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Hogge Wild posted:pro-click Extreme agreement. (and his blog says there's going to be more) 
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Jul 17, 2016 21:47
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Holy epic backstory!
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Jul 17, 2016 21:47
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Wittgen posted:Name of the Wind has both rule based magic and "magic is just magic" magic. Game of Thrones magic isn't really the focal point, but it seems to be just magic. At the very least, everyone, even the people performing the magic, understand it so poorly that it might as well be. Harry Potter's magic doesn't seem to follow any rule or reason. Harry Potter specifically mentions a large part of the classes are devoted to learning magical theory, we just never get to know most of how it works because it's not important for the story that we know, just that it has limits. Generally magic needs limits to it in order to not just have the plot be resolved by "wizard makes the bad thing go away", which naturally lends itself to people coming up with pseudo-scientific systems of magic. Some writers just decide "hey I spent ages working out how magic is going to work, no drat way I'm not shoving it down everyone's throat no matter what," despite that not serving the story at all.
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Jul 17, 2016 21:48
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mycot posted:Yeah rule based magic is in fuckin everything and I think the last writer to really have a "magic is just magic" approach was Tolkien? No way, that stuff's common as anything, just going from the shelves in front of me I see Elizabeth Bear's "Range of Ghosts", a bunch of Glen Cook's stuff, basically the entirety of Nina Kiriki Hoffman's books (start with "The Thread that Binds the Bones" and the "The Red Hears of Memories"/"Past the Size of Dreaming" duology), 'The Etched City' by K.J. Bishop, and I'll stop here except to mention you have all sorts of Tim Powers books.
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Jul 17, 2016 21:54
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Yeah it's very hard to have stakes without an idea of what a character's options are. Spiderman (without the long post-hoc comic book bullshit they added later that I don't know or care about the details of) is a good magic system. Shoots webs. Super strong. Clings to walls. Spider sense. You know what spidey can and can't do, so he's not gonna breathe fire to escape or summon the undead or start flying around to get out of a tricky situation. But the audience doesn't need to know whether he's I dunno fabricating the webs out of radioactive magitek particles spawned by one of the 666 primordial spider daemons, or whether his spider sense relies on radio waves and cosmic jujumcgumbos derived from the Ur-Spider at the Centre of The Webs of Fate... Or exactly how many pounds he can benchpress. Now for antagonists and background poo poo you really don't need to explain nearly as much as that because ultimately they're there to create challenges for the heroes to overcome. That said, you need to have enough consequences baked into the story so that the audience doesn't go 'whaaaaaat???' when dropping a random piece of jewelry into a volcano kills the main villain. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 21:55
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Tunicate posted:Audience doesn't need to know ... Unfortunately, the audience disagreed, and that's how you get Roys Thomas.
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Jul 17, 2016 22:02
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quote:Meanwhile Skuld assembled a troop of the best fighters as well as the worst rabble from neighbouring provinces. This treachery was concealed so that King Hrolf was completely unaware of it. Likewise the champions suspected nothing, because it was done with the most skilful magic and sorcery. Skuld, to overpower her brother King Hrolf, fashioned a spell of high potency, which summoned elves, norns and countless other vile creatures. No human power could withstand so strong a force. What the gently caress is this bullshit, fix your magic system
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Jul 17, 2016 22:03
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There was something I read a long, looong time ago when I was a kid, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it had a basis for magic that I really liked. Basically, magic can do anything, a powerful magician can pretty much cast a spell that has no real limits. However, a spell can only ever be cast once. Once you cast a spell, that's it, the effect can never be replicated. So how good you were as a magician basically consisted of how cleverly you could think around this and come up with new poo poo. Also magicians really hated fighting because A) they would deplete their own stockpile of unique spells, and B) there's no way to tell if someone else has already come up with and used a spell you have prepared, so you might end up not actually being able to cast the defenses you've prepared. I thought it was a pretty neat, concise way to do it. No explanations needed, "It's magic, stupid", but there were definite limits placed on the protagonists and the antagonists, and also very clear reasons why deus ex machina weren't really applicable. (All the best godly spells had been used ages ago) I wish I could remember what the name of the book was... Edit: I think I remember one of the protagonist's companions being a really powerful wizard by virtue of the fact that he realized you could recast other's spells if you just changed minute elements to make them technically different. His signature thing was just coloring everything purple. Purple lightning, purple fireballs, etc. Captain Bravo fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 22:19
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Witches and "professional" magic are a thing that's already becoming more prevalent in Poppy and I spent so long struggling with myself over how much of the extremely detailed rules of magic I wanted to cover in the comic. Magical systems are a lot of fun to write about, but not so much fun to slog through in the middle of a plot. I eventually decided to compromise by having a witch character start to go into a long, comprehensive explanation of how magic works and immediately being cut off by Poppy telling him she doesn't care.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:13
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Captain Bravo posted:Noted webcomic: The Lord of the Rings. I only mentioned it to bring up how old it is darn it.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:35
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Captain Bravo posted:There was something I read a long, looong time ago when I was a kid, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it had a basis for magic that I really liked. Basically, magic can do anything, a powerful magician can pretty much cast a spell that has no real limits. That was sort of a thing in Piers Anthony's "Split Infinities" books but it doesn't quite match up.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:41
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Morbi posted:Witches and "professional" magic are a thing that's already becoming more prevalent in Poppy and I spent so long struggling with myself over how much of the extremely detailed rules of magic I wanted to cover in the comic. Magical systems are a lot of fun to write about, but not so much fun to slog through in the middle of a plot. Bonus points if you draw it like a presentation being given on a Tablet, which Poppy shoves into the corner with disgusted rage.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:50
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I think the important "rules" to have in place are the effects you will let magic have on your story, not on specific events per se. For example instead of having an unstated "rule" that magic cannot affect... wood or whatever, you might say hey, magic cannot be used in a way that it removes the credibility of sacrifices made by the characters.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:58
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I like when you establish the rules you then get to do all kinds of creative tweaks to them, like bending in avatar. It's initially mostly air and fire blasts or chucking rocks around, and then you get regular injections of new ideas which mean nothing if magic just does what they want. Metal and then lava coming from earth bending, removing the air from around someones head. Just lots of places where they could run with the concepts and the implications purely because they set out the rules. That's rules as opposed to the actual science of it though.
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Jul 18, 2016 00:26
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I thought I liked rules based magic until I read Brandon Sanderson books 
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Jul 18, 2016 00:42
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Morbi posted:Witches and "professional" magic are a thing that's already becoming more prevalent in Poppy and I spent so long struggling with myself over how much of the extremely detailed rules of magic I wanted to cover in the comic. Magical systems are a lot of fun to write about, but not so much fun to slog through in the middle of a plot. probs the best way to go when your comic is not fundamentally about a bunch of giant nerds who care about that poo poo I really appreciate that say all the crazy poo poo that happens in KSBD just sorta happens; the main character has no idea how it all works or what people can and can't do and the precise mechanics of the insane lightning teleporting imaginary sword mask monster nonsense could hardly matter less to the actual story anyway because the only way anyone gets things done is by playing the people behind the arbitrary impossible superpowers. I was kinda let down when Operant went back and started adding in expository pages to explain it, which seemed to limit the whole thing and make it more mundane. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 00:58
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Captain Bravo posted:Noted webcomic: The Lord of the Rings. There's always DM of the Rings.
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Jul 18, 2016 01:06
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I think there's at least one very good reason to give your magic/"weird power bullshit" system a few very clear rules and limitations: Being explicitly told "magic cannot do this" and then having a character find a clever, logically sound loophole around it to solve a problem is extremely satisfying.
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Jul 18, 2016 01:48
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Just to keep on keeping on about magic systems and the like, I think the biggest problem with them isn't that they're inherently wrong or anything. It's just that a lot of less good authors don't seem to realize the reader doesn't need to know everything in one terrible info dump. Slowly revealing things as necessary or even letting readers piece it together can be cool as long as you're consistent, but only a small amount of super nerdy people want to sit there and read through a massive block of text like they're playing a game and the tutorial NPC won't shut up.
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Jul 18, 2016 02:15
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Scaramouche posted:I thought I liked rules based magic until I read Brandon Sanderson books I actually really liked the first Mistborn trilogy, for some reason. I wouldn't mind a webcomic with that level of specificity, but I totally get how people didn't like it. Edit: Nuebot posted:Just to keep on keeping on about magic systems and the like, I think the biggest problem with them isn't that they're inherently wrong or anything. It's just that a lot of less good authors don't seem to realize the reader doesn't need to know everything in one terrible info dump. Slowly revealing things as necessary or even letting readers piece it together can be cool as long as you're consistent, but only a small amount of super nerdy people want to sit there and read through a massive block of text like they're playing a game and the tutorial NPC won't shut up. I feel like I've mentioned it twice already since I started reading this thread, but this in particular is one thing I love about Stand Still, Stay Silent. She does a really good job of giving you world-relevant info after you see it the first time, so you have a chance to speculate and see it in action, and she's generally really clever about how information is actually presented, usually as in-world informational packets, or posters, or blueprints, etc. I think if more comics took this approach, rather than a "Let me now take five pages to explain my exquisitely crafted magic system" approach, they'd be more palatable. MockingQuantum fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 02:19
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Morbi posted:I think there's at least one very good reason to give your magic/"weird power bullshit" system a few very clear rules and limitations: this is true for things beside just magic systems making up rules just to thing clever ways around them is fun
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Jul 18, 2016 03:24
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Scaramouche posted:I thought I liked rules based magic until I read Brandon Sanderson books He's starting from the premise that God can do anything, but God got broken into pieces, and like a hologram, each piece contains one view of the entire God (ie: universe) so each universe has a distinct, limited subset of magic. I honestly thought it was an okay starting point for the stories he is telling, though Sanderson sometimes stops telling a story and starts just saying what is happening, which I find really disappointing when I encounter it.
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Jul 18, 2016 04:51
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Morbi posted:I think there's at least one very good reason to give your magic/"weird power bullshit" system a few very clear rules and limitations: It can be good for establishing limitations of characters and providing stakes, so that when they find a way around those limitations it means something. The problem is that a lot of comics then lose sight of what they were actually about in the first place and become about esoteric magical rules that don't mean anything instead 
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Jul 18, 2016 05:27
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i'm magic
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Jul 18, 2016 05:29
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My favourite magical rules in fiction is in the Glorantha setting. Stories have power, and you reeneact stories to gain that power. gently caress them up and uh, who knows. Maybe that was how the story went all along? Then some assholes came and powergamed the rules until the whole world came over and annilihated them. http://glorantha.tumblr.com/post/96499741818/where-did-the-god-learners-come-from-when-and
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Jul 18, 2016 05:32
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Morbi posted:Being explicitly told "magic cannot do this" and then having a character find a clever, logically sound loophole around it to solve a problem is extremely satisfying. This is a good reason. In general, though, one also wants to establish at least a few ground rules as a way of playing fair with the audience. Otherwise, it drains all the tension out of the story. Magic can just happen and fix anything, ever; why worry about what might happen when magic will just fix it all? It's even worse when there's magic on both sides and any contests between them become a series of magical rear end-pulls of steadily increasing egregiousness. It's like watching six-year-olds play make-believe fights where they spend a lot of time going "nuh-uh, you missed", only it's one person pretending to be two six-year-olds. (Admittedly, stories are always a bit like that, but you're at least supposed to TRY to conceal it.)
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Jul 18, 2016 06:26
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Isn't even the vast but ill-defined power of muscle mystery limited by how hard Flex Mentallo can flex?
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Jul 18, 2016 07:21
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idonotlikepeas posted:It's even worse when there's magic on both sides and any contests between them become a series of magical rear end-pulls of steadily increasing egregiousness. It's like watching six-year-olds play make-believe fights where they spend a lot of time going "nuh-uh, you missed", only it's one person pretending to be two six-year-olds. Yes we get it, you read bleach
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Jul 18, 2016 08:12
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Wittgen posted:You might also enjoy Wilde Life. It's kind of a rural urban fantasy set in Oklahoma. Holy moly, thanks for this. What a great comic!
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Jul 18, 2016 10:16
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Tunicate posted:Yes we get it, you read bleach Well, it's why I don't, but yes, precisely. It's not even a specific thing to magic, just storytelling. For a non-magic example, take the Prime Directive in Star Trek. The Prime Directive may tell you something about how Starfleet operates, but its real purpose in any given story is to give the characters an obstacle to struggle against, with the conflict driving the plot. In any good episode involving it, the only purpose of introducing the Prime Directive is to prevent the characters from instantly winning the day. Instead, we get to be impressed by their cleverness when they finally figure out how to do the right thing despite it. (Or fail to, if it's supposed to be depressing.) But, of course, the entire thing can be summarized as one sentence: "Don't interfere with any low-tech alien cultures." There's not a twenty-minute break in the episode it's first introduced in to explain the entire legal system of the Federation, which is the mistake you see a lot of people making when they have no editorial oversight. Background is usually best kept as background, with details leaked out as needed to prep the story for future events.
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Jul 18, 2016 14:15
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Authors who treat magic just as a set of superpowers are hacks. World-builders, too.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Authors who treat magic just as a set of superpowers are hacks. World-builders, too. Oh you have a new avatar now. I was wondering why this post was so contrarian and yet simultaneously so devoid of substance.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:46
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my magic power is to poo poo out tiny women whom i nurture to full-sized maturity over the course of a few days by chewing up and regurgitating food into their mouths. once they're big enough to breed i release them into the wild. they never return
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Jul 18, 2016 15:55
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The best magic is in Conan, where it's practice is a sign of evil and to be snuffed out
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Jul 18, 2016 16:07
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:The best magic is in Conan, where it's practice is a sign of evil and to be snuffed out There are some magicians in Conan who are Cool Dudes, just not many.
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Jul 18, 2016 16:54
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idonotlikepeas posted:Well, it's why I don't, but yes, precisely. Ah, ok. Because that's literally how a fight went three chapters back.
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Jul 18, 2016 17:03
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Captain Oblivious posted:Oh you have a new avatar now. I was wondering why this post was so contrarian and yet simultaneously so devoid of substance. The truth frightens you.
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Jul 18, 2016 17:25
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:The best magic is in Conan, where it's practice is a sign of evil and to be snuffed out   grrm's magic system is very similar in the game of throne's and imo that's the best kind of magic system ie. in most cases let only the antagonists use it, it can do anything that the plot requires, it's spooky and mystical, and it's never explained clearly
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Jul 18, 2016 17:31
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Tunicate posted:Ah, ok. I heard that the last chapter ended on the confrontation of two big bad guys whose powers are both "gently caress YOU I WIN" in completely different ways and there's no way that situation can play out that isn't the dumbest poo poo ever.
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Jul 18, 2016 18:44
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Morbi posted:I heard that the last chapter ended on the confrontation of two big bad guys whose powers are both "gently caress YOU I WIN" in completely different ways and there's no way that situation can play out that isn't the dumbest poo poo ever. They had a confrontation where a guy shot another one. And then the second guy was like 'nah uh, my power is that you get hurt instead', and the first guy was like 'well nah uh, that's my power except you get bad things that happen to me AND I get good things that happen to you too'
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Jul 18, 2016 18:53
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