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The GAULEMs in ZTD were clearly way less advanced at least.
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Jul 24, 2016 01:01
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I'm really stuck on something. One of the reasons Delta trapped everyone in the shelter was to ensure he could be born. But since the transporter works by sending the contents to other timelines, isn't that totally superfluous? Unlike Akane in 999, Delta's existence was assured merely by the fact of his existing. He didn't need to jump through any hoops. If the idea was to propagate his (totally unlikely and fluky) existence throughout the many histories, there's another problem. Wouldn't Sigma and Diana need to be locked in that shelter--with that very specific set of circumstances--by someone other than Delta, at least once? Otherwise, it's a chicken-and-egg problem. How can Delta go back to the future and make sure he was born if he wasn't born "normally" at least once? Who was the first Zero that locked Sigma and Diana in during this hypothetical "original" game? Is there a post-game scene in this one like there was in VLR?
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Jul 24, 2016 01:22
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Every single game has a chicken and egg scenario like that. How could Akane be alive if future her didn't set up a Nonary Game, for example?
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Jul 24, 2016 01:43
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Neopie posted:Every single game has a chicken and egg scenario like that. How could Akane be alive if future her didn't set up a Nonary Game, for example? they sorta changed how the multiverse stuff worked after 999, in 999 akane is erased from existence in all the bad endings where you fail to close the loop
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Jul 24, 2016 01:47
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Yeah, Tautological reinforcement is a pretty big part of the ZE series and it's kind of a necessity for its conclusion.
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Jul 24, 2016 01:48
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999 seemed to be working under the rules of that one famous movie with M-kun in it.
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Jul 24, 2016 01:51
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Neopie posted:Every single game has a chicken and egg scenario like that. How could Akane be alive if future her didn't set up a Nonary Game, for example? Well, it's been a while, but doesn't she blink out of existence on some of the routes that don't lead to "Doki-Doki Sudoku PANIC: Inferno Edition"? Her existence is a schrodingers cat-style paradox that has to resolve itself during the Nonary game.
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Jul 24, 2016 01:52
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The fevers she gets on routes that aren't the true end are literally her dying in a fire, yes.
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Jul 24, 2016 01:53
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don't get me wrong, I totally get/agree with the complaints about VLR's questions not all being answered really. But I sorta expected that going in, because I thought that was more or less the expectation norm on that kinda thing?
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Jul 24, 2016 02:42
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I actually forgot everything Uchikoshi said would be in the game by the time I played it so lol. v v
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Jul 24, 2016 02:43
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Waffleman_ posted:I actually forgot everything Uchikoshi said would be in the game by the time I played it so lol. v Same. I was definitely expecting Blick Winkel and Alice/Clover to make an appearance though, since they were explicitly mentioned during the ending and post-game scene. Is the leaked script for ZE3 out there somewhere? Kinda want to read it now.
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Jul 24, 2016 02:57
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i wish maybe uchikoshi will do it if somebody asks him nicely though
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Jul 24, 2016 03:21
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Hot take: He never intended to answer any of those questions and him saying "wait for the sequal!" was him covering up his poo poo writing in VLR.
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Jul 24, 2016 14:29
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Paul Zuvella posted:Hot take: You've been investing a lot of time into your criticism of this game series
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Jul 24, 2016 15:33
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Other than the fourth question (which is basically answered in ZTD - Delta has an alien fax machine to send copies or "clones" of his brother to the future) those are all questions that don't actually matter at all. Uchikoshi probably hadn't decided whether to put those characters in ZTD yet so he gave a vague answer that left his options open.
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Jul 24, 2016 15:37
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13/f/cali posted:My interpretation of the timeline: Thanks for this, that actually made me laugh.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Other than the fourth question (which is basically answered in ZTD - Delta has an alien fax machine to send copies or "clones" of his brother to the future) those are all questions that don't actually matter at all. Uchikoshi probably hadn't decided whether to put those characters in ZTD yet so he gave a vague answer that left his options open. Yeah as much as I really want to see more of Snake, that's more for fanservice than for actual plot relevance. But it would've been nice to have a little bit more detail on Aoi at least.
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Jul 24, 2016 21:30
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I choose to believe that Delta's motivation for everything was just to kill people in sadistic ways and get away with it. Sure, there was the whole "make sure you get born" thing but that was just window dressing. Have you ever fantasizing about killing someone? Delta figured out that he could get away with it by killing off shifters. In the final ending he gets to read the shifters' minds and see all the horrific poo poo he did to them, all without actually being culpable for it because it didn't happen in this timeline. There was no threat to 8 billion people from fanatics either. That was all a lie. He released Radical-6 in one of the doomed timelines just so he'd get to read Sigma's mind in the final ending and get to know what it'd be like to murder billions of people.
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Jul 24, 2016 21:41
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The Delta reveal was poo poo for a multitude of reasons that would have been easily avoided if there was any indication that Delta was aware of ? and trying to fool them in particular. In fact, that's how I choose to read it - that's why he tells Akane about the FtS meeting, to inform her of this greater, possibly hostile force. As it stands there's literally no reason to conceal Delta from the player at all other than a really cheap gotcha moment, and all of the other games' twists have had way more significance than "oh yeah he was just off camera the whole time, duh". Delta's existence was NEVER a twist for the actual characters that the player depends on for the narrative, so just omitting him for absolutely no reason is lazy poo poo-sucking nonsense. The other thing that I feel like I disagree with a ton of people on is Zero's "complex motives". We know that to ensure his birth, two of the other many timelines are necessary for Sigma's two attempts through the Decision Game leading to the Silver Lining ending. Both endings are bleak. But....those endings are the only ones that are required to exist out of all the horrific paths, and Delta actually implies that the bad timelines were simulations in the quantum computer. So why the rest of the paths? I kind of think that it's the opposite of everyone else's interpretation: he's trying to get Akane specifically to quit being so hesitant to use her powers when necessary, since her BttF theory doesn't actually play out as reality for the SHIFTers in the game. They never explicitly acknowledge it, but the memories of the SHIFTer aren't lost as Akane suspects but are assimilated. If you tie it in with the idea above about Delta being paranoid about ? it can be seen as him training her to match the possible threat and would help explain why in the VLR ending she goes to complete the AB project even after clearly meeting with Delta and the cult. I don't know, it seemed like there should have been something deeper to it than just "haha there was a secret extra character and we used deceptive camera angles that were indistinguishable from our poor 3D animation budget-saving techniques". Other random poo poo that bugs me: -What the gently caress is with Delta and Phi ending up in 1904? They set it for shortly before 2008, the transporter doesn't gently caress up this badly for anyone else the bunches of times its used, and Dr. Of All the Science Sigma Klim had ten months to study it again before firing it off. -Sigma and Phi are mostly useless during the entire thing despite being the ones that have spent literally decades preparing for this. -Related to the above, it was jarring to see Junpei and Akane in the game at all. Junpei I can actually accept on some level, but Akane being there completely defeats the purpose of sending Sigma and Phi, the specially-awakened SHIFTers, when Akane is there herself and spends the entire game SHIFTing around while Sigma crosses his arms and looks dour.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:55
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Ryoshi posted:
These things are probably the things that bug me the most with the game, despite dropping the things like ? and Kyle. It felt like the whole point of VLR was that you were training up Sigma and Phi to go on this ultra important mission, but it ended up feeling like they didn't do very much at all.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:11
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All of this is pure conjecture I made while playing: - I think the point with VLR Akane is that she knows what happened in D-Com but Sigma don't. Akane said that Sigma and Phi are important but never said that their only purpose was to avoid this bad future. I'm pretty sure she only sends them to make sure the Radical-6 future still exists alongside creating a new timeline. Also, it's pretty much obvious that Akane is the brain of the whole operation while Sigma is just a tool she needs; Sigma is intelligent but he's also a grandpa who acted exactly like Akane wanted for a long time so it makes sense that he can't do - Delta knows about this plan since he could easily read old Sigma and Phi minds; Akane and Junpei want to stop Free the Soul/Brother but since they don't come from the future and don't have that knowledge they're not that much of a threat. This is the whole reason why he kept Team D separated from Akane and why they are put in situations in which none of them could interfere with his plan, outside of the big blue button because "gently caress you mom, dad and sister from the future".
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Jul 25, 2016 16:31
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Ventana posted:These things are probably the things that bug me the most with the game, despite dropping the things like ? and Kyle. It felt like the whole point of VLR was that you were training up Sigma and Phi to go on this ultra important mission, but it ended up feeling like they didn't do very much at all. Sigma was important because he had to bang Diana. Phi was there to..... be incinerated?
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Jul 25, 2016 18:33
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Like who the gently caress is Delta writing "LETS INHIBIT THE VIRUS" for? The truth isn't invisible to the characters!! They see him right there! It's only invisible to the player! game so dumb grumble grumble
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Jul 25, 2016 18:35
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Lareine posted:Sigma was important because he had to bang Diana. Phi was there to..... be incinerated? Yeah she had to be there and die so Akane could leave the shelter and lock the door, and Sig and Di would get all sappy and sad about her and name the new baby Phi (influencing Delta's name as well) - or be there and LIVE so she carries out Delta's Radical-6 plan. That part actually sorta makes sense.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:38
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Was there any real reason Delta needed to be Diana and Sigma's kid outside adding an extra wrinkle to the Phi twist? I liked the idea of the bad guy being their son but it didn't seem to matter much at all aside from giving a flimsy reason for him having a flimsy power.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:52
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It feels like it was so you could have a "*gasp* but he's so OLD!!" moment but I don't recall there being a way to acknowledge his existence at all before the twins ending other than the Perceptive End tease, and they used that "is secretly old" thing as a twist last game, so...yeah.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:56
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Lareine posted:Sigma was important because he had to bang Diana. Phi was there to..... be incinerated? Sigma was important and had to be there, yeah, but banging Diana didn't involve any of the cool shifting powers/training that was supposedly the point of VLR. Or did it? I don't remember Sigma shifting being too relevant to the twin's ending scenario, only to the final ending.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:08
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Ventana posted:Sigma was important and had to be there, yeah, but banging Diana didn't involve any of the cool shifting powers/training that was supposedly the point of VLR. Or did it? I don't remember Sigma shifting being too relevant to the twin's ending scenario, only to the final ending. Genetic switches
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Jul 25, 2016 19:11
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VLR needing to happen to train Sigma is completely trivialized by the fact that Junpei, Akane, and Carlos all being able to jump around like it barely batters.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:14
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Maybe it's needed to help get more shifters in one place?
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Jul 25, 2016 19:33
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It's been a loooong time since I played VLR, but weren't Sigma and Phi basically able to shift at will, regardless of their lives being in danger?
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Jul 25, 2016 19:40
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Ometeotl posted:It's been a loooong time since I played VLR, but weren't Sigma and Phi basically able to shift at will, regardless of their lives being in danger? Let me tell you about the minds slingshot....
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Jul 25, 2016 19:42
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In VLR everyone's life is in danger the whole time due to the rad-6 and antimatter bombs.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:54
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Paul Zuvella posted:VLR needing to happen to train Sigma is completely trivialized by the fact that Junpei, Akane, and Carlos all being able to jump around like it barely batters. It's prolly cause Sigma and Akane skimped on the acid showers. Much more incentive to learn shifting when your timelines are extra gruesome.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:58
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vlr just exists so Sigma can bang his old waifu god, team d sucks.
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Jul 25, 2016 21:19
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I liked D-Team  That said, I wish they had done more to make Sigma and Phi maybe not completely useless since they were 2/3 people there with any idea of what the stakes really were. It felt like C-Team's SHIFTing shenanigans should have been D-Team's storyline. Diana is great and a candidate for maybe the most tragic or sympathetic character in this series though.
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Jul 26, 2016 00:21
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Extra Tasty posted:I liked D-Team I thought they were trying to complicate her a bit with ALIEN HAND SYNDROME... But nah, it was just Delta mindhacking her into murdering him because reasons?
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Jul 26, 2016 01:12
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His motives are....complex. I don't mind Delta, but I love making fun of that line.
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Jul 26, 2016 03:32
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zero escape 4 will explain everything sadly it will just be a text document on uchikoshi's blog
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Jul 26, 2016 04:16
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Jul 26, 2016 04:28
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