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Kim Jong ill posted:So I should just go back to the Minekaze and start working my way up an actually functional DD tree? High tier IJN destroyers have basically been nerfed into the ground because occasionally changing your heading is too complicated for many pubbies. Meanwhile, the equivalent tier Russian destroyers that burn everything to death have not even been been touched. Comparison of the 3 most relevant stats for Tiers 9-10 (11 ships in each tier) for the destroyers over a relevant time period: Tier 10: -Shimakaze is 10th in W/R, and last in both Damage and EXP. -Gearing is 6th in W/R and EXP, and 10th in damage. -Khabarovsk is 1st in W/R, 2nd in EXP, and 8th in Damage. And while that damage ranking sounds unimpressive, it's still causing an average of over 17,000 more damage than Gearing, and nearly 20,000 more damage than Shimakaze. Meanwhile, that W/R is over 5% higher than Gearing, and nearly 7% higher than Shimakaze. This disparity is somehow not seen as a loving problem. Tier 9: -Kagero is 10th in W/R and EXP, and last in damage. The ship sitting at last in W/R and EXP, Essex, at least manages one good stat - sitting at 2nd in damage. -Fletcher is 4th in W/R and EXP, and 9th in damage. -Udaloi is 1st in EXP, 2nd in W/R, and 8th in damage. Note that the 1 place difference in damage between Fletcher and Udaloi still represents an 8,000 average damage difference, as there's simply a huge gap in-between the bottom 3 ships and everything else. Not doing Tier 8, but will note that the Tashkent is once again the highest ranked destroyer in damage. IJN destroyers have always been sold by WG as the torpedo specialist boats, good at dealing damage to larger ships, while getting hunted by US destroyers in turn, and Russian ones good at harassment and capping. Ergo, they should be the destroyers with the HIGHEST average damage, since they're in theory doing large amounts of damage to cruisers and battleships. EXP should be roughly the same still, since that's awarded based on percentage of damage done to ships - that US destroyer that kills an IJN one is gaining roughly the same amount as the IJN one gained for killing a battleship, along with being better at capping. That IJN destroyers are currently literally at the bottom of the tier in damage should be a massive red flag that they need buffs, but no - let's just keep nerfing torpedoes, especially IJN ones, into the ground due to retards.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:26
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Massive volley of long range fast torps are terrible for the high tier meta that already promote camping way too much. Don't expect high tier destroyer to be buffed to pre-nerf cancer shimakaze level.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:36
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No question that Kagero and Shimakaze need a buff, possibly to torpedo reload since that is their alleged specialty, but I would contend that the Fubuki is very competitive. The Benson is IMO the best T8 DDs no matter what the stats say. But the Tashkent and Fubuki are both close. I also think Fletcher and Gearing are fine. T8 is probably the best balanced tier in the game. The 3 BBs are close, the CA's are close (exlcuding the 2 obviously superior Premiums), the DDs are close....the CVs could use some work though.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:40
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kaesarsosei posted:No question that Kagero and Shimakaze need a buff, possibly to torpedo reload since that is their alleged specialty, but I would contend that the Fubuki is very competitive. The Benson is IMO the best T8 DDs no matter what the stats say. But the Tashkent and Fubuki are both close. I also think Fletcher and Gearing are fine. Reload speed isn't the issue, it's the ludicrous spotting distances on IJN torpedoes, combined with permanent spotting if anything(including planes) enters that radius. To give the primary example, the Type 93 has a 20 km range, 62 kt speed, and an absolutely insane 2.5 km spotting distance. To put this in context, Gearing's torpedoes have 16.5 km range, 66 kt speed, and a spotting distance of 1.4 km. Factoring in Torpedo Acceleration, and you have a torpedo that's actually shorter-ranged than the US one (assuming they didn't also take TA), a single kt faster (again assuming the US captain didn't take TA to push its speed up to 71 kt) and seen 1.1 km before the US one, which is an incredible amount of extra reaction time. edit: Shima is basically forced to research and use its second set of torpedoes, which have 12 km range, in order to get down to a less lovely 1.9 km spotting distance - still far worse than its supposedly non-torpedo focused counterpart. Kagero needs to either stick with its default 10 km ones, or the dangerously short-ranged 8 km ones. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 16:59
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El Disco posted:Stop teasing us. I'm not teasing, I'm just saying I didn't have to pay any real world money for my Warspite (it was a Queen Elizabeth!) and that it's a fantastic ship to play. The King George and the Nelson are good too! The only cost is the terrible wait times.
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Aug 4, 2016 17:09
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The Kagero got hatefucked by the torp nerfs. Also, don't say buffing torpedoes will encourage high tier camping. Nerfing them didn't stop it. You need a better solution, and guess what it is? Kill the Zao's stealth firing, stop the Yamato from overmatching angled armor so easily, and buff the other CAs. Also, cutting down on some of the range creep high tier ships have will force them closer together. Repair costs, ridiculously damaging citadel hits, stealth firing, and enormous range makes T10 so awful. Hazdoc fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 21:18
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Zao and Moskva are basically neck and neck in their stats - and accomplish it differently. Simply nerfing stealth firing will only result in Zao dropping like a stone in the rankings, while leaving Moskva to then overperform all 3 of its competitors, rather than only 2. And the lack of Yamato's shells has hardly stopped huge numbers of battleships in the lower tiers from camping in order to do worthless extreme-range sniping - just made it less effective. In blunter terms, the ships are the exact same across all the servers, and apparently neither the Russian or Asian servers have the camping issue to anywhere near the same extent (though apparently the Euro server is even worse?). It's mainly due to the players on said server, and the way they play.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:35
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NTRabbit posted:If by functional DD tree you mean American destroyers, then yes. There's a lot of ships you can fault for problems, but the Kiev is not one of them. Even the currently-nerfed Kiev is still a great boat. You should eat Bensons for breakfast at your ideal range without them landing a single hit. If you let a Benson engage within 7km of you or you let one hit you outside of 7km, that's your own WASD/alpha and/or map tactical awareness fault. kaesarsosei posted:No question that Kagero and Shimakaze need a buff, possibly to torpedo reload since that is their alleged specialty, but I would contend that the Fubuki is very competitive. The Benson is IMO the best T8 DDs no matter what the stats say. But the Tashkent and Fubuki are both close. I also think Fletcher and Gearing are fine. I agree that the IJN DDs need a significant buff, especially to torpedo concealment, and definitely agree that the Benson is the best t8 DD. I wouldn't agree that T8 is the most balanced tier in the game - the CAs are all underpowered compared to their tier brethren. Mogami is mediocre, Chapayev is mediocre, New Orleans is mediocre (exception: AntonioHandsome). The Atago and Kutuzov are exempt here, also the Atago still costs around 50 USD 
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Aug 4, 2016 21:44
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Pacra posted:There's a lot of ships you can fault for problems, but the Kiev is not one of them. Even the currently-nerfed Kiev is still a great boat. You should eat Bensons for breakfast at your ideal range without them landing a single hit. If you let a Benson engage within 7km of you or you let one hit you outside of 7km, that's your own WASD/alpha and/or map tactical awareness fault. It was near the end of the battle, and it was near our cap zone. I was the only one prepared or positioned to spot it, and it had to be done. Losing both sets of forward guns in single hits twice in a row is what made the difference, and I'm hoping that was a one off. I was faulting the Russian line as a whole, as so far the Ognevoi has been the only really good one (Derzki is fun but goofy), and people bitch about the ones after the Kiev, whereas the US get Clemson, Benson, and Fletcher, and the worst it gets is feeling just ok about Farragut/Mahan. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 21:48
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I'm wondering if the snipefest leads to situations where BBs will sooner fire on full health BB at around 13km than obliterate a cruiser that somehow decided <=10km distance to a BB is a good place to be. When all you do is trying to snipe at 20km realiably hitting a cruiser is more up to luck than skill so maybe they just think that they won't hit the cruiser anyway instead of killing it.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:57
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Junkozeyne posted:I'm wondering if the snipefest leads to situations where BBs will sooner fire on full health BB at around 13km than obliterate a cruiser that somehow decided <=10km distance to a BB is a good place to be. When all you do is trying to snipe at 20km realiably hitting a cruiser is more up to luck than skill so maybe they just think that they won't hit the cruiser anyway instead of killing it. I haven't seen that scenario play out specifically, but I have seen many a scenario where an enemy DD is spotted closest to you team, but all the cruisers decide that sniping 16km away at a battleship or cruiser is a better idea than supporting your DD(s) that spotted the enemy DD.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:07
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With DDs, you can't really use the crosshairs to lead accurately, so bads probably have a much harder time hitting them. I generally have to aim twice as far as the reticle says. I usually end up going off of instinct, which works at 5-7KM, but not much more. And I definitely can't target individual sections. Maybe that will change once I have more than 150 games.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:19
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NTRabbit posted:It was near the end of the battle, and it was near our cap zone. I was the only one prepared or positioned to spot it, and it had to be done. Losing both sets of forward guns in single hits twice in a row is what made the difference, and I'm hoping that was a one off. The majority of Russian DDs are very good. Before the kiev nerf and stealth firing nerf, they were quite the stalinium ships. Good Russian DDs: T3 Derzki (good) T4 Izyaslav (good) T5 Gnevny (very good) T7 Kiev (excellent) T9 Udaloi (excellent, OP) T10 Khabarovsk (excellent, OP) Mediocre Russian DDs: T2 Storozhevoi (lol) T6 Ognevoi T8 Tashkent
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Aug 5, 2016 00:20
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NTRabbit posted:I was faulting the Russian line as a whole, as so far the Ognevoi has been the only really good one (Derzki is fun but goofy), and people bitch about the ones after the Kiev, whereas the US get Clemson, Benson, and Fletcher, and the worst it gets is feeling just ok about Farragut/Mahan. I thought the Izyaslav was a good boat, and the Gnevny is also good once you learn to use it as a little rear end in a top hat harasser.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:25
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Izyaslav is a real solid competitor to the Clemson. The Clemson's got a distressingly short range these days, and the Izyaslav has only one less barrel in return for a noticeably faster reload. The Clemson has one more triple torp tube but has a longer reload, and split launchers.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:34
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I'm pink because another Clemson decided that since I waited for him to dump his port torpedoes, he would drive into my starboard ones. Thanks dipshit.
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Aug 5, 2016 02:07
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I didn't really like the gnevny honestly. It suffered the same problem I have with the gremy. Turret traverse is dangerously bad. You can't readily bob and weave while keeping your guns on target to shoot back. Also, I took my atlanta out for a spin after having shelved it for awhile:  That was my second game though. First game was a win as well, but I did all of 2k damage or something retarded because I got citadeled by a colorado shortly after the start of the game. Also, have another atsf atlanta game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GptB8vCCX-w I love his reaction to the fuso. Because that would be me as well. I keep finding the teams that seem to be ok with capturing just one point and then spend the rest of the match shooting the enemy ships unaware and uncaring the cap points are going the wrong way.
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Aug 5, 2016 02:18
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Pacra posted:Mediocre Russian DDs: you take that back BRO
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Aug 5, 2016 03:19
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Mans posted:lol if you think that wouldn't sell like crazy in the western servers Don't get me wrong, I wanted them to sell the skin for gold when I heard about it, but not enough to pay over $500 for it. E: Wait, if I'm in PANSY in WoT, can I not join SEAMN? That's loving stupid. 22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 03:34
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Hazdoc posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ofGbJSiCk "We almost done it." - dead guy Typical WG game.  22 Eargesplitten posted:Don't get me wrong, I wanted them to sell the skin for gold when I heard about it, but not enough to pay over $500 for it. Someone ripped the skin and made it generally available for download. Granted, it makes *all* Type 59s look like 59Gs, but it's just gaudy enough to be nice-looking.
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Aug 5, 2016 04:06
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Someone ripped the skin and made it generally available for download. Granted, it makes *all* Type 59s look like 59Gs, but it's just gaudy enough to be nice-looking. There's no point if I don't get to say "Gold tank, gold ammo, gold camo."
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Aug 5, 2016 05:13
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Someone should start the rumor that TheMittani.com has brokered a ~sekret~ deal to revitalize the NA WoT server's decline by secretly gifting goons with premiums that earn double the credits, in the hopes that we'll all goonrush their servers and inflate their subscriber/player numbers.
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Aug 5, 2016 05:20
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That would require going on the forums or playing the game. Just after I said I hated playing BBs because you have to plan out your movements 2 minutes in advance, I get my best game since I came back in the Wyoming. Two battleships focused on a cruiser farther up while showing me their broadsides, so I ended up killing both of them. I had tunnel visioned, though, so I didn't notice an Omaha coming up on me until he was 7-8km away. I turned towards where I expected his torps to come from and managed to dodge them. Then his course led him straight into my broadside right as all of my guns came up. Unfortunately, after that I got ganked by two spreads from a Kamikaze R hiding behind an island. I had spent my repair party when I probably shouldn't have, and it was at 3 seconds to refresh when my ship finally sank from the flooding. Does the Myogi just suck? I feel like it handles worse and has worse guns than the Wyoming. The only thing it really has is an extra couple of km on its firing range.
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Aug 5, 2016 05:37
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Does the Myogi just suck? I feel like it handles worse and has worse guns than the Wyoming. The only thing it really has is an extra couple of km on its firing range. Yes. IIRC the tier 3 and 4 battleships deliberately suck to make sure the ships have the "right" ratio of players.
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Aug 5, 2016 05:47
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wdarkk posted:Yes. IIRC the tier 3 and 4 battleships deliberately suck to make sure the ships have the "right" ratio of players. Also the tier 2 battleship.
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Aug 5, 2016 05:52
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wdarkk posted:Yes. IIRC the tier 3 and 4 battleships deliberately suck to make sure the ships have the "right" ratio of players. Because nothing says "please play our game and give us money" like putting the WORST part of the grind at the beginning. Classic WG. It works wonders in WoT too, its why they're flooded with new players constantly. YEAAAAARGH
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Aug 5, 2016 05:53
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Had a fun game tonight where I accidentally torped a friendly. I was in a Tenryu trying to climb the Japanese tree. I had already gotten 1 kill on a dumb South Carolina and was playing pretty well when I noticed a Karlsruhe coming around an island so I laid down some torps should he continue. An ally ran into them. Boy chat was loving hilarious. I was told very matter of factly that I needed to learn to play the game - he says as I murdered a Svietlana. Some other pubbie took up his cause begging the other team to report me for being a TKer. I kept playing while mocking them, preventing the sole remaining ship on the enemy team from capping us out and winning and then torping it but I was also told that if I hadn't intentionally killed that destroyer that the team wouldn't have needed me and everything would have been okay. lmao I think the guy I torped actually left almost right away and it was some guy taking up his cause for the rest of the game. It was fantastic. wdarkk posted:Yes. IIRC the tier 3 and 4 battleships deliberately suck to make sure the ships have the "right" ratio of players. Hazdoc posted:Because nothing says "please play our game and give us money" like putting the WORST part of the grind at the beginning. I didn't find the Wyoming to be all that bad. The South Carolina is god awful though. It's just a torp magnet for early Japanese destroyers because its range is like 10km. In any case, if you can stick through the ~15 battles you'll need to get the Wyoming it's all good from there. The New York is great so once you hit tier 5 American BBs it's a breeze. I can't speak for the Japanese tho. Ice Fist fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 06:08
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I haven't bothered to grind into any BB tree yet, but I'd originally put a ton of flags on the T3 BBs, then realized it was a waste. I could reliably get out of both the T3 and T4 ships in a leisurely weekend's worth of battles with just three day's worth of premium and my Alpha flag.
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Aug 5, 2016 06:15
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Ice Fist posted:I didn't find the Wyoming to be all that bad. The South Carolina is god awful though. It's just a torp magnet for early Japanese destroyers because its range is like 10km. In any case, if you can stick through the ~15 battles you'll need to get the Wyoming it's all good from there. The New York is great so once you hit tier 5 American BBs it's a breeze. I can't speak for the Japanese tho. Starting at tier 5 the Japanese BBs are pretty good (possible exception: Izumo). I'm debating if I want to free xp past the german T4 battleship when that tree comes out (definitely the tier 3).
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Aug 5, 2016 06:18
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Fortunately, getting out of the T3 South Carolina and T3-4 Kawachi and Myogi is fairly fast. But even spending 3-4 games in those boats without understanding that THIS IS NOT WHAT BBS ARE ACTUALLY ABOUT really turns people off the game. I've had a friend give up on BBs entirely only to come back around after playing IJN CAs to T9. I can really see the non-spergs just quit completely. This sort of nonsense is what caused me to drop World of Tanks... 3 times.
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Aug 5, 2016 06:23
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wdarkk posted:Yes. IIRC the tier 3 and 4 battleships deliberately suck to make sure the ships have the "right" ratio of players. Does the Wyoming suck? I guess I've realized that my main complaints are actually coming from the Myogi. The Wyoming seems decent, at least. Way better than the South Carolina and/or Kawachi.
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Aug 5, 2016 06:27
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Does the Wyoming suck? I guess I've realized that my main complaints are actually coming from the Myogi. The Wyoming seems decent, at least. Way better than the South Carolina and/or Kawachi. The Wyoming is great unless you have to deal with carriers. It's got enough gun to shotgun cruisers and destroyers and it can survive long enough to do a ton of damage. It's slow and a torp magnet for TBs, though. And stay away from islands because the Clemson is terrifying under 4km. I didn't think the Myogi was that awful, though I only played in it for ~15 matches or so. It's fast enough to get to where it needs to be.
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Aug 5, 2016 06:49
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Not to mention the fact that any T3 BB is a priority target since you're worth the same amount of points as a T5, and the sooner you can put a point gulf between you and the other team, the sooner they shut down and go pants-on-head retarded in a bid to salvage what they can credit and xp-wise on the "guaranteed loss."
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Aug 5, 2016 06:56
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I'm idly going up the Russian tree, because why not. I see the Bogatyr's description and armament seems pretty similar to the St. Louis, is it? And is there a point to the 130mm guns? It seems like they shoot slower for less damage, but if I'm wrong on that it seems like a good candidate for fire training / advanced fire training like a pre-nerf St. Louis.
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Aug 5, 2016 07:21
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AFT and DE on a bogatyr is a pyromaniac BB sniper's dream. It's a great boat set up that way.
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Aug 5, 2016 07:39
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Pacra posted:The majority of Russian DDs are very good. Before the kiev nerf and stealth firing nerf, they were quite the stalinium ships. The Storozhevoi is hardly around long enough for an opinion, the Derzki is fun, the Izyaslav is poo poo, the Gnevny is poo poo, the Ognevoi is great and best in tier.
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Aug 5, 2016 08:13
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God drat the stock Mogami is insanely good. Got enough exp for the B hull in my first four games while running the +100% exp camo.
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Aug 5, 2016 08:14
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Got into a 2 CV game in my Independence and my team's T7 CV was a Ranger while theirs was a Hiryu. He was good enough, and us bad enough, to basically completely shut us both down and I got like 1.5k damage. Feels bad mang 
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Aug 5, 2016 08:17
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Pacra posted:AFT and DE on a bogatyr is a pyromaniac BB sniper's dream. It's a great boat set up that way. I think I'm going to have to grind up the XP to get to it, then. I think I've got something like 4500 to go. Fire Training, Expert Marksman, AFT, Demolitions Expert, then? ~8 guns on either side shooting every 9 seconds at 13.6km with a 12% chance of fire per shot at T3? Yeah, I can get behind that. Sadly that's not going to translate well to the Diana if I put the commander back in there sometimes, but oh well. It's going to take forever to get all the points for that. 14 points, if I'm thinking about it right.
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Aug 5, 2016 08:41
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ghetto wormhole posted:God drat the stock Mogami is insanely good. Got enough exp for the B hull in my first four games while running the +100% exp camo. Stock Gun (155mm) Mogami is still excellent... if you never have to turn your guns. Unfortunately, being at T8, if you are against enemies that can clank 2 brain cells together and they see you're packing 155mm guns, they will assuredly load AP and aim for citadel hits. If you wiggle to avoid getting hit, you're also no longer on target. 155mm Mogami is a glass cannon, like the Pepsicola, except instead of taking citadel hits from every angle, you just can't bring your guns to bear without exposing yourself to great risk... or simply not ever going broadside, which is also a problem. I really wish WG would just address the Mogami's 155mm guns soon. 203mm is boring, as I already have the Atago which does it better and a Myoko which is basically the same thing... I want the gimmicky 155mm guns for melting DDs!
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Aug 5, 2016 08:44
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