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Nitrousoxide posted:But they have that already through the Spanish parliament... You misunderstand the concept of self-determination.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:28
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YF-23 posted:You misunderstand the concept of self-determination. Why don't you explain what you mean.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:31
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Nitrousoxide posted:Why don't you explain what you mean. You could have a vote in the Spanish parliament on which Catalan MPs vote for or against and the end result is the opposite outcome, with the consequences of that vote affecting Catalonia as well. That is directly against self-determination. But even that is just an example; by the principle of self-determination, if the Catalan people want Catalonia to become an independent country, they have the right to make that happen.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:37
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Nitrousoxide posted:Why don't you explain what you mean.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:41
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YF-23 posted:You could have a vote in the Spanish parliament on which Catalan MPs vote for or against and the end result is the opposite outcome, with the consequences of that vote affecting Catalonia as well. That is directly against self-determination. But even that is just an example; by the principle of self-determination, if the Catalan people want Catalonia to become an independent country, they have the right to make that happen. That's true of any non ruling party though. Should a state get split in half every election?
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Jul 28, 2016 17:41
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Nitrousoxide posted:This is like 99% of the reasoning I've seen for them. Hey thread, this is one of those koolaid-drinking Spaniards I was telling you about! If that's the reasoning you've seen then you have only been talking to Madrid right-wingers. You could, you know, go back to the old thread where I explained in detail, to you (I think) why the Catalans are right when they say Madrid treats them like poo poo. One instance: it's not that the money Madrid takes from them goes to the poor for medicine. That's ridiculous. It goes to build 15 highways around Most of them sitting unused and broke, while Barcelona has 2.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:42
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Nitrousoxide posted:That's true of any non ruling party though. Should a state get split in half every election? You are committing reductio ad absurdum; losing an election is not the same as voting for independence, and other than tiny fringes supporters of losing parties in elections would rather be the opposition in their country rather than declare independence.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:45
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A Buttery Pastry posted:National self-determination means being able to declare your own sovereign (nation) state, it doesn't have anything to do with having a democratic say in the state you currently live under. Supposing that were a good thing to have and that the ability to declare Independence should exist apart from there being any disenfranchisement. Why shouldn't a single household be able to declare themselves their own independent microstate? Or a single village, it a town?
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Jul 28, 2016 17:46
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Dawncloack posted:Hey thread, this is one of those koolaid-drinking Spaniards I was telling you about! I'm not Spanish. I just want to see if there's a good reason for Catalonian independence.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:48
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Nitrousoxide posted:Supposing that were a good thing to have and that the ability to declare Independence should exist apart from there being any disenfranchisement. It's like I am listeing to Spanish State TV. You are deflecting.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:48
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Nitrousoxide posted:I'm not Spanish. I just want to see if there's a good reason for Catalonian independence. It used to be, and still is the case, that schools in Catalonia choose the proportion of Spanish and Catalan (above a mandated minimum) depending on the composition of the eighborhood they are in. There are Spanish-only 'hoods there, they do minimum Catalan, etc.etc. Then the central government comes in and says "No, if a single family asks for it, the school has to be maximum Spanish" and the supreme court in Madrid says "drat right!". If nothing else THAT is a fantastic argument. But that, the conomic plundering (take more from Catalonia so that Madrid politicians can embezzle more), the poo poo they take from politicians that I have already explained and the main reason, simply because *that's what they want* are all good reasons.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:51
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Dawncloack posted:It's like I am listeing to Spanish State TV. No, explain why a household or town doesn't have the right to succeed but an arbitrarily larger region does.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:54
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Dawncloack posted:It used to be, and still is the case, that schools in Catalonia choose the proportion of Spanish and Catalan (above a mandated minimum) depending on the composition of the eighborhood they are in. There are Spanish-only 'hoods there, they do minimum Catalan, etc.etc. Well this is a reason at least. You disagree with the policies enacted by the state. Now, why should that be solved with independence as opposed to working within the system? Lots of people are unhappy with the policies enacted by nearly any government. Greens are often upset with the lack of movement on climate initiates or polices which accelerate global warming. Why shouldn't they get to succeed if they are unhappy with government policy?
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Jul 28, 2016 17:58
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I wish they went full military intervention honestly (it's not gonna happen unless spain gets outta europe though) both sides get so many votes by stroking their own nationalist dick they ain't gonna stop until the climax so until it happens reading spanish or catalan political news is pretty boring, it's just been going in circles since the "estatut" happened.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:11
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Nitrousoxide posted:Well this is a reason at least. You disagree with the policies enacted by the state.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:17
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Nitrousoxide posted:No, explain why a household or town doesn't have the right to succeed but an arbitrarily larger region does. Why don't they? Let them I say. Also I will not argue your points, you do that, eh? Nitrousoxide posted:Now, why should that be solved with independence as opposed to working within the system? Also, before that proof was published that the national police has a political wing that fakes reports on Catalan and left wing leaders and tries to pressure the judiciary. I can understand why all the calls to "work within the system" sounds extremely hollow to the Catalans, considering that those cases haven't provoked even a simple resignation, much less been prosecuted.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:29
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Dawncloack posted:Why don't they? Let them I say. Also I will not argue your points, you do that, eh? The PP guys should just actually start doing that kind of shady stuff publicly since it will give them more votes in most regions of spain and they don't win anything in catalonia anyway so its no loss (in fact after this stunt and lots of similar stuff they improved their results in all regions including catalonia (albeit not by much) these last elections so lol)
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Jul 28, 2016 19:25
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Dawncloack posted:Why don't they? Let them I say. Also I will not argue your points, you do that, eh? You're consistent at least. Dawncloack posted:Recently a recorded conversation between the Spanish minister of the Interior and the head of Catalan antifraud agency was published. They spoke openly about drumming up fake scandals on the Catalan leaders using Spanish State resources. This is a good reason that would contribute towards succession being justified.
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Jul 28, 2016 19:53
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Nitrousoxide posted:Now, why should that be solved with independence as opposed to working within the system? The core essence of independence and self-determination is the idea that a consolidated people-group within a geographic area is free to express their cultural and economic identify to their satisfaction. If you look at most of the independence movements of the past fifty years, excluding colonial independence wars, they generally share the same common trait: a consolidated culture group that is part of a larger nation. Some movements are more for nostalgia's sake (Brittany, Venetia, Northern League, Corsica), and some are for cultural and economic reasons (Scotland, Catalonia, Navarra, Quebec). In the US, we don't have a strong geographic concentration of people-groups that feel disenfranchised or not respected (for the most part; you might have racial, economic, etc tensions, but they are not geographically bound). So for Spain and Catalonia, you have a culturally distinct people-group (Catalans) inside a larger state (Spain) that feels their cultural identify and economic means are being threatened and undermined by another people-group (Spaniards). While you can debate the logical absurdity of individuals seceding from a nation, you'll have a hard time doing the logical contortions to exclude the philosophical argument that for the Catalans, Madrid has lost the consent of the governed. At some point, a people-group will lose patience with a system that has no consequences for abusing said people-group (as it appears to be so here). Would you honestly argue that black South Africans should have tried to work within the apartheid system? Should the 13 colonies just sucked it up and be taken for a ride as Britain's piggy bank? A government must always aim to keep it's people satisfied, or the people will make a government that will satisfy them. If they can't do it in the system, they will leave the system. Spain seems to be showing Catalonia that they cannot work within the system.
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Jul 28, 2016 21:01
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https://www.rt.com/news/353771-central-malmo-blast-sweden/ God drat it
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Jul 28, 2016 21:50
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its apparently really hard to perform a successful terror bombing in sweden. Good to know
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Jul 28, 2016 23:46
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They should reform the Crown of Aragon and give them Southern Italy too, solves that problem at the same time
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Jul 29, 2016 00:01
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Dawncloack posted:Second: This is sort of off topic, but does Portugal have much less influence lingering from the Franco/Salazar people because their regime was overthrown by the military itself? Is the Portuguese officer corps is more left-wing than the Spanish one still, or was it solely because of the war in Angola and Mozambique that it was at the time and all those people left?
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Jul 29, 2016 00:55
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i think the moral case for separatism is pretty clear, the problem is that there are tons of people living in any separatist area who don't want to separate and will suffer painful consequences if that happens - either no longer living in the country they want to be a part of, or forced to move somewhere and probably sell their assets for a song.
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Jul 29, 2016 01:02
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Dawncloack posted:Hey thread, this is one of those koolaid-drinking Spaniards I was telling you about! I think you're sick in the head, accusing people of bullshit left and right. Your reasoning for independence without formal procedures is exactly the same as that of sovereign citizens, you're just not seeing it because it's against your politics. TheDeadlyShoe posted:i think the moral case for separatism is pretty clear, the problem is that there are tons of people living in any separatist area who don't want to separate and will suffer painful consequences if that happens - either no longer living in the country they want to be a part of, or forced to move somewhere and probably sell their assets for a song. Exactly right. For that reason it's necessary to go through a proper constitutional process.
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Jul 29, 2016 08:47
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No one injured, no suspects and not even a temporary evacuation order for the building. I think we can presume it was nothing significant.
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Jul 29, 2016 09:01
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Nitrousoxide posted:No, explain why a household or town doesn't have the right to succeed but an arbitrarily larger region does. You do realize that extant states are also arbitrarily larger regions, and by your own argument would therefore have no inherent right to demand a right to independence and sovereignty, do you not?
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Jul 29, 2016 09:32
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Cerebral Bore posted:You do realize that extant states are also arbitrarily larger regions, and by your own argument would therefore have no inherent right to demand a right to independence and sovereignty, do you not? Sorry, world government is the only way to go.
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Jul 29, 2016 09:36
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flavor posted:I think you're sick in the head, accusing people of bullshit left and right. Oooh look, someone who had not been missed in this thread. "Left and right" ? That means you can find other examples, right? They are doing their constitutional process right now, they just realize, correctly, that asking the rest of the country for permission is idiotic. Sod off with you trying to trigger people with Sovereign Citizen BS. All those people are good for is getting tazed and giving us some laffs. icantfindaname posted:This is sort of off topic, but does Portugal have much less influence lingering from the Franco/Salazar people because their regime was overthrown by the military itself? Is the Portuguese officer corps is more left-wing than the Spanish one still, or was it solely because of the war in Angola and Mozambique that it was at the time and all those people left? Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Jul 29, 2016 |
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Jul 29, 2016 09:52
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Dawncloack posted:
All the old families were told to get the gently caress out back in the 70's, then Cavaco Silva let the all come back in the 80's/90's in the first wave of privatisations. That's how the Espírito Santo family got back in charge of the Banco Espírito Santo, cause you know they know better than the statehahhahhahahahhahahhahaa But the military is not left wing, they just gone ya know. Nobody cares about them outside of parades. And the only connection young people have with the military is having to be forced to spend one day touring some military base when they hit 18. And let me tell you, 18 year old love spending a summer day touring a mouldy military base. There was also that one time a bunch of celebrities related to the military put an ad on the TV about saving the military college. What did the military college need to be saved from? Girls. (this was like 4 years ago)
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Jul 29, 2016 10:25
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flavor posted:I think you're sick in the head, accusing people of bullshit left and right. If Sovereign Citizens formed the majority of a part of the US they could make the argument from independence from the Federal government. But they're too widespread and incompetent to pull that kind of thing off, and their ideology definitely runs contrary to having the organisational infrastructure necessary to quantify their political weight, unlike the Catalans who have a political system through which they can express a popular political desire for independence. But if, say, 50% of Oregon voted for an "Oregon Independence - Sovereign Citizens Movement" party in the next election, that independence movement would be totally valid.
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Jul 29, 2016 10:45
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What if citizens of Narva or some other town in the Baltic region with a large percentage of ethnic Russians voted for their region's independence? And then later voted to merge with Russia?
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Jul 29, 2016 11:44
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If it is a legitimate statement of self-determination? Then it should be respected.
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Jul 29, 2016 11:48
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Doctor Malaver posted:What if citizens of Narva or some other town in the Baltic region with a large percentage of ethnic Russians voted for their region's independence? And then later voted to merge with Russia? Donetsk 2: Baltic Boogaloo
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Jul 29, 2016 11:48
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MiddleOne posted:No one injured, no suspects and not even a temporary evacuation order for the building. I think we can presume it was nothing significant. Sweden is probably Europe's leading country in explosive attacks. Gangsters use them a lot . It is weird because it is in the news almost weekly in Sweden but you never hear about something similar in the U.K on BBC or something.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:09
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YF-23 posted:If it is a legitimate statement of self-determination? Then it should be respected. And how would you define 'legitimate'? Let's imagine this situation... Narva's citizens express desire to hold a referendum. Estonian government refuses. They hold an unofficial referendum and say that the results are overwhelmingly in favor of Leave. Estonian government doesn't recognize it. Various polls and surveys confirm that the majority of citizens are in favor of Leave. So is it legitimate? Somewhat related, do you feel the citizens of Northern Cyprus made a legitimate statement of self-determination?
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Jul 29, 2016 12:10
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MRLOLAST posted:Sweden is probably Europe's leading country in explosive attacks. Gangsters use them a lot . It is weird because it is in the news almost weekly in Sweden but you never hear about something similar in the U.K on BBC or something. Doesn't fit the narrative of YOU MUST BE TERRIFIED AT ALL TIMES AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH that the British media make such good money portraying.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:12
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Tesseraction posted:Doesn't fit the narrative of YOU MUST BE TERRIFIED AT ALL TIMES AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH that the British media make such good money portraying. Haha I was about to say.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:14
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Self-determination only exists, legally speaking, in a colonial context. Because the decolonization process is why the UN formulated it that way in its charter. It was not meant to apply to developed nations. A good discussion of this can be seen in the Supreme Court of Canada's reference regarding the secession of Quebec. Obviously other countries are free to disagree with the SC's findings but it did go over international precedents and found that the arguments pro Quebecois self-determination are... Lacking. It's specifically question 2 addressed by the SC in its reference. You can read it here if you wish. quote:The Court was also required to consider whether a right to unilateral secession exists under international law. Some supporting an affirmative answer did so on the basis of the recognized right to self-determination that belongs to all "peoples". Although much of the Quebec population certainly shares many of the characteristics of a people, it is not necessary to decide the "people" issue because, whatever may be the correct determination of this issue in the context of Quebec, a right to secession only arises under the principle of self-determination of people at international law where "a people" is governed as part of a colonial empire; where "a people" is subject to alien subjugation, domination or exploitation; and possibly where "a people" is denied any meaningful exercise of its right to self-determination within the state of which it forms a part. In other circumstances, peoples are expected to achieve self-determination within the framework of their existing state. A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self‑determination in its internal arrangements, is entitled to maintain its territorial integrity under international law and to have that territorial integrity recognized by other states. Quebec does not meet the threshold of a colonial people or an oppressed people, nor can it be suggested that Quebecers have been denied meaningful access to government to pursue their political, economic, cultural and social development. In the circumstances, the "National Assembly, the legislature or the government of Quebec" do not enjoy a right at international law to effect the secession of Quebec from Canada unilaterally. As I said, you're free to disagree with the Court. But mainstream doctrine in international law is not in favour of using the right to self-determination used for unilateral secession by regions in the first-world. Canada's SC ruling is just an important example used to illustrate the doctrine in legal educations.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:16
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Cerebral Bore posted:You do realize that extant states are also arbitrarily larger regions, and by your own argument would therefore have no inherent right to demand a right to independence and sovereignty, do you not? This is correct. The right to independence comes from disenfranchisement. YF-23 posted:If Sovereign Citizens formed the majority of a part of the US they could make the argument from independence from the Federal government. But they're too widespread and incompetent to pull that kind of thing off, and their ideology definitely runs contrary to having the organisational infrastructure necessary to quantify their political weight, unlike the Catalans who have a political system through which they can express a popular political desire for independence. But if, say, 50% of Oregon voted for an "Oregon Independence - Sovereign Citizens Movement" party in the next election, that independence movement would be totally valid. US states don't have the right to succeed. We fought a war over that. Perhaps you've heard of it?
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Jul 29, 2016 12:19
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