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mind the walrus posted:I agree with that to a point. I do like the idea of making it this romantic "lost place" that was only really lost because they were too comfortable to take warning signs seriously. Yeah but when you put all this unrelatable rubbish all over his background and make it a giant portion of the story, it really takes the character into some lovely territory. IMO the original Jewish immigrant orphan Superman fresh off the boat has so much broader appeal, like Spider-Man or Hulk, rather than all the weird crap DC spun off from it. Granted that would take away like, 10% of their content and characters (Supergirl, Power Girl, Zod, the Phantom Zone, the bottle city, all that extended poo poo) but those things all came at such a terrible cost.
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Aug 8, 2016 04:25
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Frankenstyle posted:Wait. That was actually a thing? Kind-of. Initially Thor is shown as this hippie commune leader with delusions, then later he's shown to actually have serious mojo, but later he's shown to have a tech harness designed by human dudes, but then he's got vision of Loki which turn out to be true... it's a mess really. That's Mark Millar for you. They lifted some poo poo directly for the first Thor though:  Flesh Forge posted:Yeah but when you put all this unrelatable rubbish all over his background and make it a giant portion of the story, it really takes the character into some lovely territory. IMO the original Jewish immigrant orphan Superman fresh off the boat has so much broader appeal, like Spider-Man or Hulk, rather than all the weird crap DC spun off from it. Granted that would take away like, 10% of their content and characters (Supergirl, Power Girl, Zod, the Phantom Zone, the bottle city, all that extended poo poo) but those things all came at such a terrible cost. I agree completely that any movie should skip through the Krypton stuff at breakneck speed. If anything it'd be better for Clark to discover it as a teen/young adult so we only ever see Jor-El et. all in short glimpses. And quit making Jor-El a main loving character I don't care how much you paid Brando 40 years ago. Still it does need to be in there. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 04:26
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Frankenstyle posted:(homeless thor) Yes, in the Ultimates series (the comic reboot of Avengers) Thor was a crazy homeless dude, although still big white and blond e: oh and he was also a rabid environmentalist, which was pretty neat
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Aug 8, 2016 04:26
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mind the walrus posted:Kind-of. Initially Thor is shown as this hippie commune leader with delusions, then later he's shown to actually have serious mojo, but later he's shown to have a tech harness designed by human dudes, but then he's got vision of Loki which turn out to be true... it's a mess really. That's Mark Millar for you. making jor-el be smarter, braver and all around more heroic than superman is a real bad idea
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Aug 8, 2016 04:35
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Glass Joe posted:we already know how that ends Is that supposed to be as funny as it is
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Aug 8, 2016 04:41
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Serious Frolicking posted:making jor-el be smarter, braver and all around more heroic than superman is a real bad idea Even Alan Moore viewed him as a fascist sympathizing old coot, out of touch and ignorant despite his scientific acumen, in "For The Man Who Has Everything". And even Clark's mind filled in those gaps (which, despite respecting him as his biological father, makes me think that he subconsciously viewed him as inferior to Pa Kent). The more Kal-El knows about Krypton, the better. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 04:44
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Just wait till that Krypton prequel show gets the greenlight, all your shittiest fan theories can finally come true!
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Aug 8, 2016 04:53
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Grondoth posted:Is that supposed to be as funny as it is Yeah, Green Lantern is the rear end in a top hat wisecracking comic relief who spends the rest of the movie with his arm in a sling.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:02
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Serious Frolicking posted:making jor-el be smarter, braver and all around more heroic than superman is a real bad idea Young Freud posted:Even Alan Moore viewed him as a fascist sympathizing old coot, out of touch and ignorant despite his scientific acumen, in "For The Man Who Has Everything". And even Clark's mind filled in those gaps (which, despite respecting him as his biological father, makes me think that he subconsciously viewed him as inferior to Pa Kent). The more Kal-El knows about Krypton, the better. This is totally my bias, but I really like the idea of Superman as this story of a kid abandoned by an indolent upper class society only to realize his true potential when raised with strong middle class values. That's why all of his greatest enemies are wannabe masters of the universe with upper class values that fundamentally miss the responsibility that comes with power-- Lex Luthor, Braniac, Zod, Darkseid, Cyborg-Superman, Mongul, even Mr. Mxylsptlk (sic). Superman is the living embodiment of how even the strongest of us can resist corruption and work with others to build a better tomorrow, hence the "Man of Tomorrow" moniker. It's not realistic but it's not supposed to be, it's meant to be inspiring. Krypton is a place Superman should look to with some wistful regret. Like yes he'll always have a part of him that wonders and wishes he could have had a life on Krypton, but deep down he knows it would have been a poo poo life on multiple levels, and thus uses the ideal of Krypton as something to respect, honor, and strive for as one of the last Kryptonians. Which is why Libertarian Kents, Crapworld Krypton, Jor-El the Paladin, and all that MoS and BvS stuff rub me the wrong way. It's not even "real for real's" sake, it's just cynicism. Even then I would be able to get over that if the movie around them was any good. I might hate Spider-Man's organic webshooters but the movie around it is good enough that I don't really care. That's the problem in the end-- it's not the vision, it's the execution. Grondoth posted:Is that supposed to be as funny as it is Actually yes. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 05:03
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MoS was a blur to me, what kind of values did Papa Kent instill in Superman? Let people die so you can stay around and help us with the farm?
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Aug 8, 2016 05:06
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More like "Don't attract attention to yourself. Let literal children die because you don't want attention." /proceeds to make a giant melodramatic show of saving a dog in a tornado Good god that movie sucked.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:09
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even when pa kent risked his life, it was to save his own dog. not a stray child, not someone else's dog, but his own property. then he died to prove a point about... umm... the free market?
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Aug 8, 2016 05:13
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mind the walrus posted:This is totally my bias, but I really like the idea of Superman as this story of a kid abandoned by an indolent upper class society only to realize his true potential when raised with strong middle class values. That's why all of his greatest enemies are wannabe masters of the universe with upper class values that fundamentally miss the responsibility that comes with power-- Lex Luthor, Braniac, Zod, Darkseid, Cyborg-Superman, Mongul, even Mr. Mxylsptlk (sic). Superman is the living embodiment of how even the strongest of us can resist corruption and work with others to build a better tomorrow, hence the "Man of Tomorrow" moniker. It's not realistic but it's not supposed to be, it's meant to be inspiring. This is how I came to understand the idea of Superman, too. Superman was a plea for responsible power, he was beating up mob bosses trying to get protection money and out on the streets fighting riot cops in his first run. The core thing about superman is that he can do anything, but he does the right thing. The idea that he was 'destined to lead the earthlings' and that he 'doesn't owe this world a drat thing' just completely miss what makes the character compelling.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:17
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WhyteRyce posted:MoS was a blur to me, what kind of values did Papa Kent instill in Superman? Let people die so you can stay around and help us with the farm? "Helping ordinary people is wrong" also this one is 100% Zack Snyder "You need to put all you have into the money shot and ignore everything else" not exaggerating, everything that Pa Costner tells him is about how he's destined for greatness and he literally chews his rear end out for saving a bus full of drowning children e: here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HUtzDRMKrc e: and you know what, the rescue itself is really good, one of the very few parts of the film I liked (and I liked it a lot) but then Costner (Snyder's mouthpiece) drops trou and shits all over it Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 05:17
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Since we're talking about Superman, Here's "For the Man who has Everything" It's an adaptation of a classic 80s story by Alan Moore, also the only adaptation of his work he's ever given his seal of approval to. It differs from the original story in that it portrays this ideal hybrid life on Krypton for Superman instead of the vaguely dystopian one of the comic. It's still a great example that Superman's fundamental goodness comes from both the ideal of Krypton he aspires to, the values he was raised with on Earth, and his own innate character, in no particular order. As the villain alludes to Superman is a guy who will metaphorically cut his own arm off to do the right thing. Superman is a guy who is idealistic enough to dream perfection, but not naive enough to buy it wholesale, nor easily corruptible enough to succumb to even the greatest temptation. Between this, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, and All-Star Superman it's honestly jarring that Zach Snyder went so hard in the other direction, to the point where I doubt he even bothered to read any of them. Hell, if anyone on the production staff was savvy they'd at least have given him "What's so funny about truth, justice, and the American way?" that would have shown him how he could have "badass gently caress you" Superman and still come out the other side. People act like Superman is this rigid, impossible character because he's been around so long and so codified, but he's really really not and it's immensely frustrating to see him treated as a nuisance rather than the icon that he is.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:27
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mind the walrus posted:People act like Superman is this rigid, impossible character because he's been around so long and so codified, but he's really really not and it's immensely frustrating to see him treated as a nuisance rather than the icon that he is. I want to sign off on all your post, because it's great, but this part in particular. There are fantastic ways to do Superman, while still making him an optimistic hero, and a good guy. Pathos and complex characterization don't come from frowning and being told how important you are.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:41
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You always hear a lot of hand-wringing about how hard it is do Superman because he's such an icon and "all the stories possible with him have already been told," which isn't true but whatever let's assume it is for the sake of argument. "If you can't do something original, then do something familiar well." Look at Stranger Things. Not one loving frame of that show is true original material, so to speak. But it does the vast majority of those frames so well that no one watching cares. Reframe the classic Superman story in today's world. Give us the Man of Tomorrow that we need today. Any bullshit about how that's too "kiddie" is ironically the most juvenile sentiment of all. gently caress Zach Snyder.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:54
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mind the walrus posted:Since we're talking about Superman, Here's "For the Man who has Everything" just a little warning, there's a really bad malware ad that popped up for me playing this ("urgent chrome update install now")
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Aug 8, 2016 05:57
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Grondoth posted:Is that supposed to be as funny as it is I love how the mechaHarambes just start wailing on him when he's already down
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Aug 8, 2016 06:00
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Flesh Forge posted:"Helping ordinary people is wrong" Yeah this is where the movie lost me. I loved the rescue. It's simple but it nails the right notes and shows you what ought to be a fundamental building block of Clark... and then it's like the movie gets embarrassed of itself and walks back on the previous scene immediately
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Aug 8, 2016 06:02
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Grondoth posted:This is how I came to understand the idea of Superman, too. Superman was a plea for responsible power, he was beating up mob bosses trying to get protection money and out on the streets fighting riot cops in his first run. The core thing about superman is that he can do anything, but he does the right thing. The idea that he was 'destined to lead the earthlings' and that he 'doesn't owe this world a drat thing' just completely miss what makes the character compelling. This is because Libertarians who aren't teenagers are protosociopaths who purge themselves of empathy. The right thing to them is self-serving ends. Flesh Forge posted:This is the worst and most disingenuous defense of MOS, because it's supposed to be an ~adult~ take on Superman but the character is overwhelmingly childish, selfish and petulant. Seeing childish selfishness as Adult is also a libertarian thing. America should really be ashamed of itself for spawning it as an 'ideology' Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 06:06
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He doesn't just save the bus full of kids, he goes back into the water to save the same kid who was picking on him a few minutes before. So perfectly true to the character right there, shame about the everything else in the moviemind the walrus posted:Reframe the classic Superman story in today's world. Give us the Man of Tomorrow that we need today. Any bullshit about how that's too "kiddie" is ironically the most juvenile sentiment of all. gently caress Zach Snyder. This is the worst and most disingenuous defense of MOS, because it's supposed to be an ~adult~ take on Superman but the character is overwhelmingly childish, selfish and petulant.
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Aug 8, 2016 06:06
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:This is because Libertarians who aren't teenagers are protosociopaths who purge themselves of empathy. The right thing to them is self-serving ends. It's a reflection of the social trend in which the very wealthy have decided no one else matters in America; they are "super" and owe us nothing. This superman is theirs now, as is everything, John Q. Public, so give up all hope oh and F.U. Which is why the movie sucked because who wants to watch that lol
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Aug 8, 2016 06:20
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mind the walrus posted:I truly and deeply hate the Ultimates but aside from Samuel L. Nick Fury, Homeless Thor was the best thing out of it. What was wrong with the Ultimates? I've never read it. Seemed like it wanted to make characters jerks for no reason.
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Aug 8, 2016 08:39
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Nirvikalpa posted:What was wrong with the Ultimates? I've never read it. Seemed like it wanted to make characters jerks for no reason. Hulk was a rapist and a homophobe Captain America was a jingoistic supremacist The Blob was a cannibal (he ate the Wasp) Hank Pym was a serial wife abuser, nearly killing Jan on several occasions etc etc
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Aug 8, 2016 09:07
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Nirvikalpa posted:What was wrong with the Ultimates? I've never read it. Seemed like it wanted to make characters jerks for no reason. It's the worst kind of "mature comics for adults" stories, operating under the guise of "this is how real super heroes would act". Everyone is psychotic and lovely. Like, down to little poo poo like Betty Ross wanting to gently caress Bruce Banner after she sees him Hulk out.
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Aug 8, 2016 09:09
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So the extended cut of BvS makes the plot more coherent. Did they also tighten the editing for the fight sequences so they looked less like a drama school stage production?
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Aug 8, 2016 09:56
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naem posted:It's a reflection of the social trend in which the very wealthy have decided no one else matters in America; they are "super" and owe us nothing. This superman is theirs now, as is everything, John Q. Public, so give up all hope oh and F.U. Howard Beale's corporate cosmology is the worst for ratings. No one wants to be reminded of being replaceable as a piston rod. Snowglobe of Doom posted:Hulk was a rapist and a homophobe Tony Stark has a sex tape.
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Aug 8, 2016 10:03
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Nirvikalpa posted:What was wrong with the Ultimates? I've never read it. Seemed like it wanted to make characters jerks for no reason. Just read Ultimatum and enjoy all these cool comic book characters you like getting killed in disgusting and distasteful ways. Better yet, don't read Ultimatum.
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Aug 8, 2016 10:18
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to clarify, ultimates 1 and 2 were millar's tryhard edgy stories about assholes. 3 was loeb's gorefest that ignored every single previous story those characters had been in and was mostly about killing people off in very unpleasant ways.
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Aug 8, 2016 10:25
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Also, early '00s comics media ate the Ultimate line up. If you can find some Wizard magazines from that era, read them for their cringey gross praise of the whole line.
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Aug 8, 2016 10:30
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The first Ultimates was good, though. Yes it had an evil Hulk but they used him as a terrifying blunt instrument against their enemies and that was cool. Hippie superstar Thor was cool. Jingoistic old fashioned Captain America was amazing The whole thing was framed as a hollywood movie and inspired a lot of stuff in Marvel to come. The later Ultimates stuff was the worst poo poo though
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Aug 8, 2016 10:39
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There was sort of a long-running rumor that Marvel was going to use the Ultimate Universe to eventually give them a way to phase out the mainstream universe. Push the ultimate titles and eventually create an 'end' to the mainstream universe and have the ultimate version become the new mainstream.
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Aug 8, 2016 10:42
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JediTalentAgent posted:There was sort of a long-running rumor that Marvel was going to use the Ultimate Universe to eventually give them a way to phase out the mainstream universe. Push the ultimate titles and eventually create an 'end' to the mainstream universe and have the ultimate version become the new mainstream. well, i can see how people might think that. after the 90's it certainly seemed like marvel hated money.
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Aug 8, 2016 11:30
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Captain America was a jingoistic supremacist Captain America being a jingoistic supremacist sounds like the kind of thing that would be used as anti-American propaganda by the Soviets. Like, this dude is so imperialistic he would defend the racism practiced against African diplomats on Route 40 as just being a part of American Exceptionalism.
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Aug 8, 2016 11:34
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:I love how the mechaHarambes just start wailing on him when he's already down Legitimate lmao. I've watched it on repeat for a minute now and the comic timing of how quickly they're in position kicking his rear end is flawless. God bless the DCAU.
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Aug 8, 2016 13:34
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Flesh Forge posted:"Helping ordinary people is wrong" Jesus christ. I've never seen the film but that would have been a ton better had pa costner not told him to have let the school bus full of kids die. The kids were idiots as well, they could have gone out the back or front door, they weren't injured at all and could probably swim.
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Aug 8, 2016 13:40
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Cowman posted:Jesus christ. I've never seen the film but that would have been a ton better had pa costner not told him to have let the school bus full of kids die. The kids were idiots as well, they could have gone out the back or front door, they weren't injured at all and could probably swim. He comes back as a ghost/dream in BvS to tell Clark that heroism inevitably causes collateral damage and blowback with a down home parable of drowning horses.
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Aug 8, 2016 13:48
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:Legitimate lmao. I've watched it on repeat for a minute now and the comic timing of how quickly they're in position kicking his rear end is flawless. God bless the DCAU.  Not technically the DCAU but yeah DC's Animation department has a much better batting average, even if they've spent most of the last decade adapting each and any story that hardcore fanboys want but isn't viable for live action. "Why yes I would love to watch a super-compressed version of All-Star Superman, The New Frontier, and The Dark Knight Returns. Why yes I do eat paint chips and refuse to see how this is inferior in every way to just reading the drat books." Zzulu posted:The first Ultimates was good, though. If you're going to read anything Ultimates, read the first 13 or so issues. It still has abominable stuff like Hank trying super hard to kill Jan, and "Do you think this A on my head stands for France?" line which is so loving awful I'd like to personally kick Mark Millar in the gonads for giving it to the world, but overall yeah it's very deliberately "Jerry Bruckheimer does the Avengers" and it succeeds on those merits. And yes a lot of good bits were used in the movies-- Cap's WWII outfit, Samuel L. Nick Fury, Black Widow and Hawkeye and SHIELD wetworks operatives, dropping Bruce Banner from a helicopter to get him to Hulk out, the word "Chitauri," and so on-- and every indication is that if they hadn't hired on Joss Whedon they would have used more... namely having the team "form" to stop the Hulk rampaging directly instead of just having Thor fight him. Anything after that? From Ultimates 2 onward? Avoid it like an STD. If you even want to flip through pages I suggest wearing a condom. gradenko_2000 posted:Captain America being a jingoistic supremacist sounds like the kind of thing that would be used as anti-American propaganda by the Soviets. Like, this dude is so imperialistic he would defend the racism practiced against African diplomats on Route 40 as just being a part of American Exceptionalism. "Coincidentally" jingoistic supremacist Cap was written by a Scot. To be even-handed another Scot gave us one of the all-time great Superman stories a few years later. Jonas Albrecht posted:Also, early '00s comics media ate the Ultimate line up. If you can find some Wizard magazines from that era, read them for their cringey gross praise of the whole line. I can give that a soft pass. Marvel was still crawling out of bankruptcy, Spider-Man/X-Men movies were this huge thing, it's not surprising they'd lock-on to the comics movie pitch for the Avengers as an example of how awesome Marvel was doing and glossing over all the gross bits. naem posted:It's a reflection of the social trend in which the very wealthy have decided no one else matters in America; they are "super" and owe us nothing. This superman is theirs now, as is everything, John Q. Public, so give up all hope oh and F.U. I really wouldn't even care if that version was any good... show us a Superman from the perspective of the upper classes. Make him a self-involved petulant rear end in a top hat who only helps begrudgingly. Just commit dammit. Everything in MoS is a half-measure between the movie mass audiences want to see and expect and the sensibility Snyder is actually coming from ("gently caress you poors")
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Aug 8, 2016 13:48
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Otisburg posted:He comes back as a ghost/dream in BvS to tell Clark that heroism inevitably causes collateral damage and blowback with a down home parable of drowning horses. I'm assuming he's going for the "unintended consequences" and "every action has a reaction" poo poo.
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Aug 8, 2016 13:52
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