variable speed signs for highway construction. Weekend and all lanes are clear? 70 mph. 2:00 on Tuesday afternoon and 2 lanes are closed? 45. It works well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 03:05
|
|
|
If you've only seen work zone signs where a few orange cones are out, you've never been to a major city, you're lying, or you're willfully ignorant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 04:06
|
|
|
Hot Dog Day #91 posted:If you've only seen work zone signs where a few orange cones are out, you've never been to a major city, you're lying, or you're willfully ignorant. You added "only."
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 04:09
|
|
|
Oh I guess I did. Or rather I saw it later in the paragraph and transposed it earlier to fit my narrative.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 04:28
|
|
|
Javid posted:I'd buy "it's just for enforcement" if the money went somewhere other than the coffers of the municipality doing the ticketing. After all, if the sole purpose is deterrence, then you can just light the money on fire in front of the offender for the same effect, right? Maybe donate it to a charity, if option A is too wasteful. Just not directly into the coffers of the city/county/state that writes the laws they profit from and pinky swears it's only about deterrence. What about the cost to the municipality in processing, equipment, training, and paying any staff involved in the ticketing? As far as I know police don't do traffic enforcement on their spare time. And for the cost of taking a $200 ticket to court, I'll bet the cost in time of staff involved is pretty high. Especially if the prosecution has a lawyer. quote:For what it's worth my lawyer career has let me see horrific things on highways, such that (a) I'm ready to adopt robot cars immediately and (b) I have no sympathy for people who violate traffic laws and think the penalties should be much harsher. But I also recognize that they're not applied or enforced in the most fair and efficient manner.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 09:12
|
|
|
Like what do people think happens to all that money that comes in from riding traffic tickets? I think cops just get to take it home? Do they make big bags of it and swim in it like Scrooge McDuck?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 13:09
|
|
|
Their boss congratulates them on a job well done, "nice job buddy, you met your quota for the month".
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 13:13
|
|
|
blarzgh posted:Like what do people think happens to all that money that comes in from riding traffic tickets? I think cops just get to take it home? Do they make big bags of it and swim in it like Scrooge McDuck? That not-ironically used to be how Georgia speed traps worked - police officers on commission of tickets.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 13:31
|
|
|
For what it's worth, I know a police officer in a major US city and I have gathered that enforcing traffic laws was almost never the purpose of pulling someone over for traffic infractions. I take that it was the basis to investigate for other crimes nearly every single time. I assume that is mostly true everywhere guns and drugs are a police priority.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 13:59
|
|
|
glynnenstein posted:For what it's worth, I know a police officer in a major US city and I have gathered that enforcing traffic laws was almost never the purpose of pulling someone over for traffic infractions. I take that it was the basis to investigate for other crimes nearly every single time. I assume that is mostly true everywhere guns and drugs are a police priority. This is definitely common in high crime/urban areas.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 14:19
|
|
|
This whole derail started because someone was saying that tickets were given for non-LE purposes. Getting pulled over is not the same as getting a ticket. I will concede that not all traffic stops are indeed for traffic violation purposes. However, I still contend that citations given subsequently always serve an LE purpose.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 14:22
|
|
|
doverhog posted:Their boss congratulates them on a job well done, "nice job buddy, you met your quota for the month". I've seen cops get in trouble for not writing enough tickets, because it meant they were being lazy and didn't feel like pulling people over. Assuming a cop works traffic for X hours a month, they should, in theory, hand out approximately X number of tickets.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 14:23
|
|
|
It's cool that pretty much all the justifications for traffic tickets don't even apply to DUI laws yet DUIs have more public support despite their far harsher penalties and complete ridiculousness
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 15:00
|
|
|
Guy Axlerod posted:The buyer should also retain their own lawyer, because they aren't going to be interested in your lawyers opinion. If I'm the buyer in that transaction, I first want an answer from the seller and then I'm checking with my own lawyer. I'd ask the seller even if I'm not planning on relying on it because it's a serious issue and I want to know how aware the seller is of any other potential landmines in their business and how much they're disclosing them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 15:20
|
|
|
MADD was the original Outrage Politic
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 15:20
|
|
|
blarzgh posted:MADD was the original Outrage Politic 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 15:29
|
|
|
"DEAL!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 15:31
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:It's cool that pretty much all the justifications for traffic tickets don't even apply to DUI laws yet DUIs have more public support despite their far harsher penalties and complete ridiculousness It still blows my mind that people can rack up 3-4-5 DUIs and somehow get a license again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 15:45
|
|
|
Phil Moscowitz posted:Perhaps it's the best of all possible worlds...the police can enforce the law and raise money on the backs of the poor...all at the same time!! doverhog posted:blarzgh assumes tickets are given out for law enforcement purposes. Given that assumption, don't doubt he's right. Those who claim that tickets are used for other reasons reject that premise. If the cops are handing out tickets for reasons other than law enforcement, blarzgh's whole argument becomes moot. glynnenstein posted:For what it's worth, I know a police officer in a major US city and I have gathered that enforcing traffic laws was almost never the purpose of pulling someone over for traffic infractions. I take that it was the basis to investigate for other crimes nearly every single time. I assume that is mostly true everywhere guns and drugs are a police priority. The thing about these guys is they don't need an excuse or a quota or anything. If you are a cop and you want to write someone a speeding ticket, just sit along a stretch of highway or the busiest road in town and you will nail somebody. And not for some chickenshit 1-over or whatever, they can catch people going 10+ over almost faster than they can get back on their bikes after a stop. The other thing about these guys is they're probably the fairest of all cops because they work high-traffic thoroughfares and often stop people they've never met and will never see again, and can basically never have an invalid citation if they don't want one because they can just toss the ones that they have even the smallest doubt about and write 3 more good ones. And that's all a good thing, but it also just so happens these guys get lavished with money for new bikes and fancy laser systems because wouldn't you know it, writing traffic tickets all day is a pretty good way to make money. Nakar fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jul 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
"Yeah, haha, wink wink nod nod, it's all about money, haha, stupid Poor's, haha, hope nobody on the internet learns to read our minds, haha."
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
Eh, in places where the police are not hurting for revenue they tend not to sweat the speeding violations it seems. Speed in a school zone or construction zone and they will bend you over though. (Northern NV urban area)
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
As long as the ticket money goes to some kind of local government entity there is incentive to use it as a form of tax. They should go to the federal government, that way the recipient of the money is far enough removed. That's how it's done here (Finland), minus the federal part. Ticket revenue is just added to the national budget, police departments or municipalities get nothing from tickets.
doverhog fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jul 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 22:13
|
|
|
doverhog posted:As long as the ticket money goes to some kind of local government entity there is incentive to use it as a form of tax. They should go to the federal government, that way the recipient of the money is far enough removed. That's how it's done here (Finland), minus the federal part. Ticket revenue is just added to the national budget, police departments or municipalities get nothing from tickets. It doesn't matter where the money goes. A citation is only given when a crime has occurred. All traffic citations are for law enforcement purposes. Specifically to deter people from breaking the law. You proposed that tickets could be given for a non-law enforcement purpose. Can you provide any example of this where the cited party wasn't also actually innocent? Outside of racism, I can't think of any in particular. I'm not convinced by a revenue driven argument, because the source of said revenue is law breakers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 22:29
|
|
|
If tickets are a source of revenue and are handed out with such vigor that the law breaking actually goes down, there is going to be pressure on the cops to keep up their ticket numbers. This is not good. The incentive is "more tickets more money", not "less tickets less crime". This is turning into a derail tho.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 22:54
|
|
|
doverhog posted:If tickets are a source of revenue and are handed out with such vigor that the law breaking actually goes down, there is going to be pressure on the cops to keep up their ticket numbers. This is not good. The incentive is "more tickets more money", not "less tickets less crime". This is turning into a derail tho. What I'm saying is, if people aren't breaking the law (racist police aside), they aren't receiving tickets. There's a very easy solution to avoiding traffic citations and I'm not ever swayed by any revenue generation arguments. Pressure on police to issue tickets doesn't matter because you actually have to break the law to get a ticket. https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/3cb7f4d6-6624-4a7a-a60b-bfdc31e7794c
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 23:05
|
|
|
Revenue generation provides an incentive to trap people into speeding with poorly signed dramatic speed limit changes not supported by public safety. New Rome, OH is just the most dramatic example, but a fair number of towns do this. It became such an issue that in California has actually banned many of the speed trap tactics Yes, technically they're doing 55 in a 45, but that is only because you dropped the limit on a 55mph road with no warning or reason. This is why CA requires an actual speed survey to reduce limits with certain requirements re warnings, which other states don't do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 23:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 03:38 |
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:Pressure on police to issue tickets doesn't matter because you actually have to break the law to get a ticket. Not really. There are a lot of relatively vague traffic statutes, even before you pull speed trap bs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 23:39
|
|