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american animosity towards europe in this whole affair is so funny to read about, when you've taken in absolute poo poo in terms of numbers
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Aug 9, 2016 15:57
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Tesseraction posted:I do find it quaint how you lot love to deliberately use the word 'migrant' to imply 'economic migrant' instead of 'refugee' since that would imply some expression of common humanity. What term would be acceptable for someone who travels across Europe to register as refugee and then after deciding that free food, housing and money is not good enough, buys their own plane ticket and flies back to Iraq?
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Aug 9, 2016 16:02
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I mean, I'd like to see our country take in any that aren't outright terrorists or criminals, so I have a right to poo poo on Europe's xenophobia.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:03
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Wild Horses posted:american animosity towards europe in this whole affair is so funny to read about, Yeah, when the main cause of this problem is the US and the Iraq war, it's a little bold for them to be offering criticism across their Atlantic moat.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:05
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doverhog posted:Yeah, when the main cause of this problem is the US and the Iraq war, it's a little bold for them to be offering criticism across their Atlantic moat. It's a combination of problems, IS is part of it for sure, but the Arab spring is probably the biggest reason as it lead to the civil war in the first place.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:09
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Otoh middle eastern despots use that exact narrative to excuse their oppression.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:27
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Arglebargle III posted:Otoh middle eastern despots use that exact narrative to excuse their oppression. I'm not saying the Arab spring is bad. It was good. Assad refusing to hand over power was bad. But it is the catalyst that started the civil war.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:31
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Nitrousoxide posted:It's a combination of problems, IS is part of it for sure, but the Arab spring is probably the biggest reason as it lead to the civil war in the first place. Assad's reaction led to the Civil War. Take a look at Jordan to see how a halfway competent monarch could handle the Arab Spring protests without losing his throne nor turning his country in a battlefield. It wasn't even that much, the situation is still pretty much the status quo, but there were some symbolic acts (changing the cabinet, promising some reforms (that ended up never happening) and advancing the date for the next scheduled elections). That was enough to make the protests subside. Contrast with Syria, where Assad's handling of the protests was to call the protestors terrorists and to order the army to fire in the crowd...
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Aug 9, 2016 17:11
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Cat Mattress posted:No, Britain and Spain and Poland worked very hard to be part of Bush Jr.'s Crusade, while France worked very hard to prevent it. Maybe try remembering history accurately? That this poo poo would happen -- that Iraq would turn into a terrorist hive -- was very high in the arguments used by France to tell the Americans they were being stupid fuckup dumbasses. The result was a bunch of Axis of Weasels, Freedom Fries, and Surrendering Monkeys propaganda; and now that it has been demonstrated that the French were 100% right and accurate about Bush's war in Iraq, you're loving blaming them for it? gently caress off you idiot. There have been more interventions in the Middle East than just Bush Jr's Iraq war. At least since Libya France has jumped at the opportunity to drop bombs. I'm not really seeing the point where only the Iraq War or conflicts that France wasn't involved in destabilised the Middle East. The ME has been on this path since at least the end of WWI where it was arbitrarily split up between Britain and France. France's involvement, be it their taking their part of the pie, their involvement in the Suez crisis, or their current involvement is all part of the greater problem called "western military interventions in the Middle East". France wasn't part of that every single step of the way, but it has decidedly been part of it, historically, and in the present time. Again; part of it. I brought it up as an example, not to single it out as bearing greater responsibility than other involved countries. If you feel like I did that then you're wrong.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:14
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Cat Mattress posted:Assad's reaction led to the Civil War. I think we both agree here. I'm saying that the civil war has a lot more to do with the refugees than ISIS which mostly controls large tracts of wasteland with very few people there. ISIS you can blame at least partly on the USA. The civil war is not our fault.
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Aug 9, 2016 18:30
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This idea that Europe should be absolved of hosting refugees because "Were just too rich and progressive!"  is so hilarious that I can't believe people are saying that with straight faces. As if refugee policies have ever been about how lucrative the refugees are to the host nation or how culturally compatible they are to the host nation's original population.It is not something that has never helped us. Millions and millions and millions of European refugees have ran to other nations since Europe was ever a concept. Sometimes willingly taken by the other nations, sometimes not. Usually at much bigger cost to the native populations. The whole modern concept of refugee legislation was built because of a massive number of European refugees, larger then now. Some of those refugees are still alive and I bet they are not such big babies about this. Were not guiltless. Between climate change, the exploitation of international companies, de-colonization gently caress-ups, clandestine and open support of dictatorships and endless military interventions and occupations we have contributed to the chaotic bloody situation in this countries. This is not a controversial or new fact to anyone who is not deluded. It is not something that other countries are not expected to do. Eighty percent of refugees are hosted by developing nations. The relative cost, demographic changes, and societal issues refugees have caused in those countries make Europes issues look like nothing. The rest of the world has always , and continues to actually deal with the world's refugee problem. Europe is expected to contribute. Most people arriving are actual refugees. The universal reality that a minority of people are unwilling to recognize widely verified and globally accepted statistics and news does not change this fact. Neither do the arbitrary law changes or statements of single countries. So some people exploit the system? Some people that come do crimes? Is this something that has not happened before? No? Why does the system need to be scrapped when Europe has to deal with it now? Terrorism in Europe is for the vast, vast majority committed European born nationals, by fringe movements and ideologies funded by European (and world) addiction to oil, armed by European weapons sales and given spark by military conflicts in which European nations have, directly and indirectly contributed to. Blaming refugees for it because of their religion is more far-fetched then blaming the average European tax-payer and voter for their generous help to say, the Saudis. It is not something that was hoisted on Europe. Refugee legislation was created because of European refugees. Europe was instrumental in creating it. European refugees have been taken in by other nations. European nations are signatories to this legislation. EU and its individual countries have been lecturing to the rest of the world to take better care of refugees since this legislation was created. I know each individual sentence makes some people progressively angry but these are real things that have happened in real world and you don't get to dismiss them. But good news, thanks to EU's massive unprecented diplomatic, military and financial effort it's managed to slow the refugee flow to a 25% of what it was a year ago (personally I don't agree with the methods, still doesn't change the reality). It has dealt with refugees in far better, faster and humane way then any other place. It has the resources and ability to do this because it is the richest continent in the world. And with a good fifth of the world's wealth, we have three percent of its refugees which is not a bad deal. Were still getting off easy. It isn't even the first time Europe had dealt with this poo poo and holy gently caress are we better off now. Just deal with the realities of the modern world and our place in it and find your stress lowering by the day! DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 19:44
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But the strain!on social services!will collapse! *votes austerity forever*
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Aug 9, 2016 20:29
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DarkCrawler posted:This idea that Europe should be absolved Kinda playing right into the right wing narrative with this language. Not that I disagree but I think there is something to be said for efficiency in accepting refugees, and spending Europe style welfare dollars for each person who manages to walk to the border might not be the best solution for the most people. Has anyone here heard about Canadian neighborhoods sponsorships for refugees?
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Aug 9, 2016 20:47
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DarkCrawler posted:This idea that Europe should be absolved of hosting refugees because "Were just too rich and progressive!" That really does sound hilarious which is why nobody ever said it. You will now probably roll your eyes and say something like "you know what I mean" or "they didn't say or but they meant it" or whatever. I would suggest instead that you try arguing against actual positions, not against imaginary, hilarious ones.
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Aug 9, 2016 20:56
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Doctor Malaver posted:That really does sound hilarious which is why nobody ever said it. You will now probably roll your eyes and say something like "you know what I mean" or "they didn't say or but they meant it" or whatever. I would suggest instead that you try arguing against actual positions, not against imaginary, hilarious ones. "Our standard of living is too high for hosting refugees" and "Our culture is incompatible with the backwards culture of the refugees" are both things that have been said and are the exact same ridicolous things in more words. You're welcome to challenge that. I would suggest you read and adress posts beyond the first sentence that triggers you but judging from this post I know it has a high likelihood of not happening.
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Aug 9, 2016 21:04
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The most humanitarian refugee policy is any policy that bars refugees from coming to Europe, as Europe is highly allergic to any peoples of vaguely Middle Eastern pedigree, and will break out in death camps if they keep coming.
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Aug 9, 2016 21:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The most humanitarian refugee policy is any policy that bars refugees from coming to Europe, as Europe is highly allergic to any peoples of vaguely Middle Eastern pedigree, and will break out in death camps if they keep coming. Joke or not, we are literally at a point where there are more than a few hundred people calling for concentration camps. Probably not a significant number, but the discourse has went through a hard shift this year. For example, Swedish politicians were describing Sweden as a "immigrant country" less than a year ago, but at our annual political get together in Gotland this summer it was all about nationalism and "Swedish values". Nationalism is definitely on the rise in Europe, and I'm guessing it doesn't include muslims.
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Aug 9, 2016 22:13
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DarkCrawler posted:
I'm sure this is what terrorists tell themselves before they go on to gun down cafés, bomb stadiums, brutally stabs and tortures a Westerner. They are all guilty, they deserve it, it's their fault.
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Aug 9, 2016 22:39
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Refugees have nothing to do with that friend.
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Aug 9, 2016 22:59
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Kurtofan posted:I'm sure this is what terrorists tell themselves before they go on to gun down cafés, bomb stadiums, brutally stabs and tortures a Westerner. They are all guilty, they deserve it, it's their fault. Just because something is true doesn't mean it's OK to kill for it, buddy! European countries are at fault in many things, stating this reality doesn't mean wanting them dead unless you are a crazy person. Drop the pearl clutching hysterics. We're getting off easy compared to other regions. Turkey has three million refugees with ten percent of Europe's population. You are aware what "easy" means? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 23:07
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DarkCrawler posted:"Our standard of living is too high for hosting refugees" and "Our culture is incompatible with the backwards culture of the refugees" are both things that have been said and are the exact same ridicolous things in more words. You're welcome to challenge that. Nobody argues that their standard of living is too high to accept refugees. You invent a quote and when you're called on it you try to shift the burden on proof on that person. That's not how it works. It's up to you to prove that people are saying that, it's not up to me to prove that they aren't. You can't prove a negative. The rest of your post did have valid points but yes the bullshit opening did trigger me. If you don't want people to focus on bullshit part of your posts then don't have bullshit parts.
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Aug 9, 2016 23:14
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Puistokemisti posted:What term would be acceptable for someone who travels across Europe to register as refugee and then after deciding that free food, housing and money is not good enough, buys their own plane ticket and flies back to Iraq? One less dole bludger?  I'd figure you'd only give a poo poo about terrists if they were maimgoring Europeans.
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Aug 9, 2016 23:20
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Doctor Malaver posted:Nobody argues that their standard of living is too high to accept refugees. You invent a quote and when you're called on it you try to shift the burden on proof on that person. That's not how it works. It's up to you to prove that people are saying that, it's not up to me to prove that they aren't. You can't prove a negative. The last pages have been almost exclusively about the meaningless economical argument about accepting refugees. The argument that it is more cost effective to have them in camps in poor countries (or just in poor countries period) because the standard of living, with the associated things like requirements for employment, education costs, welfare support etc. in European nations is higher, gets repeated every time this comes up.
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Aug 9, 2016 23:35
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Taking in refugees is obviously independent of economic value they may or may not create. Housing refugees is directly mandated by the teachings of Jesus and therefore part of the Christian foundation of many European nations. Furthermore, it seems to me very obviously basic to any humanist social ethos that is not hypocritic ie. poo poo. So if our European values are worth their poo poo in any way, the refugee ROI is not important. That being said, we SHOULD try to increase the ROI. Saying that refugees can not become engineers because they don't have a Bologna Bachelor or whatever is not really an insurmountable issue. Just because we educate technical workers normally around 16-18 years old, we could also make the system more flexible. This, by the way, would be very beneficial to the job market on the whole, because in the future increasing education mobility is absolutely necessary. So as always, this disadvantage can also turn out to become an advantage. Remember Germany being so poo poo at everything they had to do big reforms and everyone was like "ugh, look at Germany being all poor and terrible at making big bucks". Anyway, the core issue is that the majority of peeps in my country don't actually think that brown people refugees are actual human beings. It sounds funny but it's literally true.
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Aug 9, 2016 23:51
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The thing about Europe is that it's insanely racist but everyone pretends otherwise.
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Aug 9, 2016 23:55
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drilldo squirt posted:The thing about Europe is that it's insanely racist but everyone pretends otherwise. Only if "everyone" is "left-wing American". We may not prioritize it in the same way as Americans but that's only because we have a long history of finding so many other wonderful ways of hating people.
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Aug 10, 2016 00:11
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drilldo squirt posted:The thing about Europe is that it's insanely racist but everyone pretends otherwise. Sorry, Europe should upgrade its racism to Australian or American level I guess. That way the incoming refugees could be sent to some off-shore rape camp, while those who are already in would just get killed by the police. Problem solved.
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Aug 10, 2016 00:43
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America is actually a lot better at immigrants than Europe., Im sorry europe is not the best at everything. Also it's kinda ironic you are comparing it to Australia, from an outside perspective their isn't much difference between what you are doing and what Australia is.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:09
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Puistokemisti posted:What term would be acceptable for someone who travels across Europe to register as refugee and then after deciding that free food, housing and money is not good enough, buys their own plane ticket and flies back to Iraq? At the moment they are called refugees. Wild Horses posted:american animosity towards europe in this whole affair is so funny to read about, Agreed. I also find it funny when people say that countries that didn't take part in Iraqi War or Syrian Civil War etc. should fix everything.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:17
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Except for the australia rape camps, Europe is Just like australia. Europe is massivelly racist,but its more about gps tribalism.for exemple i loving loathe people living north of the 39th paralel, and thats like half of my country.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:19
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The European built their wealth from looting the world and now some of that world is running away from the dumpster fire you left behind and Europeans are loosing their goddam mind over it.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:23
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"loosing" The place is a racist shithole though. I can't believe the poo poo I'm reading online from people living around here. Straight up Nazi propaganda.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:26
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Except for the australia rape camps, Europe is Just like australia. Europe is massivelly racist,but its more about gps tribalism.for exemple i loving loathe people living north of the 39th paralel, and thats like half of my country. Europe is doing everything it can to keep refugees in third world camps and they know what those places are like.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:29
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Truga posted:"loosing" It fun as an American to watch the pretense of an inclusive liberal Europe fall apart as soon as there was a chance of scary brown people showing up.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:31
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drilldo squirt posted:It fun as an American to watch the pretense of an inclusive liberal Europe fall apart as soon as there was a chance of scary brown people showing up. To be honest there's a fair bit of xenophobia in Western Europe against a Eastern Europe as well, so it's not just skin color. Reading some of the British press on Bulgarians and Romanians was an eye opening experience for me. Not that Eastern Europeans are any better. Everyone everywhere is a tribalist oval office, pretty much.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:44
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drilldo squirt posted:It fun as an American to watch the pretense of an inclusive liberal Europe fall apart as soon as there was a chance of scary brown people showing up. The US is one very unpopular woman away from electing an authoritarian reality tv star because he ran on a platform of throwing out Mexicans who've integrated pretty seamlessly into American society, but sure, it's Europe that deserves to be mocked for handling a far more abrupt influx from a far more dissimilar region which could have a far greater impact on their way of life a bit less gracefully than you think they should.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:53
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Yes, because in Europe you are already electing them.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:59
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Sinteres posted:The US is one very unpopular woman away from electing an authoritarian reality tv star because he ran on a platform of throwing out Mexicans who've integrated pretty seamlessly into American society, but sure, it's Europe that deserves to be mocked for handling a far more abrupt influx from a far more dissimilar region which could have a far greater impact on their way of life a bit less gracefully than you think they should. America is literally a nation of immigrants. At least 13.7% of Americans were born outside of the USA. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/09/28/us-foreign-born-population-nears-high/72814674/ Even more when you consider illegal immigrants. And even way more if you consider people with a parent or grandparent that is an immigrant. Yes. We can mock your nativism.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:01
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drilldo squirt posted:Yes, because in Europe you are already electing them. I'm American. Nitrousoxide posted:At least 13.7% of Americans were born outside of the USA. If a massive percentage of them suddenly showed up from Syria in a two year time frame, the next US President would make Trump look like Merkel.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:05
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Sinteres posted:I'm American. I don't know dude with all the minorities here angry white people can't really do whatever they want anymore so I feel a lot safer here than in Germany where they ignore neo nazis going on a killing sprees.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:12
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