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CaptainRightful: Jan 11, 2005

Played the main scenario of Falling Sky yesterday and Belgae won at the 2nd Winter, reaching their minimum VP requirement on the final event card.

A few thoughts:

I enjoyed it immensely. The gameplay is significantly different from CL and FITL. There's a lot more combat, the possibility of retreat, supply lines, citadels and forts much stronger than bases, and the Germans... all fun stuff.

The bots are more thorough than ever, which made the initial learning a bit tedious--particularly having to calculate casualties for both sides before deciding whether to even engage in battle. And the typical Volko/Oerjan phrasing can take some time to puzzle through.

There's no "region randomizer" chart, but I rarely had to make such choices, so that's not really needed. The battle chart and general bot strategy chart were far more helpful.

The bots felt like they were playing to win, not just ganging up on me. I was Averni, and after Caesar drove back the Belgae, he went on a German adventure. This made it nearly impossible for me to get close enough to him to actually take out his legions.

I'm anxious to go another round, but it seems unlikely that sessions will ever get as quick as Cuba Libre.

# ? Jul 31, 2016 16:08

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# ? May 21, 2024 06:50

MoreLikeTen: Oct 21, 2012; The farmer's mistake was believing he had any control over his life.

I've got a COIN/ A distant plain question. Are you ever allowed to choose the COIN-unfriendly version of events as the afgan government? I needed it to gently caress over my coalition partner just before the propaganda round, but I couldn't find anything explicitly in the rules one way or the other.

# ? Jul 31, 2016 17:12

Dr. Lunchables: Dec 27, 2012; IRL DEBUFFED KOBOLD

MoreLikeTen posted:

I've got a COIN/ A distant plain question. Are you ever allowed to choose the COIN-unfriendly version of events as the afgan government? I needed it to gently caress over my coalition partner just before the propaganda round, but I couldn't find anything explicitly in the rules one way or the other.

You're allowed to pick either event. There are no rules on who gets shaded or unshaded events, only that whoever chooses "Event" has the option.

# ? Jul 31, 2016 17:24

CaptainRightful: Jan 11, 2005

You're always allowed to take either choice.

# ? Jul 31, 2016 17:24

Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

Played another Full scenario of Fire in the Lake, US vs 3 bots. I pretty much crushed the insurgents and kept COIN control high, making sure to decrease Patronage whenever possible. Final score: 61, to ARVN's 41; the insurgent scores were in the single digits and they had no money ever. I kinda feel like the US bot is the only capable one of the bunch, though I'm sure I implemented some flowchart stuff wrong. Overall this didn't feel very hard, though it was more challenge than when I ran two bots myself.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 06:59

Fat Samurai: Feb 16, 2011; To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.

A friend is planning to buy a COIN game, but doesn't have any preference, besides feeling that A Distant Plain may be a bad idea due to one of the factions being the Taliban. I remember someone posting a detailed description of the differences between the games regarding complexity and how well the game handled bots, but I can't find it.

Someone know what I'm talking about/could give some pointers about the different games?

# ? Aug 1, 2016 10:13

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

I can give a quick round down:

Andean Abyss: I would not recommend it (also probably OOP). It is the original COIN but it is kind of unpolished and rough around the edges. Has limited Botting potential because one of the factions (government) isn't botted at all. Only buy if you are interested in the conflict. Medium complexity, as most of the factions in the game were the base for some of the other factions in other COINs.

Cuba Libre: Best possible entrance in COINs. Has a limited map, small decision space and plays quicker. Events are more powerful, allowing newbies and experienced players to compete. Has some chrome (like Casinos), but the limits on the decision space make it the easiest COIN to get into. Plays well at 3/4 players with Syndicate bot if you play at 3 players. Relatively low complexity.

A Distant Plain: In my opinion, the most interesting COIN. Has incredible faction interactions that far outshine any other COIN. Has issues with sudden victory of the coalition if you aren't careful/not experienced with the game. Bots fairly well although the game suffers because the bots can't really handle the amount of politics present in the game, and ideally plays well with only 4. High complexity due to size of board/faction interaction.

Fire in the Lake: Probably the most complex COIN: huge number of areas within the map, huge decision base. Plays well with 2 without botting since it is a pretty cut and dry 2v2 game. Plays well with 4. Bots are pretty good but some sides are easier to play than others: playing US/ARVN is much easier than insurgents. Not recommended as first COIN.

Liberty of Death: It's a 2v2 wargame. I think it works well in that regard and is probably a nice take on the conflict but playing French/native in a free-for-all game is probably not that interesting. Medium complexity. I wouldn't recommend it as a starting COIN because it is so distinct from all other COINs.

Falling Sky: Slightly bigger/more complex than Cuba Libre, but a very compelling game. The interactions between the Romans and Gauls in the game are handled in a very interesting way. It is, however, very different from all other COINs and probably not a good intro to the game. Not sure how easy it is to bot.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 10:25

Fat Samurai: Feb 16, 2011; To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.

Perfect, thanks.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 10:46

Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

Tekopo posted:

I can give a quick round down:

Andean Abyss: I would not recommend it (also probably OOP). It is the original COIN but it is kind of unpolished and rough around the edges. Has limited Botting potential because one of the factions (government) isn't botted at all. Only buy if you are interested in the conflict. Medium complexity, as most of the factions in the game were the base for some of the other factions in other COINs.

I've seen a few times that AA has less polish or quality-of-life features, but I haven't played it myself. What sort of things are you referring to?

# ? Aug 1, 2016 12:20

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

Vivian Darkbloom posted:

I've seen a few times that AA has less polish or quality-of-life features, but I haven't played it myself. What sort of things are you referring to?

It is the norm that events in AA are less impactful and rarely worth taking over just doing operations. Some operations are very rarely used if not at all. The government relies on getting capabilities in order to win and if they don't occur early, it has very few tools to deal against insurgents directly, which can be frustrating. The Cartel in the game relies on not being noticed to win, and unfortunately since the map is larger than Cuba Libre, it is much easier for it to do so.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 12:24

INinja132: Aug 7, 2015

As a counter-view I'd probably disagree with many of things that Tekopo said

Firstly surely it's a good thing that operations are a good alternative to events? Otherwise you would simply always take an event instead of an op. I do agree though that some ops could be more relevant. I'd also disagree that the government is reliant on capabilities, I think if they play right and pick their fights well they can do substantial damage to the insurgents, or at least delay them heavily until they get a capability which lets them start fighting back hard.

As for the Cartels, you are right, it is quite easy to hide, but I feel that creates an interesting dynamic, where the other three factions will occasionally have to stop their fighting to stomp on the Cartels for a bit, which of course opens more opportunities to screw each other whilst nominally being on the same side for a turn or two.

I dunno, I've played AA, LoD and ADP and at the moment AA is my favourite. It plays much faster and more simply than both the others, and feels like it has more narrative moments and a much nicer feel to the way the game plays. Equally I've played AA many more times than the others so take that opinion with a pinch of salt.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 13:22

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Tekopo posted:

Liberty of Death: It's a 2v2 wargame. I think it works well in that regard

I haven't really played LoD, but as I remember the victory conditions would make this a little difficult. Isn't it set up so that pro-American/pro-British forces have a threshold to win and then one of those factions wins based on who has made more progress on their personal victory? That seems like it would lose a lot of the intrafaction tension.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 13:23

HerraS: Apr 15, 2012; Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.

Played a game of Cuba Libre with 3 friends during the weekend and it went pretty well. I played the government and spent the entire game just trying to run around putting out fires - I did get pretty close to winning a couple of times and neither 26 or DR ever tried to fight me over Havana. The 26 player also seemed to not really get his win condition, spending way more time massing guerrillas and trying to kill my cubes than spreading out and terroring to get opposition up. Both rebels also left the Syndicate completely alone forcing me to whack his casinos every time a propaganda came up and he was close to winning.

The game ended on a Syndicate win by tiebreaker against the DR. Everyone said they'd be up for playing again, so I'd call it a success.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 13:34

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

INinja132 posted:

As a counter-view I'd probably disagree with many of things that Tekopo said

Firstly surely it's a good thing that operations are a good alternative to events? Otherwise you would simply always take an event instead of an op. I do agree though that some ops could be more relevant. I'd also disagree that the government is reliant on capabilities, I think if they play right and pick their fights well they can do substantial damage to the insurgents, or at least delay them heavily until they get a capability which lets them start fighting back hard.

As for the Cartels, you are right, it is quite easy to hide, but I feel that creates an interesting dynamic, where the other three factions will occasionally have to stop their fighting to stomp on the Cartels for a bit, which of course opens more opportunities to screw each other whilst nominally being on the same side for a turn or two.

I dunno, I've played AA, LoD and ADP and at the moment AA is my favourite. It plays much faster and more simply than both the others, and feels like it has more narrative moments and a much nicer feel to the way the game plays. Equally I've played AA many more times than the others so take that opinion with a pinch of salt.

Yeah, of course, a good player will want to do operations. But the issue with AA is that the events can be extremely situational, or really not that much of an issue at all, which means that in many of the cases there isn't any reason to prevent an opponent from launching an event. CL has events that are too good, but it still works within that framework. With AA, you have events that are on the whole too weak, so the hard decision of 'should I or should I not do a special command or not?' is missed most of the time. It's not about creating situation in which events are always the best option, but making them strong enough that it is a real conundrum to choose them or not. AA, from the games I played, tends to lessen the important decisions compared to card play because 'Operations + Special' is overall stronger, and even having a bad event against you is not that much of a threat.

The Government is reliant on capabilities in as much as the capabilities they have on offer boost the operational tempo that they can work with, and there are some radical swings if you get certain ones early. Sure, you can still fight insurgents but it is that much harder, because the pacification process goes along these lines:

1. Sweep a region.
2. Build a base if you have control, otherwise assault (although the insurgents would have probably rallied).
3. Train police and do civic actions.

Or alternatively:

1. Take control of a region until Propaganda.
2. Take out troops, put in police, hope to god they aren't ambushed.
3. Sweep troops back in
4. Train to perform civic actions.

A good insurgent player will make the above process a living hell, and it is only through the use of capabilities that the government can build up enough of a lead to actually win (at least from my experience). If, for some reason, all the good capabilities are at the bottom of the deck, welp, hope you like getting hosed over repeatedly by insurgents. Also keep in mind that getting capabilities and getting stronger until you finally are able to destroy the insurgents and win is the intended design of the game (representing the Colombian government getting better and better at COIN), but capabilities are dramatically more powerful the earlier they come in the game.

I personally played ADP more than any other game, and to me ADP is much more interesting. The factions are more dynamic, the gameplay is better (bar the lovely surge mechanisms) and the stories it tells are much more interesting.

StashAugustine posted:

I haven't really played LoD, but as I remember the victory conditions would make this a little difficult. Isn't it set up so that pro-American/pro-British forces have a threshold to win and then one of those factions wins based on who has made more progress on their personal victory? That seems like it would lose a lot of the intrafaction tension.

There isn't really all that much intrafaction tension within LoD, not to the extent of other games. LoD is a very distinct game in terms of side, much more so than other games (even FitL). I probably should have said that the best way to play LoD is 1v1, because at heart that's what the game is, and the way that you win a 1v1 or 2v2 game is that your faction needs to fulfill both of it's victory conditions.

The problem with free-for-all LoD is that largely the allied sides can't prevent the other one from victory, not in the way that ARVN/Government and US/Coalition can. As the French, for example, there isn't an easy way to prevent the Patriots from winning. Or, from the Patriot side, do you prevent British casualties from occurring/lose your own units in order to prevent a French victory? The intrafaction interactions are incredibly cloudy in LoD and overall it works better as a 2v2 (or 1v1) game. It's the same issue as the ARVN/US interaction in FitL but even worse.

# ? Aug 1, 2016 13:53

he1ixx: Aug 23, 2007; still bad at video games

I received word that Yanks! is shipping to pre-orders. More counter clipping! 40 new scenarios! Overall I am pretty excited about this.

# ? Aug 2, 2016 12:00

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Out of curiosity anyone played Avalon Hill's old 1776?

# ? Aug 2, 2016 15:16

Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

dtkozl posted:

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/dailynews/

Falling Sky for $42

gdi how did this happen

# ? Aug 3, 2016 04:00

CaptainRightful: Jan 11, 2005

Vivian Darkbloom posted:

gdi how did this happen

You're addicted, but honestly, grabbing every COIN game while it's currently in print is pretty smart.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 05:11

Obfuscation: Jan 1, 2008; Good luck to you, I know you believe in hell

StashAugustine posted:

Out of curiosity anyone played Avalon Hill's old 1776?

I have a copy, yeah. It's quite good for such an old game. Not super historical, but close enough. Plays quickly, rules are fairly simple compared to modern games. Combat resolution uses cards which feels highly innovative for a seventies game. One of the prettiest maps that I've still seen, too.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 06:49

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Vivian Darkbloom posted:

gdi how did this happen

Also it's a great game, so . . . be happy!

# ? Aug 3, 2016 14:41

Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

I tried FitL as VC vs bots, Medium-length scenario, and it really hit that perfect difficulty level for me. All three bots were close to winning at one point but I pulled it off in the end. I've done three Full games now but I think I'll be doing the Medium runs more often. Most importantly, I can realistically get through it in a single play session, but it's also cool that the play focuses more on the Pivotal Events which are quickly playable and more, uh, pivotal in the 3-campaign Medium game. The bots also do a little better, it seems to me, partly because they aren't great at long-term planning for the Full game and partly because the board is set up for more immediate conflict than the '64 or '65 starts. Maybe I can even win as NVA?

# ? Aug 3, 2016 20:07

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Just pulled off a successful Teutoburging of the Roman bot by marching the Belgae into Caesar and the legions, rampaging away all the auxilia and ambushing them all. I wonder if Arminius felt this smug afterwards.

Stay safe kids; always build forts if there are Belgae nearby!

# ? Aug 4, 2016 09:33

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

Not really sure why I got involved in this (from page 2 onwards)

Watch as someone makes a few points, which are argued against, makes extreme (incorrect) comparisons, never addresses replies convincingly and re-iterates previously made points, and then goes out in a huff and calls everyone 'political' like people have ulterior motives for arguing with him.

bgg.thread

# ? Aug 5, 2016 17:46

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

It's funny seeing people treat the Japanese hedgehog strategies like they're as broken as the Halifax Hammer.

Also I think a lot of people treat games like some kind of system that applies to every circumstance, like some kind of physics simulator(see: the France 1940 comment).

# ? Aug 5, 2016 18:04

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

Tekopo posted:

Not really sure why I got involved in this (from page 2 onwards)

Watch as someone makes a few points, which are argued against, makes extreme (incorrect) comparisons, never addresses replies convincingly and re-iterates previously made points, and then goes out in a huff and calls everyone 'political' like people have ulterior motives for arguing with him.

bgg.thread

I saw that! (cause I stalk you on bgg shut up)

Very interesting thread, and it kind of reiterates my worry about even trying to learn EotS, in that it kinda feels like NT for the "if you haven't played enough to understand *why* you want to do something, it hasn't clicked yet" feel and I barely get to play wargames as it is.

Is that a fair description?

# ? Aug 5, 2016 18:05

Finster Dexter: Oct 20, 2014; Beyond is Finster's mad vision of Earth transformed.

What is "OCS"?

Also, I picked up a super cheap 1st edition of EotS. Do I need to do anything to it to bring it in line with later editions, beyond getting a deluxe map? I'm thinking just print out the latest rules and go to town, but are there updated cards or anything I should be aware of?

# ? Aug 5, 2016 18:44

Taran_Wanderer: Nov 4, 2013

Finster Dexter posted:

What is "OCS"?

Also, I picked up a super cheap 1st edition of EotS. Do I need to do anything to it to bring it in line with later editions, beyond getting a deluxe map? I'm thinking just print out the latest rules and go to town, but are there updated cards or anything I should be aware of?

There are some cards that were changed. Several of the weaker events were turned into Military Events to make them more worth playing, I think. There's a card manifest on BGG that you can compare your own cards to.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 18:50

Count Thrashula: Jun 1, 2003; Death is nothing compared to vindication.; Buglord

Finster Dexter posted:

What is "OCS"?

Operational Combat System, the system used for games like Case Blue, Enemy at the Gates, DAK2, etc... considered one of the more "complicated" game systems.

edit-- for reference, this is Case Blue

Count Thrashula fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Aug 5, 2016

# ? Aug 5, 2016 18:51

Finster Dexter: Oct 20, 2014; Beyond is Finster's mad vision of Earth transformed.

COOL CORN posted:

Operational Combat System, the system used for games like Case Blue, Enemy at the Gates, DAK2, etc... considered one of the more "complicated" game systems.

edit-- for reference, this is Case Blue

Hmm, ok, so kind of the "ASL" of strategic level operations? That sounds really cool to me, actually.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 19:17

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

silvergoose posted:

I saw that! (cause I stalk you on bgg shut up)

Very interesting thread, and it kind of reiterates my worry about even trying to learn EotS, in that it kinda feels like NT for the "if you haven't played enough to understand *why* you want to do something, it hasn't clicked yet" feel and I barely get to play wargames as it is.

Is that a fair description?

Yeah, it is kind of like that. I was lucky enough to learn alongside another newbie to the system so we learnt together, but it is the case that learning the rules doesn't tell you how to play the game. OCS is the same I feel.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 19:22

tomdidiot: Apr 23, 2014; Stupid Grognard

Tekopo posted:

Yeah, it is kind of like that. I was lucky enough to learn alongside another newbie to the system so we learnt together, but it is the case that learning the rules doesn't tell you how to play the game. OCS is the same I feel.

It's a really difficult game to grok. We played OCS for Babbies (Reluctant Enemies), and were both pretty unwaware about how to actually do things. Launching offensives in OCS is pretty hard.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 20:04

Count Thrashula: Jun 1, 2003; Death is nothing compared to vindication.; Buglord

Speaking of laughable difficult games to grok, I started a really basic ASL scenario to refamiliarize myself with the rules. This is a great scenario, and is the first actual full ASL scenario I played way back when. No vehicles, no crewed guns, not even any snipers, it's great.

It's T1 - Gavin Take, a scenario where the Americans are trying to rush through/around Chef-du-Pont to take a key bridge. It's freely downloadable from MMP's website.

Here is my setup:

The Americans have set entry points, with homullus's team at the Green hex and Taran and my teams at the Red hex. The object is to get at least one leader and at least one squad (or equivalent) to exit via the purple hex at the bottom. The Germans have to set up anywhere within the little circular road going around the town in the middle. The Germans are a little hamstrung in the setup, since there's only a couple places where they can actually SEE the Americans coming in, so I set up Jobbo's team with a medium machine gun and a light machine gun in a building on the west side of the town, looking down that road. I set up Stash Augustine's and Tekopo's teams on the east side. They're 99% probably not going to see any of the Americans coming in, but it does force them to go around the town instead of through. And then they'll make a bee line south to block the Americans off.

End of American Turn 1:

Homullus' team decided to try and tempt fate in the west and moved within line of sight of Jobbo's team. Jobbo + 2 squads' morale all broke, but nobody died. The other two squads with them booked it over the hill and across the road, double timing it (CX) to make it extra far. In the east, as expected, my team and Taran's team all made it down the road quietly, without any Germans able to see them (the hedge between hexes W3/X2 blocks LOS). The eastern side of the map is going to be a real pain in the rear end to deal with for the Germans.

End of German Turn 1:

Homullus managed to rally himself back to battle, but couldn't get his two squads back into fighting shape. A single squad + MMG stayed in hex O5 to fire on them again during the prep fire phase. This didn't break the leader, and didn't kill any squad members, but it did put them into DM again (which gives a +4 penalty when trying to rally them next turn). The rest of Jobbo's squad moved into a building to the southwest to try and stave off Homullus' team. In the east, Stash Augustine's team moved to a building by the grainfield in the south, in order to cut off the Americans as they come around the south side of the hill, and Tekopo's team moved to a position in the south part of the town, so that they'd have a perfect view of the exit hex. As things heat up, these huge stacks will split up more, but for now, the first turn it done, and the pieces are set.

Stay turned for part 2, whenever I feel like it! (This is so much easier to write when I'm not having to try and explain every little rule.)

# ? Aug 5, 2016 20:50

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

oh so I'm a Nazi now?

cool writeup!

# ? Aug 5, 2016 20:53

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

GOD DAMNIT CORN! :argh:

# ? Aug 5, 2016 20:53

Count Thrashula: Jun 1, 2003; Death is nothing compared to vindication.; Buglord

Jobbo_Fett posted:

GOD DAMNIT CORN!

What'd I do?? I'm just practicing for our game

# ? Aug 5, 2016 20:56

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

COOL CORN posted:

What'd I do?? I'm just practicing for our game

Yeah. Practicing without me! I'm hurt by this, I thought we were friends.

Also, did you advance anyone in the advance phase? Its a free hex (almost!)

# ? Aug 5, 2016 21:05

Count Thrashula: Jun 1, 2003; Death is nothing compared to vindication.; Buglord

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Yeah. Practicing without me! I'm hurt by this, I thought we were friends.

Do you think Rocky Balboa and Ivan Drago practiced together before their big bout?!

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Also, did you advance anyone in the advance phase? Its a free hex (almost!)

Of course! I always advance when I can.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 21:16

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

COOL CORN posted:

Do you think Rocky Balboa and Ivan Drago practiced together before their big bout?!

According to the "Behind the Scenes" documentary? Yes :v:

# ? Aug 5, 2016 21:21

Taran_Wanderer: Nov 4, 2013

Nice! I'm always amazed at how much more you can care about a stupid little piece of cardboard if it's got the right name. Go little yellow me!

I'm also pleased that Corn Squad is yellow.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 21:41

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# ? May 21, 2024 06:50

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

Glad to see that COOL CORN thinks I'm a literal Nazi :v:

# ? Aug 5, 2016 21:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Board Wargames Thread - Armchair General HQ

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