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Microplastics
Jul 6, 2007

:discourse:
It's what's for dinner.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The UK's world wonder should be a gigantic cup of tea. Someone needs to build it in reality so it can be in Civ7.

As a Brit, I am furious to learn that the title of world's biggest cup of tea belongs to some Sri Lankan

But it's ok we'll send over a couple of frigates and show them savages what's what :britain:

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Peas and Rice
Jul 14, 2004

Honor and profit.

Xelkelvos posted:

Also, I'm curious as to who the Modern Era Great Prophets are

L Ron Hubbard

E: the UK also has Stonehenge which is a legit wonder.

The Human Crouton
Sep 20, 2002

JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

As a Brit, I am furious to learn that the title of world's biggest cup of tea belongs to some Sri Lankan

But it's ok we'll send over a couple of frigates and show them savages what's what :britain:

I miss the good old days. Life is so complicated now.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012

Peas and Rice posted:

L Ron Hubbard

E: the UK also has Stonehenge which is a legit wonder.

I didn't want to say that one myself, but there's always Joseph Smith for Industrial Era and Jerry Falwell and Sun Myung Moon for Modern Era

Peas and Rice
Jul 14, 2004

Honor and profit.
Comedy option: Osama Bin Laden :jihad:

Red Bones
Aug 9, 2012

"I think he's a bad enough person to stay ghost through his sheer love of child-killing."

If you really wanted to make civ weird and board gamey I think it'd be pretty fun to just have a list of 30 diverse win conditions and give everyone two random ones at the start, just to make everyone play toward entirely different goals. I've thought for a while that "own every natural wonder" would be a pretty fun victory, just for making you expand in a really weird, difficult way. Giving history a set of arbitrary victory conditions is absurd anyway, why not have fun with it.

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

RagnarokAngel posted:

Hexes are superior my friend. With squares you have to do some weird 1-2-1 poo poo on the diagonals because otherwise it's the superior movement option, effectively giving less choice.

Hexes are the one thing civ 5 does objectively better.

I would possibly agree except for how my biggest memories of civ 5 is never being able to move anywhere coz another unit was already there.. I say "gently caress the hex"

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

echinopsis posted:

I would possibly agree except for how my biggest memories of civ 5 is never being able to move anywhere coz another unit was already there.. I say "gently caress the hex"

Thing is, you can do "many units per tile" on a hex map.

I still reckon one unit per tile could be fixed if they made the map bigger and made units faster - the main problem with it is the lack of space on the map for you to put units in.

Microplastics
Jul 6, 2007

:discourse:
It's what's for dinner.

echinopsis posted:

I would possibly agree except for how my biggest memories of civ 5 is never being able to move anywhere coz another unit was already there.. I say "gently caress the hex"

What are you talking about, there's plenty of room

Kassad
Nov 12, 2005

It's about time.
It has nothing to do with hexes, anyway. You'd get the same problem in Civ 4 if it had 1UPT.

Jump King
Aug 10, 2011

JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

What are you talking about, there's plenty of room



A little disingenuous to use pics from a game with mods specifically to promote this type of behaviour

Microplastics
Jul 6, 2007

:discourse:
It's what's for dinner.
I wasn't trying to make a point, I just find the screenshot amusing and this was a good excuse to post it

I think echinopsis is just pulling our leg anyway

PoizenJam
Dec 2, 2006

Damn!!!
It's PoizenJam!!!

Gort posted:

Thing is, you can do "many units per tile" on a hex map.

I still reckon one unit per tile could be fixed if they made the map bigger and made units faster - the main problem with it is the lack of space on the map for you to put units in.

That was my idea for a solution- scale everything up, and make tiles represent smaller individual areas. Give all units increased movement points, and give ranged units a greater range but implement an Advance Wars style firing shadow. Suddenly we have a tactical combat system where melee front line units are necessary to protect range and siege units, and flanking mounted units could get up in the face of ranged units with no fear or retaliation (balancing the fact ranged units can attack without retaliation).

The 'tiles represent less area' would also work well with the unstacked cities and district system now.

GuyUpNorth
Apr 29, 2014

Witty phrases on random basis
Prophet chat: are Jim Jones and Steve Jobs too controversial? Because the former is infamous for his cult and Apple might as well be one.

Red Bones
Aug 9, 2012

"I think he's a bad enough person to stay ghost through his sheer love of child-killing."

JVNO posted:

That was my idea for a solution- scale everything up, and make tiles represent smaller individual areas. Give all units increased movement points, and give ranged units a greater range but implement an Advance Wars style firing shadow. Suddenly we have a tactical combat system where melee front line units are necessary to protect range and siege units, and flanking mounted units could get up in the face of ranged units with no fear or retaliation (balancing the fact ranged units can attack without retaliation).

The 'tiles represent less area' would also work well with the unstacked cities and district system now.

There's technical limitations that would go hand in hand with scaling up the entire game. Like, the map would be twice as big, or three times, etc, if you wanted to increase the scale to an extent that it would ease the congestion issues that come from 1UPT, and that would have ramifications on all kinds of things, both in terms of gameplay (everyone would have twice as many cities, or at least cities that are twice as complex), and on the computing power needed to run the game.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

Red Bones posted:

There's technical limitations that would go hand in hand with scaling up the entire game. Like, the map would be twice as big, or three times, etc, if you wanted to increase the scale to an extent that it would ease the congestion issues that come from 1UPT, and that would have ramifications on all kinds of things, both in terms of gameplay (everyone would have twice as many cities, or at least cities that are twice as complex), and on the computing power needed to run the game.

Rather than twice as many cities, I suspect you'd just make it so cities had twice as much area-of-control, but half as many useful tiles (so half the tiles would have no useful output at all, say). Which is pretty inelegant.

The issue with computing power is legitimate, though, as pathfinding would become much more expensive with a larger map. Not to mention that when you have twice as much room to play in, your inclination will be to throw twice as many units into the fights, which doesn't help things at all!

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Rather than twice as many cities, I suspect you'd just make it so cities had twice as much area-of-control, but half as many useful tiles (so half the tiles would have no useful output at all, say). Which is pretty inelegant.

A slightly more elegant solution would be to have the city grow twice as fast, but each tile has half the output.

ate shit on live tv
Feb 15, 2004

by Azathoth

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The AI has, as far as I'm aware, never been all that competent at winning Civ. It's just that in Civ5 it roleplayed being an entity that cared about winning, and that pissed people off. I'll agree that people often don't know what they want, but if Firaxis continued in Civ6 to make the AIs transparently try to stop you from winning, they'd have a player revolt on their hands. The majority of players want some kind of alt-history sim game, not a board game.

Ugh.

Baronjutter posted:

As someone who totally ignores victory conditions and just enjoys playing and seeing what narratives form I just want the AI to behave like other countries. I wish we were much more beholden to our people or internal groups and their opinions and the direction we took out countries was much more based on that rather than some pre-planned optimal victory strategy. Like going to war with a long time ally would get your people extremely upset, betraying a country you have rich trade ties with would see your merchant/capital class potentially revolt. I guess I'd just love to see more eu4/paradox style diplomacy and internal politics where everyone is guided by their own politics and goals rather than meta-game level "victory conditions".

But the AI should absolutely realize if anyone is getting too powerful or too ahead score wise. In EU4 there's a whole aggressive expansion and coalition system where if you start to become powerful all the countries near you will make a big anti-you alliance. It's a great way of stopping snow-balling victories, and it's a great way as a player to work together with the AI to unseat another AI that's too far ahead.

I was just playing a CivV game where the dutch had some ridiculous run-away lead after conquering a neighbour early on. Me and everyone else were sitting around 500 score while they had 800. Then they went and declared war on another weaker neighbour while everyone else sat around. Then they were sitting at 1000 while everyone else was 500, yet there were lots of us bordering him. In EU4 every single player near him would have been in an anti-dutch coalition which would have been instantly triggered the moment he attacked someone, or the moment the coalition decided it was time to take him down a peg. I tried to form an alliance like this myself but none of the idiots wanted to go to war against the dutch with me.

At the same time you can be a huge powerful country and people won't hate you because of it, only if you're a threat/competition. Other great powers will be competitive/scared of you, but smaller countries often end up deciding just being friends is the best strategy, and if you have a good reputation for not eating your friends this can be quite useful, allowing you to peacefully vassalize and even annex smaller powers.
Then play paradox games? The thing I hate about paradox games is that you can't actually "win." The thing I like about Civ is that you can, indeed that is the actual point of the game.

Darkrenown posted:

Speaking of Wonders, I realise this is a rather spergy complaint, but it bothers me that Stonehenge has to be built next to a source of stone when one of the wondrous things about the real Stonehenge is that it is explicitly not near a source of stone and exactly how the huge stones were moved hundreds of miles to build it is still unknown.

Agree with this.

Red Bones posted:

If you really wanted to make civ weird and board gamey I think it'd be pretty fun to just have a list of 30 diverse win conditions and give everyone two random ones at the start, just to make everyone play toward entirely different goals. I've thought for a while that "own every natural wonder" would be a pretty fun victory, just for making you expand in a really weird, difficult way. Giving history a set of arbitrary victory conditions is absurd anyway, why not have fun with it.

This would also be a really great idea. But of course you should always be able to conquer everyone.

ate shit on live tv fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Aug 8, 2016

ate shit on live tv
Feb 15, 2004

by Azathoth
My biggest complaint in CivV was the 1upt thing. It would be better if you could multi select units and order them to "muster." Then you could take that stack (that could get bigger with technology advances) and transport them easily to the front lines. The caveat would be the units couldn't attack directly out of the stack, they'd have to "deploy," then next turn they could attack. While in a stack the they'd have heavy defensive disadvantages so that fast units like Cavalry could raid your "stack" of units, preventing you from deploying anymore of them. Essentially cutting off your supply lines.

Obviously such a system would require tweaking, like maybe you could only "muster" in your own territory, etc. But either way, managing late game armies was lovely and was the main thing that made me stop playing CivV.

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth
1UPT was just a mess in so many ways. It caused traffic jams, it totally gimped the AI in warfare, it was annoying to manage, and it enabled that ridiculous exploit where you could detect enemy/barbarian units in the fog of war by spamming your cursor everywhere.


Maybe it could work in different circumstances but they didn't enable said circumstances at all.

Rad Russian
Aug 15, 2007

Soviet Power Supreme!

Powercrazy posted:

Obviously such a system would require tweaking, like maybe you could only "muster" in your own territory, etc. But either way, managing late game armies was lovely and was the main thing that made me stop playing CivV.

Such a system would not work only because, again, AI will get stuck in mustered states all the time and get decimated by the player. The issue with 1UPT is not the limitation but that fact that the AI is terrible at playing it. The dev team did not really dedicate a lot of resources to AI because that's expensive and the vast majority of casual Civ players wouldn't care. I doubt that's gonna change much with Civ VI but I hope they at least spend some time tweaking the tactics for it.

I think the the annoying things of getting stuck in trying to pass narrow terrain can be easily fixed by allowing units to shuffle places but I think the AI will also get confused with that.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
I think the devs' #1 priority regarding AI should be to make it as moddable as possible. Let the modscene try to make a good AI; they can focus on making an acceptable AI and providing the content and framework that the modders can build on. Civ5 wasn't readily moddable except in fairly basic ways. Civ6 will, hopefully, be much better about that.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012

GuyUpNorth posted:

Prophet chat: are Jim Jones and Steve Jobs too controversial? Because the former is infamous for his cult and Apple might as well be one.

Jim Jones is 100% controversial. Jobs is probably a Great Engineer.

Aerdan
Apr 14, 2012

Not Dennis NEDry
Honestly, a lot of it is that the AI is poo poo at prioritizing unit movements. You see this with their inability to lay down improvements, both as enemy civs and as the 'automated worker' feature. You also see this with their scouting; it's not methodical in the least; units just randomly change direction every few turns. That incapacity also leads to their incompetent shuffling about while invading.

(Sidenote: unit-swapping is actually doable, just order a unit to move into the same tile as another unit, provided both have moves remaining.)

Prism
Dec 22, 2007

yospos

Xelkelvos posted:

I'd support this.

Also, I'm curious as to who the Modern Era Great Prophets are

Joseph Smith is probably a little early for modern, but only a little.

Rad Russian
Aug 15, 2007

Soviet Power Supreme!

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I think the devs' #1 priority regarding AI should be to make it as moddable as possible. Let the modscene try to make a good AI; they can focus on making an acceptable AI and providing the content and framework that the modders can build on. Civ5 wasn't readily moddable except in fairly basic ways. Civ6 will, hopefully, be much better about that.

People have been asking Total War devs to make battle AI moddable for 12 years now, and it still hasn't happened. Just too much effort for them for something that less than 1% of the player base will use (according to their figures of how many people use any mods at all in their games). Not holding my breath for Civ.

I just hope they improve it significantly here, given that all the base systems are the same for it.

Rad Russian fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Aug 8, 2016

Peas and Rice
Jul 14, 2004

Honor and profit.

Powercrazy posted:

Then play paradox games? The thing I hate about paradox games is that you can't actually "win." The thing I like about Civ is that you can, indeed that is the actual point of the game.

I want something in between - Rome and Medieval 2 Total War were great at balancing "spread across the map and recreate the Roman empire" with "build every city to be perfect" while still (generally) keeping the battles challenging. My biggest complaint about Civ 5 is if I want to play a wide, "perfect city" game, I need to set the difficulty to King or Prince to not be completely hamstrung by happiness, because I want to see my color cover the entire gigantic map. But once I get going, I'm usually so far ahead of the AI by technology and economy I can buy any of my advanced units and simply crush them, which isn't nearly as fun. But if I play on higher difficulties, I can't go wide at all.

(I haven't tried playing on a higher difficulty and just disabling happiness in the RAS though).


Xelkelvos posted:

Jim Jones is 100% controversial. Jobs is probably a Great Engineer.

I could swear I've had Jobs as both an Engineer and a Merchant.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Peas and Rice posted:

I could swear I've had Jobs as both an Engineer and a Merchant.

Not unless it was a mod. According to the wiki:

Great Engineers posted:

Archimedes
Alexander Graham Bell
Isambard Kingdom Brunel
Karl Benz
Henry Bessemer
Bi Sheng
Cai Lun
Charles Augustin de Coulomb
Louis Daguerre
Gottlieb Daimler
Charles Stark Draper
George Eastman
Thomas Edison
Alexandre Gustave Eiffel
Henry Ford
Benjamin Franklin
Robert Goddard
George Washington Goethals
Heron
Imhotep
Joseph Marie Jacquard
Ferdinand de Lesseps
Guglielmo Marconi
William Morton
Nikolaus August Otto
Blaise Pascal
Norbert Rillieux
John Roebling
Wilhelm Schickard
Mimar Sinan
Nain Singh
Nikola Tesla
James Watt
Frank Lloyd Wright
Orville Wright
Wilbur Wright
Zhang Heng

Great Merchants posted:

Aretas III
Andrew Carnegie
Coco Chanel
Marcus Licinius Crassus
Anthony van Diemen
Jakob Fugger
Harkuf
Edward Harriman
Milton S. Hershey
Ibn Battuta
Steve Jobs
John Maynard Keynes
Sir James Lancaster
Sir Alexander Mackenzie
Giovanni de Medici
John Stuart Mill
Henri Nestlé
John D. Rockefeller
Sir Thomas Roe
Shah Jahan
Adam Smith
Levi Strauss
Raja Todar Mal
Thomas Twining
Cornelius Vanderbilt
Richard Whittington
Wang Anshi
Zhang Qian

Takkaryx
Oct 17, 2007

Bunnies (very useful) Scientific Facts: Bunnies never close doors
Off the top of my head Martin Luther King Jr., Desmond Tutu, Mother Teresa, and John Paul II could all be good modern/atomic age great prophets.

Lowen
Mar 16, 2007

Adorable.

Powercrazy posted:

Ugh.

Then play paradox games? The thing I hate about paradox games is that you can't actually "win." The thing I like about Civ is that you can, indeed that is the actual point of the game.

There are a huge number of differences between Paradox games and Civ though, it's not just that Paradox games tend to be more narrative while Civ tends to focus more on competition. The map and units are totally different for example, and Civ games are very discretely turn based while Paradox games are more continuously real time. Maybe those sound like small differences, but they make the games feel totally different in my opinion, and I prefer the feeling of Civilization.

Civilization 6/7/8/whatever could rip off be inspired by a ton of Paradox stuff and still definitely be a Civilization game. It's not at all a case of "well if you want Paradox stuff then play Paradox games". Leaving narration/vs competition vs the AI aside, I want Civilization games to get diplomacy that doesn't suck, and Paradox games are a good thing to look at for that.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon

Cythereal posted:

Not unless it was a mod. According to the wiki:

No, I'm certain I've also seen him as a great engineer. He was only added with Brave New World. The wiki must be outdated, or maybe he was patched out later on.

Combed Thunderclap
Jan 4, 2011



Takkaryx posted:

Off the top of my head Martin Luther King Jr., Desmond Tutu, Mother Teresa, and John Paul II could all be good modern/atomic age great prophets.

My religion of Social Justice will reign supreme :getin:

Ice Fist
Jun 20, 2012

^^ Please send feedback to beefstache911@hotmail.com, this is not a joke that 'stache is the real deal. Serious assessments only. ^^

Combed Thunderclap posted:

My religion of Social Justice will reign supreme :getin:

Nah man, MLK is gunna be a general and lead his Social Justice warriors to a Civ world domination victory

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Howell would be a good choice for a modern great prophet.

e: Bob Marley as both a great prophet and great musician, where's my check Firaxis

Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Aug 8, 2016

Kassad
Nov 12, 2005

It's about time.
The Dalai Lama might be a modern great prophet. Unless they want to sell the game in China, I guess.

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

I wasn't trying to make a point, I just find the screenshot amusing and this was a good excuse to post it

I think echinopsis is just pulling our leg anyway

I don't hate hex that much but 1UPT and hex is significantly worse than whatever we used to have. Just my experience though :)

Teron D Amun
Oct 9, 2010

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

I hope there's an achievement for occupying that tile with a German unit

"gain 7 times the income if owner of the occupying unit is Germany"

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep
First I hated 1UPT in Civ 5, then I got used to it. And when you get used to it, you realize how bad the AI is at playing it and combat becomes very easy

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

Baronjutter posted:

As someone who totally ignores victory conditions and just enjoys playing and seeing what narratives form I just want the AI to behave like other countries. I wish we were much more beholden to our people or internal groups and their opinions and the direction we took out countries was much more based on that rather than some pre-planned optimal victory strategy. Like going to war with a long time ally would get your people extremely upset, betraying a country you have rich trade ties with would see your merchant/capital class potentially revolt. I guess I'd just love to see more eu4/paradox style diplomacy and internal politics where everyone is guided by their own politics and goals rather than meta-game level "victory conditions".

Interestingly, this kind of thing was implemented very rudimentarily in the old turn-based space strategy game Imperium from the early 90s: The player (as the emperor of his realm), is forced to go through regular elections every 50 turns. If you do too many things to upset your people, you can actually lose and be replaced by one of your underlings.

This of course means immediate game over, no Paradox-style shenanigans. (As I said, very rudimentary.)

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TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

Libluini posted:

Interestingly, this kind of thing was implemented very rudimentarily in the old turn-based space strategy game Imperium from the early 90s: The player (as the emperor of his realm), is forced to go through regular elections every 50 turns. If you do too many things to upset your people, you can actually lose and be replaced by one of your underlings.

This of course means immediate game over, no Paradox-style shenanigans. (As I said, very rudimentary.)

Civ4 has some elements of this as well, mostly in that cities get pissed (extra unhappiness) if you do certain things diplomatically, like stab an ally in the back or ignore a UN declaration. And of course they also get war weariness as wars continue and especially if they go poorly.

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