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Yeah speaking as another person who has never been and never will be in that position, that all sounds completely accurate; the number one goal is to get you into a better place, the number two goal is to protect yourself and your reputation, and the number three goal is to help the HR of the company remove the toxic, dangerous manager from a position of power.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:12
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You have nothing to gain and everything to lose, and pretty much no leverage to achieve anything unless you are willing to lawyer up.
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Jul 29, 2016 22:46
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I once had an abusive rear end in a top hat boss. I quit abruptly, after a history of being a good employee, with zero explanation. They ended up investigating it at the corporate level and fired the guy. I offer this as encouragement, because my treatment wasn't even close to being as bad as your's, and the company was otherwise pretty crappy but they still did the right thing.
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Jul 29, 2016 22:59
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Update: Everything went better than anticipated. I turned my letter in to the VP, who is my boss' boss. When pressed, I said there was a documented history of harassment and my impression from my boss was that reports of harassment faced retribution. She was appalled. She apologized profusely and repeatedly asked if there was anything they could do to retain me because she sees me as one of their top employees and 'smartest people here.' She got very upset and sent my boss to another building so I could gather my things and leave. She also offered to be a personal reference and that the door is always open to return in the future; she wrote out all her personal information on her business card for future reference. I thanked her and left. I received and accepted an offer from a new company. (Got the verbal offer yesterday, waited till I signed the agreement today to resign). Anticipate starting in ~2 weeks. I successfully negotiated nearly 50% raise, with substantially better (fully comped) benefits and the opportunity for professional growth. Also hopefully no creeplord bosses. As for anyone asking why I stayed so long: I live in an at-will state and have watched multiple people be terminated apropos nothing. This is my first professional position out of grad school and a major shift (rare books to analyst work) and I didn't want to gently caress up my first opportunity to show competency. My boss is the person with whom I have 90% of my professional interactions and from day one, he has emphasized repeatedly the inefficacy of HR and that 'people who cause problems get fired.' I do not have the financial solvency to just quit a job without something lined up, and I tried to use my time at this company to develop as much as I could, learn as much as possible, and otherwise plan for the 'next step.' By being patient, I managed to get a new position with great pay, excellent benefits, etc.
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Jul 30, 2016 04:08
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Bitchkrieg posted:Update: Everything went better than anticipated.
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Jul 30, 2016 04:35
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Bitchkrieg posted:Update: Everything went better than anticipated. Well done! 
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Jul 30, 2016 06:00
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Thought I should brush up on this thread given I have a performance review (chance for a raise) in two weeks. Some quick info, I work in industrial controls, mostly in the automotive sector. I do a fair bit of configuration, troubleshooting, direct contact with customers, along with some design, and project management. I've been with the company for over 2.5 years now. I work in a branch office of 12 people, that's part of a company with ~100 employee's throughout the US, along with a Canadian and Mexican branch. just over a year ago, I had my first review, and got a ~16% raise. My manager mentioned he'd be getting me up another 40% over the next 2-3 years. I recall you shouldn't use negatives to justify a pay increase (in my case, extensive travel, with short notice extensions). So I'll focus on what I think are points of showing increased responsibility and skills. 1) Designed a custom two door panel, which was installed and started up successfully in a very short time frame. 2) Provided support, trouble shooting, and reporting over a 2 week period, and stayed on another week when requested. Customer was very satisfied and ask for me to assist in a future project as well. 3) Solo worked on a two week project for a customer, mostly config clean up, however I presented a plan to the customer, and achieved it in the allotted time despite finding far more work that initially expected. Completion involved coordinating with various departments and groups within the customers company. 4) Worked as lead support, trouble shooting, reporting, and managing 3 others under me (I'll ignore the fact they're all more experienced than me and work without any real supervision). Initial support was for 2 weeks, which I agree'd to work two more extensions for a total of 4 weeks. 5) continuing to build skills, expertise, and knowledge, allowing me to complete work faster and with better quality. I feel like that gives me a decent amount to go on. 10% raise would make me more content with all this traveling I'm doing, while 15-20% would be great, and more inline with what my manager mentioned last year. If I'm going to be putting my life on hold with all this travel and 65 hour work weeks, I'd at least like to be making large gains in my savings. I like the work, my co-workers, and even most of my customers. Even the hours aren't so bad, usually only gets up there for a few weeks at a time. Only real downside is with all the traveling, with short notice. It makes it hard to plan anything outside of work, or keep up with any organized sports/hobbies. I've become known as a workaholic to some friends. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
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Jul 30, 2016 07:23
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Can you translate those successes into dollars/contract value/etc?
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Jul 30, 2016 13:45
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Bitchkrieg posted:Update: Everything went better than anticipated. Congratulations on your new job. It sounds like your ex-manager represents only himself and not your former employer. You executed extremely well and had a good plan, and now you've got a good reference without your ex-boss. It's entirely probable he'll be fired or otherwise suffer some negative consequence, and will not internalize responsibility for that consequence. You've got a good head on your shoulders and can take care of yourself. Be safe and thoughtful.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:13
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CarForumPoster posted:Can you translate those successes into dollars/contract value/etc? That could be tricky... I'm not involved in the estimating/accounting side of things.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:52
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Golluk posted:That could be tricky... I'm not involved in the estimating/accounting side of things. It looks like you focus on how your achievements benefited the company. This is good. The cherry and icing to those statements are here's how much cash or project schedule that saved. Being honest there are many things I have done that were going above and beyond but my company defines an impact as 1 week schedule or $1.0 million savings. I cant point to anything and say the thing I worked on did that. It also set my world view on what I need to look for to make a difference. When I look for how I can make a big impact, I have those numbers in mind.
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Jul 31, 2016 02:51
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I don't want to count my chickens, but I have been interviewing for a marketing/pr job in my state's public university system and that's gone very well. I've been through the opening interview, a callback interview with two more panels and a second callback/third interview to talk one on one with the vice president of the department. All of those have gone well and I have a reference from a different department manager from the University so I feel like my odds of receiving an offer this week are reasonably good. So here's my question. I think the advice in the OP to let them wait a day before calling back with a counter offer makes sense for a bigger corporate setting, but they've made it clear they want to both fill the position as quickly as possible (for a public college of course) and that they want someone enthusiastic about working there, so I think I plan on listening to their offer and saying something like "that's generous and I am excited for the opportunity, but could you possibly do $XX,XXX? I know I'm a great fit for the position and my past experience (blah blah...)" Is that a fine idea? And if they come back with "sorry but that's the best we can do" do I just say "well that's OK, it was worth a shot, I accept"? I should add they're going through a budget squeeze and enrollment drop so I don't want to come off like I am trying to milk them and I'd be happy with any offer in their listed range, but I also agree you should always try to negotiate.
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Aug 1, 2016 15:20
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Bluedeanie posted:I don't want to count my chickens, but I have been interviewing for a marketing/pr job in my state's public university system and that's gone very well. I've been through the opening interview, a callback interview with two more panels and a second callback/third interview to talk one on one with the vice president of the department. All of those have gone well and I have a reference from a different department manager from the University so I feel like my odds of receiving an offer this week are reasonably good. First, you can wait a day if you want. Everyone expects you to think about it or talk it over. Second, since its public theyll probably talk in terms of steps or something based on your education, number of years experience, and whatever other metrics some useless government bureaucrat drone came up with. Use that to talk yourself higher. If they dont move on numbers governments and equally useless institutions often have set promotion times, counter with an offer to move that sooner. If you want the filthy poo poo government job you should decide your walkaway point before calling. Dont forget relocation, either you need it or can use your lack of it for your negotiation with your soulless hellish employer whos probably unionized and sucking on the teet of American private work ethic.
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Aug 1, 2016 15:49
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Bluedeanie posted:I feel like my odds of receiving an offer this week are reasonably good. As the tone of this thread says, your phrasing should be more assertive. You should also have a "just say yes" number in mind. For my first job after college, I negotiated and the result was +3k/yr and +5k bonus. I had a just say yes number, they didnt meet it but were in the range I'd accept if they played hardball. I countered with slightly above my just say yes number and they upped it still within range. I chose to accept at this point. For my second job I had a just say yes number and my employer knew I had just interviewed at a competitor of theirs. The recruiter asked flat out "if I can get you $X will you say, yes?" This was above my just say yes number so I said yes. He called me back two days later and said "I got you $X, what do you say?" and I of course accepted like I said I would. No negotiating in the sense of this thread's coaching because none was needed.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:37
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Well, maybe this will happen everywhere and we can stop answering the "what should I put in the previous salary box" and instead say "do not volunteer this information, and if they ask, they're doing something illegal". http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2016/08/01/3803836/massachusetts-equal-pay/
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Aug 2, 2016 12:38
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That strikes me as one of those big government coddling people things. The idea that an employer is not allowed to ask people to volunteer information (that isn't related to overt discrimination) seems silly. It's like saying the police can't ask "do you know how fast you were going"
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Aug 2, 2016 16:30
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CarForumPoster posted:That strikes me as one of those big government coddling people things. The idea that an employer is not allowed to ask people to volunteer information (that isn't related to overt discrimination) seems silly. It's like saying the police can't ask "do you know how fast you were going" you're an idiot
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Aug 2, 2016 16:41
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Like most people posting here, I need a little advice. Last year I got offered a contract position for a really cool gig. However, they only were offering 6 month contract, so I demanded what I thought was a ridiculous hourly rate since I would have to leave my lame but secure job. Unexpectedly, I got the rate I wanted, and the contract has been extended up to a year and a half. The job title was/is Support Technician, but basically I work in an office full of engineers and I handle all the other stuff so they can engineer cool poo poo. I'm not a 1099 contractor, rather I work through a contract house so I get some benefits (medical, 401K, dental, etc...) Recently I was offered to transition to full time, but there are some catches. Right now my annual compensation is really high for where I live, especially for someone in a technical field without a college degree. (I started as a technician in the military, and have since worked my way up.) The company's offer is: -$45k/year less than what I'm making now. -$4k end of year bonus -$5k signing bonus -Stock shares totaling $30k -Benefits are pretty good My questions are: 1. Like an rear end in a top hat I didn't read this thread first, so I gave them a salary range. Guess what, as you guys said their offer is on the lowest end of that range. Can I expect to be able to pull my self out of this hole? My work experience is pretty rare, there aren't a lot of people in my area who do what I do. 2. The stock shares are nice, but they vest over 4 years and the stock is at a 6 year high. Checked this morning and the value for the number of shares specified has dropped $500. I don't care about this stock plan, to me it sucks. Will most companies allow you to take less equity for more cash? 3. In your experience how much negotiation room do people have when transitioning from contract to full time within the same company? They of course already knew what I was making, and they also now that I am making a lot more than I could expect to make in the area I live in. (The company and 99% of the employees are in California, I'm in Indiana) 4. Generally how good is Glassdoor in figuring the expected salary for a position? Thank you
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Aug 2, 2016 17:13
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They asked you what your salary range is and you gave them a number 45k lower than what you're making now? Sorry to say but you kind of just emptied the whole clip into your foot. That's the rate they gave you when they didn't know if you were going to work out, you're worth strictly more to them now that you've proven yourself. Beyond that, your pay should go up because they don't have to pay the middleman any more. It sounds like you don't really believe that your work is worth the amount of money they currently pay for it, and you're wrong. You might want to sheepishly admit you did some math wrong or something, that's a weird situation though and I don't know if that will work. Submit resumes elsewhere I guess - taking a job for 45k less may well ripple out in future negotiation rounds. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 17:24
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:They asked you what your salary range is and you gave them a number 45k lower than what you're making now?
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Aug 2, 2016 18:24
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Yeah so a couple things: In GENERAL a transition from contract to full time will lead to a reduction in hourly compensation. Part of the premium of a contract worker is that there's no mutual expectation of a continued relationship and so the hourly rate is higher to account for that risk factor. By getting into a W-2 relationship with the intermediary party instead of 1099 with the people you worked directly with, that intermediary got a cut and so the money out the company's pocket was higher than what you were paid hourly. In exchange for this the clients got some coverage on liability, access to a labor pool, and a few other things. But this rule is not set in stone. You're a known quantity and their only support engineer. Bonuses are worthless, because they can not happen. Never include a bonus in your compensation package calculations. So yeah, you've emptied the magazine into your foot. Can it be saved? Well things can go better, but you need to up your game. If you do not up your game, you will not get better compensation, and there's noone around you can blame for that but yourself. Company equity is only a valuable form of compensation if you have some sort of liquidity mechanism available. If the company is publicly traded then that's easy, you can sell shares as they vest (for a total of $30k over 4 years, or $7.5k year). If it's privately held you'll have to find a purchaser to buy them if you want to get any money out of those shares, and that can be difficult. I've gotten option grants and passed up on executing them because there was no liquidity for getting that money back out. When transitioning from contract to full time, the amount of negotiating room you have is the same as it is everywhere else: what is your BATNA? If you can get another job at or near what you're making now doing support for some other company you can tell these guys to pound sand. If the $45k cut is still $10k better than you'll get anywhere else, then you don't have a better option. YOU need to do the work to find out what your other alternatives are. That might mean contacting other employers and seeing what they'll offer you for your skills. That might mean going to your W--2 employer and seeing if they have any other work with other clients. You're talented enough to get a full time offer this time, you may very well get another such offer with another employer, and in the future you can not gently caress up the negotiating. Finally you can try and play games and tell stories but at the end of the day you have two moves: accepting the pay cut and getting full time with the devil you know, or walking and maintaining your compensation with an unknown environment. You can also prepare to walk, get a written offer, and take it back to your current clients for negotiating leverage for why you shouldn't take a pay cut. You've got some work to do, and you've made it substantial by what you have done incorrectly already. Time to focus and execute.
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Aug 2, 2016 19:32
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Thanks for the detailed response. The company is traded publicly, and the shares vest over 4 years. It's currently at a 5 year high, so equity offer seems to be to be not that great of a deal. My current contract compensation is $60/hour, or around 124k/year. The current full time offer is 80k base without bonuses figured in. I'm in Indianapolis, and they know I would have a hard time matching 80k around here, especially since I don't have a college degree. I do have a few contacts here and there, time to start sending Christmas cards/whiskey bottles. Thanks for taking the time to write that, I'm going to get cracking on this today. This has certainly been a lesson learned.
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Aug 2, 2016 20:22
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It sounds like your benefits also change in your favor - are you valuing things like 401k matching, health insurance quality and cost, etc as well?
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Aug 2, 2016 20:24
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It sounds like your benefits also change in your favor - are you valuing things like 401k matching, health insurance quality and cost, etc as well?
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Aug 2, 2016 21:15
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Risket posted:Thanks for the detailed response.
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Aug 2, 2016 21:18
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I assume that means they are giving you options and not restricted stock? With the latter it doesn't matter what the current price is. Risket fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 21:19
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Risket posted:Sorry, I should have specified, they're RSUs It only matters if the price changes between when you get your offer and when the RSUs vest, but if you could predict that, you could just be playing the stock market instead of working.
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Aug 2, 2016 21:23
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Blinky2099 posted:Then the equity offer timing doesn't matter. If you get a $50,000 offer, it doesn't matter if current price is $1 or $100 of the stock; you're still getting $50,000 worth.
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Aug 2, 2016 21:30
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Risket posted:The first 25% won't vest for a year, so I imagine the stock price will change between now and then.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:10
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Risket posted:The first 25% won't vest for a year, so I imagine the stock price will change between now and then.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:39
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I would discount the value of unvested RSUs compared to cash compensation but that's more of a personal preference. Is your current contract joint giving you any retirement benefits? If not, you're getting an extra $2,400 from the 401k match at minimum.
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Aug 2, 2016 23:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I would discount the value of unvested RSUs compared to cash compensation but that's more of a personal preference.
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Aug 2, 2016 23:22
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When you gave a range, did you phrase it as "Depending on benefits/total compensation...." Because that gives you a little wiggle-room to negotiate a bit more. Can you decline the offer and continue working on contract without facing consequences? If yes, then you can negotiate from a position of relative strength because your BATNA is status quo. But it could be that they were under the gun when you quoted a rate to them (or the person who accepted it was looking bay area rates and not Indiana rate), and now they want to reduce that expense. If that's the case, your position is pretty weak. They know you can't go somewhere else and make the same money. Either way, you're clearly talented at your job. Doing all the support tasks and doing them well so that engineers can be solely engineers is a valuable and rare skill. Engineers are notoriously stingy with sharing responsibility, and often reluctant to accept help. By the time you've worked for as long as you have (total career), the degree or lack-thereof is not a very big deal. Don't sell yourself short.
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Aug 3, 2016 00:01
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Dik Hz posted:When you gave a range, did you phrase it as "Depending on benefits/total compensation...." Because that gives you a little wiggle-room to negotiate a bit more. Thank you all for the advice, I greatly appreciate it.
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Aug 3, 2016 00:16
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Comedy option: "Oh I forgot how this W-2 thing works, I meant 80k after taxes"
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Aug 3, 2016 00:28
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Risket posted:Luckily the engineers I work with are all pros, and are glad to accept my help.
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Aug 3, 2016 01:15
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Comedy option: "Oh I forgot how this W-2 thing works, I meant 80k after taxes"
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Aug 3, 2016 01:36
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Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Dec 6, 2017 |
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Aug 4, 2016 13:03
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Well, going into my review today was rather nerve wracking. When I got back into the office this week, I found out our two panel shop guys had been laid off. Between that and not being sure of my work schedule going forward, I was half expecting to get laid off myself. Thankfully the review went well, and still plenty of work around for my skill set. Never really did any negotiating, the number that came out was a 13.5% increase. So yeah for that. Of course it probably means I'm underpaid if I'm getting raises like that without having to change jobs or negotiate.
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Aug 10, 2016 00:31
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I'm new to this whole salary negotiation thing, having entered my last job straight out of university and stayed there for 10 years before taking a redundancy earlier this year. I've been interviewing with a particular company and it's gone really well - they offered me the job however their offer ($95k) is around average for the position and location. I have a fairly uncommon skillset that fits great with what they're looking for, and I'm looking to push the offer up to the higher end of the range. Can I get some feedback on my wording?quote:I'm very excited to be a part of the <company> team and I'm eager to get started with building up the product portfolio. I feel that my multi-disciplinary experience in mechanical engineering, software development, and IT infrastructure is a great match for the position. However, my research indicates that the salary range for similar positions is $80k - $130k. Given my experience, skillset, and the value I can bring to your team I think that my salary should be at the higher end of that range and so while I appreciate your offer of $95k I'm looking for a figure closer to the $130k mark. I hope that we can work something out. Thanks! Edit: got the figures mixed up a bit, hope it makes more sense now. One of the things I'm concerned about is that $130k s about 35% higher than $95k which is higher than most of the percentage-based counters I've seen. Does it make more sense to pitch the counter relative to the offer or relative to the established range for the position? Edit2: put in actual figures for clarity Bjork Bjowlob fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 07:36
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