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AndyElusive posted:LOL @ the image of Han, Lando, Chewie, Rey, Dash or Leebo popping Glitterstims. lol if you think han wasnt tripping balls during Force Awakens.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:15
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kingcom posted:lol if you think han wasnt tripping balls during Force Awakens. Not to mention Dash has got to be high as a kite to even consider wearing those inflatable shoulder-pads!  (Not sure about Leebo, though...I guess whatever's good enough for an IG88 is good enough for him/it?)
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Jul 28, 2016 03:20
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The shoulder pads are filled with Glitterstim so that whenever he sustains blunt force trauma he inhales a nurturing hit of spice. Head protection not necessary.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:29
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Maybe HotR has a new Engine Upgrade that's Rebel only and costs 3 pts 
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Jul 28, 2016 03:33
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Give Dash a Hot poo poo Blaster. Autocorrect made the HSB name more accurate.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:33
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alg posted:Maybe HotR has a new Engine Upgrade that's Rebel only and costs 3 pts There is that new SLAM upgrade. Dash with SLAM can evade engagements even more effectively than EU, the game will just take interminably longer. I'm actually disappointed that SLAM and Advanced SLAM can't happen though.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:34
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alg posted:Maybe HotR has a new Engine Upgrade that's Rebel only and costs 3 pts You can always substitute in Vectored Thrusters for the 1300. Depends on whether or not you think Barrel Rolling is as useful as Boosting. To be honest, I find Barrel Rolling is more useful if you have some way to do it before you move, but less so after moving. Unfortunately there are no Advanced Sensors for either YT.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:35
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Strobe posted:There is that new SLAM upgrade. Dash with SLAM can evade engagements even more effectively than EU, the game will just take interminably longer. I'm actually disappointed that SLAM and Advanced SLAM can't happen though. Sure it can. The SLAM card is a new Illicit (features a YV-666 in the card art) and you can equip an additional mod, being Advanced SLAM at 2 points.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:36
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Endman posted:You can always substitute in Vectored Thrusters for the 1300. Depends on whether or not you think Barrel Rolling is as useful as Boosting. Vectored Thrusters is small base only.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:40
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Kai Tave posted:Vectored Thrusters is small base only. Welp, never mind then. Honestly, Engine Upgrade probably should have been too.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:42
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Endman posted:Sure it can. The SLAM card is a new Illicit (features a YV-666 in the card art) and you can equip an additional mod, being Advanced SLAM at 2 points.  I did not know about this! Gotta start thinking about different uses for this - I might actually have to fish out that Advanced SLAM card again...
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Jul 28, 2016 03:44
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A slight correction: the card has a YT-2400 on it, but the Illicit icon is clearly visible. I don't know where I got the YV-666 from. Maybe I'm just going crazy. Unfortunately it's probably a decent suggestion to make that the bottom text on the card says "After you perform a (SLAM icon) action, discard this card." So Advanced SLAM might not be worth it for a single use.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:46
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It could also be a stress, instead of discard. If it's not single use, Advanced SLAM could make the Outrider really interesting with double maneuvers and barrel rolls for what's basically a MEGABOOST that has more maneuvering options but keeps you from attacking. If you're going to commit hardcore to not getting shot and only shooting when you're not in danger, that's how to do it.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:50
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Strobe how do you feel about replacing Luke in XXX with VI Poe? You lose the bid and can be denied Regen easier but the ship is better.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:53
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Strobe how do you feel about replacing Luke in XXX with VI Poe? You lose the bid and can be denied Regen easier but the ship is better. gently caress no. Luke works even after being blocked or being stressed, or loses a token somehow. Poe is dead if any one of those things happens. The only change I'll be making to XXX this wave is to replace Predator/R2 on Wedge with Juke/R3.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:55
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Major Isoor posted:Don't need to tell me twice! Hey Spiggy, are you around? I haven't seen any of your posts in ages - just let me know if/when you're free for a round on TTS I think you got me flipped up with siggy for the week two game, but if you want to practice or do our game way early I'm sometimes idling in group chat as jazz isnt dead.
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Jul 28, 2016 04:45
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Spiggy posted:I think you got me flipped up with siggy for the week two game, but if you want to practice or do our game way early I'm sometimes idling in group chat as jazz isnt dead. Oh yeah, I think you might be right on that count!  But I haven't played at all lately, so I might just take you up on that, if you happen to be online still, by the time I get home
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Jul 28, 2016 05:00
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Major Isoor posted:Not to mention Dash has got to be high as a kite to even consider wearing those inflatable shoulder-pads! How do you think he avoids caring about asteroids so easily. Those shoulder pads keep him safe
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Jul 28, 2016 05:03
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Kai Tave posted:There are people that can make any weird thing work, on the whole though I believe I'd have a much easier time against the Superdashes and Falcons of the world if they all voluntarily agreed to give up Engine Upgrades for Wookiee Lent. There's a weird and prevalent opinion in x-wing that I've never really seen in other games that 'X is just savant' and discount the list in preference for the player, but only when it suit's their world-view of what is good in x-wing. Like a few pages ago when people were saying Rebels were bad despite the fact they had won the last 3 worlds, putting it down to a single savant player. I've played a lot of competitive games over the years and I've no idea why this kind of opinion is so common in x-wing.
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Jul 28, 2016 09:29
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I think it mainly has to do with the nature of the maneuvering game plus the lack of premeasuring arcs/ranges/etc. There absolutely is an element of practiced skill at spatial awareness and reading intentions in the game, that isn't necessarily as much of a factor in other minis games. How big of an impact it actually has game to game is entirely open to debate and really comes down to who's playing and with what to have a meaningful answer.
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Jul 28, 2016 09:34
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Last year around this time, Rebs were still in a good place, meta-wise. Fat Han was still solid and Poe was good, and Rebels could still place high. Then Wave 8 came about, and created the issue for the rebels that you either had to construct lists viable against Imp Aces, or viable against Jumpies: Rebels don't, unfortunately, have tools to deal with both lists. So saying that currently Rebels are viable because of the results of the past 3 years is not accurate, since the results from regionals/nationals/the open has shown that Rebels, since the advent of Wave 8, have been underperforming. I'd be interested to see if Paul can pull it off again with Rebels this year, but last year (or any of the other times he won), no one was surprised that someone could win with Rebs, because they were in a much better place meta-wise.
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Jul 28, 2016 09:37
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Tekopo posted:Last year around this time, Rebs were still in a good place, meta-wise. Fat Han was still solid and Poe was good, and Rebels could still place high. It wasn't about right now, it was suggested that Rebels have been bad for the last 3 years and Paul Heaver won despite of this. But it's not just about the worlds, people discount things all the time putting it down to individual player skill winning despite being a bad list. It's like saying Novak Djokovic could win major's playing Left-Handed, is the gulf in skill really that great between players at major tournaments.
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Jul 28, 2016 09:48
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Aramoro posted:There's a weird and prevalent opinion in x-wing that I've never really seen in other games that 'X is just savant' and discount the list in preference for the player, but only when it suit's their world-view of what is good in x-wing. At the levels of play I'm engaging at, which are not world championship tier, the lists populating the top of tournaments and events have overwhelmingly been some variation of Palp aces, Jumpmasters, or Imperial Crack swarms. I could frankly not give half a leftover gently caress about the World Championships because my chance of engaging in that level of X-Wing play is roughly the same as being struck by lightning while holding a winning Powerball ticket. But hey, if we're going to look at high level tournament play to see where the meta's at right now, what was the deal with that X-Wing Open series they had? Let's take a look and see how that shook out. Hoth: Winner, triple Jumpmasters Jakku: Winner, Soontir, Inquisitor, Palpshuttle Endor: Winner, Omega Leader, Inquisitor, Wampa, Palpshuttle Yavin: Winner, Howlrunner + 6 assorted TIEs and Crack Shots Tattooine: Winner, Dengar + Tel Trevura Naboo: Winner, Whisper + Oicunn Kashyyyk: Winner, triple Jumpmasters in a final match where both players were in fact playing triple Jumpmasters so that's cool Corsucant Invitational: Winner, Dengar + Guri in a tournament format where Starvipers were mandatory for Scum. His opponent? Also Scum, running Palob, Guri, and Manaroo. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm it's almost as though there's something in common here but I can't quite put my finger on it, must just be me projecting my worldview onto things to suit me like usual. At this point "Paul Heaver is actually just really fuckin good at X-Wing and can win with whatever he feels like" might actually be the plausible answer because unless someone has some more compelling data they'd like to bring to the table which shows that actually Rebels are doing just as well in the current competitive scene and this is all just a product of our biases coloring our perceptions I think I'm actually going to stick with saying that right now Rebels as a faction don't seem to be in an incredibly generous spot. Also if you have a legit argument as to why it might be worth giving up one of the most commonly used upgrades on Falcons and Outriders both for an Illicit Upgrade I am all ears, because clearly I'm not World Championship tier but I can't recall too many instances where I've heard a Superdash or Falcon player remark "Yeah this is good, but you know what would be better? Trading in the ability to boost on a large-based ship for a 1/game Inertial Dampers, that's the ticket." edit; whoops, I actually forgot that there was one more Open series tournament at ComicCon Germany. Lothal: Winner, triple Jumpmasters edit 2; and Tekopo has an extremely valid point, Wave 8 has been the one which seems to have precipitated the shift in the meta, and while meta shifts are natural and expected in a competitive game where new stuff is being added all the time, and I certainly do not begrudge Scum players their time in the sun, Wave 9 does not so far seem to be providing anything that looks poised to shake this current meta up in any significant way. Maybe there's something super amazing hiding in Heroes of the Resistance, but the ARC doesn't look like anything that Rebels in this current environment want or need so I'm skeptical. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 09:49
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Kai Tave posted:At the levels of play I'm engaging at, which are not world championship tier, the lists populating the top of tournaments and events have overwhelmingly been some variation of Palp aces, Jumpmasters, or Imperial Crack swarms. I could frankly not give half a leftover gently caress about the World Championships because my chance of engaging in that level of X-Wing play is roughly the same as being struck by lightning while holding a winning Powerball ticket. I'm not doubting that Imperial and Scum have some really strong meta lists just now, what I'm doubting is that Rebel's are so bad that any time they do win we can discount it and put it down to individual player skill. Discounting Corsucant that's 7 major's won by 6 different lists which is not actually too bad. I mean it's incorrect to even say that Imperial's or Scum are better than every else just one, it's 1 or 2 specific list that's better and a lot of good players have jumped on it to take advantage of the marginal advantage that it offers. The person winning with Whisper + Oicunn is just an remarkable at this stage as the person winning the Outer Rim one with 4 Rookies and a Bandit Squadron Pilot. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 10:02
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Aramoro posted:It wasn't about right now, it was suggested that Rebels have been bad for the last 3 years and Paul Heaver won despite of this. I just jumped on this because, from your sentence, you made it sound like Rebels were not bad now because they had won the last 3 years, which I didn't feel was correct. I do partially agree that X-Wing is a game, however, where talent can make a much bigger difference than for other games. You can't math out X-Wing like you can in other miniature games and the skill element is much higher, which means that, for certain lists, you really do need someone that either has natural skill with the list or has flown it for so long that he knows the list inside out. The best example, for me, is swarm lists. Andrew Pattison, the winner of the Yavin Open, has been playing swarm lists for quite a long time, and he managed to win the Yavin Open with a list which is, quite frankly, mentally exhausting. Co-ordinating the movements of 7 ships is not easy, and although anyone can fly a swarm, being able to fly it well is something completely different. I was mentally struggling with a 5 ship swarm in my last tournament, and I can't honestly think how I would be able to play 12 games (Yavin Open + Second Day + Cutoff) over a period of two days flying a 7 ship swarm.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:08
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Aramoro posted:I'm not doubting that Imperial and Scum have some really strong meta lists just now, what I'm doubting is that Rebel's are so bad that any time they do win we can discount it and put it down to individual player skill. My point re: this dude and his Anti-Pursuit Lasers Outrider is that outliers always exist. So far nobody has really put forth a compelling argument that trading out EU for an Illicit upgrade on two ships that benefit hugely from EU is a good deal. Do you have one? Do you really think that Inertial Dampers or Glitterstim is going to be the key to the next generation of Outrider build? I'd love to hear it. There's this upcoming Illicit that maybe gives you SLAM but I will be very surprised if it doesn't come with some extremely stringent drawbacks to it. I won a local tournament using XXY against dual Jumpmasters + Mist Hunter, I've beaten Palp aces players and triple U-boats, and as pleased as I am with my performance I am in no way going to authoritatively state that XXY is in the same place meta-wise as those lists simply because I happened to win some games.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:11
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Tekopo posted:I just jumped on this because, from your sentence, you made it sound like Rebels were not bad now because they had won the last 3 years, which I didn't feel was correct. Rebel's haven't had much recently and with the nature of power creep they were always going to be at a bit of a disadvantage. But they're still in the mix in the tourney scene, it's not as if they're so bad they're not worth playing now. Some top 8's Vancouver X-Wing Regional Championship 2016 (71 Players) - 3 Rebel, 2 Scum, 3 Imperial. Outer Rim Appalachain Open (30 Players) - 2 Rebel, 2 Scum, 3 Imperial (1 unknown) Regio Tricity (65 Players) - 2 Rebel, 1 Scum, 5 Imperial That's the last 3 big ones I saw, so people are winning at major tourney level with Rebels.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:18
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Kai Tave posted:My point re: this dude and his Anti-Pursuit Lasers Outrider is that outliers always exist. So far nobody has really put forth a compelling argument that trading out EU for an Illicit upgrade on two ships that benefit hugely from EU is a good deal. Do you have one? Do you really think that Inertial Dampers or Glitterstim is going to be the key to the next generation of Outrider build? I'd love to hear it. There's this upcoming Illicit that maybe gives you SLAM but I will be very surprised if it doesn't come with some extremely stringent drawbacks to it. Not at all I think the time for Anti-Pursuit Lasers Outrider's is probably over, but at the same time what he did he did for a reason. He didn't do it to deliberately handicap himself and it's more interesting and useful to work out why it worked for him that to just consider the list an outlier and ignore it. It could be he was just head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of skill and won despite a non-optimal list, but is that really likely at a major level.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:25
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I'm not saying that there isn't the remotest chance that rebels can't push through to a cutoff, but I've seen the results from very large tournaments, and the lack of a viable list that deals with both the current meta Imp/Scum lists does mean that Rebels are disadvantaged. This was shown to me clearly in the Opens: since the chance to both face Jumpies and Imp aces is much higher, the number of Rebel lists in the cut-off decreased dramatically when compared to smaller tournaments. Naboo Open had 0 rebel lists in the top 8 cutoff. Yavin Open (the one I went to), had 0 rebel lists in the top 8 cutoff. Within the top 32, there were 4 rebel lists, 3 Dash/Ghost lists and one Corran Horn list. This is why I see problems with rebels, because the numbers above aren't okay. In a 414 person tournament (the biggest ever), only 4 rebels (and there were a large portion of people flying rebels) make the top 32? That, to me, shows issues. EDIT: Hoth had 1 Rebel list Ghost/Poe/Z in top 8 Kashyyk had 1 Rebel list Corran/Wes/Biggs in top 8 Jakku I couldn't find the top 8 but top 4 had 0 Rebel lists Tekopo fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 10:36
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Aramoro posted:Not at all I think the time for Anti-Pursuit Lasers Outrider's is probably over, but at the same time what he did he did for a reason. He didn't do it to deliberately handicap himself and it's more interesting and useful to work out why it worked for him that to just consider the list an outlier and ignore it. It could be he was just head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of skill and won despite a non-optimal list, but is that really likely at a major level. That Outrider was more of a defensive loadout that used R2d2 and lone wolf and I think that had more to do with the list's viability than APLs. Probably the reason to go with 2 B-wings over Corran was that the Bs would be more resilient if opponents did not tackle Dash, who was made a less appealing target with lone wolf and regen.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:41
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Tekopo posted:This is why I see problems with rebels, because the numbers above aren't okay. In a 414 person tournament (the biggest ever), only 4 rebels (and there were a large portion of people flying rebels) make the top 32? That, to me, shows issues. I think perhaps ironically large tournies will skew more heavily than smaller ones because there's more to win, so any edge is worth taking. The best players will choose the absolute best list they can based on the meta they think they will face. In this case it makes 2 lists look incredibly dominant because everyone made the same meta call, with good reason. This doesn't mean that Rebels are miles behind everyone else, just enough that they're a poor meta choice in the current environment. I just want to say again I'm not saying Rebels are on the same level as Imperial or Scum just now, I just don't think they're that far behind. Banning Palp and removing the EPT from Contracted Scouts would make the world of difference.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:52
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Aramoro posted:I think perhaps ironically large tournies will skew more heavily than smaller ones because there's more to win, so any edge is worth taking. The best players will choose the absolute best list they can based on the meta they think they will face. In this case it makes 2 lists look incredibly dominant because everyone made the same meta call, with good reason. This doesn't mean that Rebels are miles behind everyone else, just enough that they're a poor meta choice in the current environment. I do agree that with some changes (no more Palp/no EPT on Scouts), Rebels could pull back, but as it stands they are way below the meta and large tourney results/winners show that. EDIT: And using the argument that 'rebels are worth flying right now' -> 'of course the best players don't want to fly Rebels, they want every possible advantage!' really doesn't sit right for me. In the end we just keep moving goal posts in terms of what the power level of rebel lists should be, or have a subjective argument of what 'bad' means in relation to how far below the meta curve rebel lists are, which isn't, to be honest, a very compelling conversation to have. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 11:12
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There was a tournament in Spain that was won by double firesprays and the usual suspects were out on the FFG forums crowing about how this shows that everything his viable. I then read the interview with him and he talked about triple jumpmasters and his strategy was literally "well, I hope I don't play them" and he didn't see them so he won. I played rebels a lot this year and I compare the ghost to the dice effects available to the other factions and it's night and day. Ghosts are cool ships(don't loving use the title/etc though) but they don't compare to the shenanigans available in other factions.
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Jul 28, 2016 11:26
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Panzeh posted:There was a tournament in Spain that was won by double firesprays and the usual suspects were out on the FFG forums crowing about how this shows that everything his viable. I then read the interview with him and he talked about triple jumpmasters and his strategy was literally "well, I hope I don't play them" and he didn't see them so he won. I think that's a legit meta call though, relies on luck but if you think there's going to be more PalpAces and fewer Jump Masters then it's a good call. There's no de facto 'best list' yet so you're always going to hope you don't face certain lists, just how much of a risk you take is personal preference. quote:EDIT: And using the argument that 'rebels are worth flying right now' -> 'of course the best players don't want to fly Rebels, they want every possible advantage!' really doesn't sit right for me. In the end we just keep moving goal posts in terms of what the power level of rebel lists should be, or have a subjective argument of what 'bad' means in relation to how far below the meta curve rebel lists are, which isn't, to be honest, a very compelling conversation to have. I don't think it's as much don't fly Rebels it's choosing lists no matter which faction that can beat the 2 dominant lists which exist. Like the guy who won flying swarm clearly didn't think that the 2 dominant lists were going to be a massive issue for him, and they weren't. I think with the latest releases we're going to see a lot more list diversity which may see some more Rebel lists make a come back.
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Jul 28, 2016 11:57
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One of the problems is that there's a lot of groupthink net listing that goes on at higher levels, with plenty of middle of the pack being copypastes. This tends to concentrate the types of lists people bring, which further solidifies their representation in top cuts and the hype just feeds itself. This plays directly into the hands of people who like to list build from scratch, who can generally build for and practice against the majority of lists, so that in a tournament setting you're at a huge advantage with a novel list the other guy has never played against, while you've trained for his.
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Jul 28, 2016 12:11
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There's an argument to be made that actually swarms are dominant over jumpies and have the tools to deal with imp aces, but the reason that they aren't considered top meta is because of how intensive they are in terms of training/skill and how exhausting it is to fly them at a tourney level. And yes, it's what people have been saying. Currently in order to make a tourney viable list you need tools that deal with the two dominant list and rebels don't have that. The fact that the other two factions also don't have lists (apart from swarms, debatably) that fight both of those lists doesn't detract from that, and doesn't nullify the argument that rebels are below the curve at the moment.
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Jul 28, 2016 12:12
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I'm of the opinion that the best Rebel list right now is the A-Wing Crack Shot swarm. Only problem with that is that it's just a more defensive version of the Imperial Crack Shot swarm, which has additional firepower (more ships and Howlrunner).
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Jul 28, 2016 13:28
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The APL Dash works and I've run it before. Basically, reasoning goes like this (remember this is from before Kanan or Palp existed!). PtL Dash was the standard. Maneuverable and capable of focus + TL with an HLC. However, the greens on a 2400 dial aren't great, and even with boost and barrel roll, he tended to get cornered. The initial movement was predictable and he could blocked. In addition, ships like Soontir or Vader could donut hole him. It was also dangerous to get near a swarm, as the 2400 depends on green dice and avoiding arcs over HP (like the 1300 did). Okay, so, still a strong ship, but a couple exploitable weaknesses. Swarms are more manageable since making an unexpected move could shake them. Not so easy with Soontir, though. He's gonna catch you. But if you can take 1 round of shooting, now he's right on top of you, stressed, and very close. He can't K-turn. So you do a 1 hard turn. Either he goes 3-4 fast, past you, leaving neither of you with shots, (probably) or he bumps and takes damage if he turns or banks. Next turn, you should be able to get a shot. Trying to break through his defense sucked, but with HLC it was possible if you didn't have another ship. I ran Dash with Lone Wolf on this build, the rerolls greatly helped on defense, and you can't boost anyway so PtL wasn't as good. Having the full dial to use was amazing. Vader and Whisper were scarier to me playing Dash, as they could K-turn on you and avoid bumps more readily. Both were easier to just kill however (autothrusters!), so it evened out mostly. Tl:dr; Lone Wolf Dash is good and fun, and I could totally see using APL + Feedback as a Palp Aces counter. Hard part is honestly finding a wingman for him.
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Jul 28, 2016 14:06
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Kai Tave posted:At this point "Paul Heaver is actually just really fuckin good at X-Wing and can win with whatever he feels like" might actually be the plausible answer
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Jul 28, 2016 14:27
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SCUM ACES 999 Y-Wing: · Kavil (24) Veteran Instincts (1) Bomb Loadout (0) Autoblaster Turret (2) Vectored Thrusters (2) Unhinged Astromech (1) Thermal Detonators (3) Protectorate Starfighter: · Fenn Rau (28) Push The Limit (3) Autothrusters (2) Concord Dawn Protector (1) Protectorate Starfighter: · Old Teroch (26) Veteran Instincts (1) Autothrusters (2) Concord Dawn Protector (1) -- TOTAL ------- 97/100p. -- I've run a similar Kavil before, long ago, but before wave 8. Had a hard time fitting in enough hard hitting stuff to go with. Also had to use Engine Upgrade and not Vectored. I think the barrel roll will combo with the autoblaster turret much better, and it's cheaper so I can grab the bomb.
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Jul 28, 2016 14:32
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