|
Aramoro posted:What are the effects of Debris. Write them out. Get a stress, Roll a die, take a crit if you roll one.
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 18:06 |
|
|
Aramoro posted:You apply the effect of debris cloud immediately. The effect of debris cloud is you get a stress token after your check pilot stress phase. The effect of debris cloud is explicitly NOT gain a stress token. You immediately roll a dice and see if you take a crit, you immediately gain a stress token in your check pilot stress phases. Those are the effects of Debris. So by this argument, if the ship has already moved they will "immediately" get a stress token after the check pilot stress phase in the next round. Stretching the use of immediately there a bit I think. Think of it this way: the effect of the debris cloud is that you get a stress token. The timing is specified during the activation phase to prevent ships from doing a green over the debris and immediately clearing the stress. The stress effect is not intrinsicly linked with the "after check pilot stress" timing. In the same way, if a tractor beam puts you a debris cloud, you immediately take a stress.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Get a stress, Roll a die, take a crit if you roll one. Wrong, try again from the actual text of the rules.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:33
|
|
|
hoiyes posted:So by this argument, if the ship has already moved they will "immediately" get a stress token after the check pilot stress phase in the next round. The rules are intrinsically linked to performing an maneuver which is why they need to be changed. But right now the effect of a Debris cloud is not 'gain a stress token'. That might be the end result but that's not the actual rules. They may well errata the rules to make it do that, but they would have to change the rules as written right now to do that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:Wrong, try again from the actual text of the rules. Get a stress, roll a red die, take a critical damage if you roll a [kaboom] symbol. You can whinge about it all you want, but the intention of the designers is absolutely clear.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Get a stress, roll a red die, take a critical damage if you roll a [kaboom] symbol. Ah ok so we're going off what you feel the rules should be in your heart? I didn't know we were using the rules you had made up in your head. Cool.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:Ah ok so we're going off what you feel the rules should be in your heart? I didn't know we were using the rules you had made up in your head. Cool. No, we're going off the rules the designers made up in theirs, and wrote down in the Shadow Caster box. Look. The rules for obstacles currently assume that there's no way to trigger them outside of a manoeuvre. But... that's no longer true, so the rules for obstacles are loving obsolete and need updating. The intention of Tractor Beams and Rigged Cargo Holds are pretty clear. The intention of Collision Detectors, less so.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:46
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:No, we're going off the rules the designers made up in theirs, and wrote down in the Shadow Caster box. Sorry i can't really comment on your homebrew rules. I disagree that the intention of the designers is clear. Its clear you're supposed to roll to see you get critted but its not clear youre supposed to immediately gain a stress out of turn when that is not what the rules say. I agree the rules need updating which is what ive been saying. But right now with the rules as they are you would not immediately get stressed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:Sorry i can't really comment on your homebrew rules. Why do you think you only get critted, but NOT stressed? Both effects can currently only trigger by RAW if you end a manoeuvre on a debris cloud or your manoeuvre template crosses one. Neither of those happens if one is dropped on your head.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:55
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:I disagree that the intention of the designers is clear. Its clear you're supposed to roll to see you get critted but its not clear youre supposed to immediately gain a stress out of turn when that is not what the rules say.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 17:56
|
|
|
hoiyes posted:Why is it clear that the effect that occurs after the perform action step triggers, but not clear that the effect that occurs after check pilot stress step triggers. I mean, by your logic neither of these things occur, so nothing should happen. Because on the Debris card theres a cause, you fly over a debris cloud, then 2 effects. If you suffer the effects of a debris cloud then clearly those 2 things happen to you. Neither of those 2 things are 'gain a stress token'. 1. Is gain a stress token after your 'Check pilot stress' step and 2. Is roll and a crit yourself. It is fairly unclear how its supposed to work outside of your own turn because the rules are a mess but i don't think you can assume youre supposed to gain a stress out of turn which is something they've tried hard not to do. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:01
|
|
|
I'm annoyed that there are a bunch of extra rules for this game that aren't in the rulebook and aren't available online anywhere. You have to have all those loving reference cards or the insert if you want to review tractor beam tokens or Ghost/Phantom docking rules, for example. FFG needs to put that poo poo online.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:05
|
|
|
For reference: quote:Debris Cloud: After the “Check Pilot Stress” Directly from the Rules Reference. Both effects of the Debris Cloud occur after specific steps. I'm almost willing to bet that there will be an FAQ before the Wave drops, just like Wave 8 had. Either the new rules cards are wrong or the debris rules need to be changed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:07
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:Because on the Debris card theres a cause, you fly over a debris cloud, then 2 effects. If you suffer the effects of a debris cloud then clearly those 2 things happen to you. Neither of those 2 things are 'gain a stress token'. 1. Is gain a stress token after your 'Check pilot stress' step and 2. Is roll and a crit yourself. 2 is 'roll and crit yourself after the 'perform action' step though. So by that logic either both should happen or neither should.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:07
|
|
|
Agreed on the huge mess. Though you might actually be onto something, as why else would they have changed the language from the rules reference for the dropped debris token? Of course, if this is their intention it would mean that tractor beam onto debris and asteroids would do nothing. I think they are just bad at writing consistent and robust rules.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:10
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:2 is 'roll and crit yourself after the 'perform action' step though. They should both happen when they say they happen. My Debris Cloud doesn't say when it just says that you Roll a dice but it seems they've said when that happens as well. In which case it also doesn't happen right away but when it states it should. The effect of Debris is explicitly not 'Gain a stress token' as you can see above. Im sure this will be all rendered moot with an FAQ in the release of the wave.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:12
|
|
|
So how da fuq does tractor beam work, then? The Tractor Beam token ref card doesn't even say what happens when you get tractor'd onto an obstacle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:17
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:So how da fuq does tractor beam work, then? The Tractor Beam token ref card doesn't even say what happens when you get tractor'd onto an obstacle. It got errata'd in the FAQ on release lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
I glanced through the FAQ (on mobile) and I don't see anything about interpreting obstacles. Asteroids require a specific thing as well (skipping the Perform Action step) before you roll for damage. By the rules and FAQ, as written, Tractor Beaming onto an obstacle does literally nothing but prevent you from attacking if you're on an asteroid. Unless they wrote themselves an out for future obstacles that don't require specific steps, they hosed up and haven't fixed it yet. If they didn't intend for obstacle effects to occur after a Tractor and now the Cargo, surely they would have said SOMETHING by now. Admiral Joeslop fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Aug 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:So how da fuq does tractor beam work, then? The Tractor Beam token ref card doesn't even say what happens when you get tractor'd onto an obstacle. Tractor Beam states that the ship suffers the effect of any obstacle it overlaps. If you TB a ship onto an asteroid, because there is no Perform Action step to skip, you don't roll the damage die. The effect is just that they don't get to perform any attacks. TBing a ship onto a debris cloud means that, because there is no Check Pilot Stress step, they don't receive a stress. The weird thing is that unlike asteroids, the second effect for debris cloud does not tie the damage roll to a specific step. There is no trigger, just roll a die and take a damage if the result is a crit. It looks like, as written, the only way to use Tractor Beam and make a ship take the full effect of an obstacle is if you place them so that their maneuver template will overlap it during the next Activation Phase. Moose King fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Aug 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
But where does all this fit on the flow chart?Aramoro posted:It does create a strange rules situation ..... This pretty much can be applied to most everything FFG writes into X-Wing. I love the game, but but I think FFg is allergic to Technical writers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:36
|
|
|
"Asteroid: The ship must skip its “Perform Action” step this round. After skipping the “Perform Action” step, it rolls one attack die." I was wrong, technically you still skip your Perform Action step if you haven't already done it this turn, and roll for a damage when you do. Even if your template doesn't overlap the asteroid. EDIT: This assumes you have some way to Tractor Beam in the activation phase of course. Admiral Joeslop fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Aug 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
Admiral Joeslop posted:I glanced through the FAQ (on mobile) and I don't see anything about interpreting obstacles. Asteroids require a specific thing as well (skipping the Perform Action step) before you roll for damage. If they didn't intend for obstacle effects to occur then it means they added a release day errata to the tractor beam card that did absolutely nothing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:47
|
|
|
enigmahfc posted:But where does all this fit on the flow chart? They are so bad at writing rules and change them radically without telling anyone whenever they release a rulebook. They've tried really hard to avoid a situation where you gain stress after setting a dial and before moving so I think they will continue to try and avoid that situation. Especially if it can be a tactic to make your opponent fly off the table.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
hoiyes posted:If they didn't intend for obstacle effects to occur then it means they added a release day errata to the tractor beam card that did absolutely nothing. Correct.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
Admiral Joeslop posted:Correct. Is there an FFG emote? Imagine you're in a Decivader chiraneau, no shields but otherwise full. You dial in white 2 turn. Dash comes in a drops this on you and get a stress and roll a crit and receive the hard turns red crit. You're now off the table with zero recourse. Edge case but extremely hilarious/infuriating, depending on which side of the table you are.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
hoiyes posted:Is there an FFG emote? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:04
|
|
|
hoiyes posted:If they didn't intend for obstacle effects to occur then it means they added a release day errata to the tractor beam card that did absolutely nothing. If they intended for obstacles effects to occur they should have errataed obstacle effects instead of the Tractor Beam.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
Came into this thread thinking I understood the rules for Tractor Beams, Debris Clouds, Asteroids and Rigged Cargo Chutes but now it's clear to me I just have a Mini War Gaming level of comprehension of said rules.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:16
|
|
|
Admiral Joeslop posted:I glanced through the FAQ (on mobile) I made a bit.ly link to the FAQ, https://bit.ly/xwingfaq if anybody needs the latest version quick. I'll replace the link with the updated FAQ when it gets updated.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:19
|
|
|
What if MWG has been interpreting the rules correctly this whole time and WE'RE the wrong ones? makes u think
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
I did a bit of Googling on it and found this on the FFG forums, where pretty much this exact argument was happening a few months ago. One of them emailed a Creative Content Director at FFG who stated that Tractor Beaming a ship onto an obstacle does, in fact, make them roll for damage or gain stress. So the intention behind "The ship suffers the effect of any obstacle it overlaps" seems to be that Tractor Beam replaces the triggers specified by the obstacle rules, it's just that they worded it in the muddiest way possible.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:33
|
|
|
I'm considering a German flag color scheme for Frau, what other colors would go along with my Frau Nien list (Fenn Rau, Zuckuss, Talonbane)? Austria and another country?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 19:49
|
|
|
Admiral Joeslop posted:I'm considering a German flag color scheme for Frau, what other colors would go along with my Frau Nien list (Fenn Rau, Zuckuss, Talonbane)? Switzerland?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 20:00
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:Switzerland? Hmm.. Talonbane is already kinda chocolatey...
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 20:23
|
|
|
Paint Fenn Rau West German and Talonbane East German because they're basically the same thing except one sucks.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
Strobe posted:Paint Fenn Rau West German and Talonbane East German because they're basically the same thing except one sucks. This
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
toblerone cobra
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
Now I'm going to have to figure out how to freehand those symbols.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 20:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 18:06 |
|
|
Finster Dexter posted:I'm annoyed that there are a bunch of extra rules for this game that aren't in the rulebook and aren't available online anywhere. You have to have all those loving reference cards or the insert if you want to review tractor beam tokens or Ghost/Phantom docking rules, for example. FFG needs to put that poo poo online. Yeah, it's really stupid. I keep a couple of photos on my phone from the insert to explain the Ghost/Phantom docking rules, because nobody knows them. For those who are wondering, here's how it works: The shuttle can deploy out the rear guides of the Ghost in 2 ways, through regular movement phase deployment or by deploying when the carrier ship is destroyed. Regular deployment: Ghost executes any maneuver as normal, and they can deploy the Phantom out the rear guides. To do so, they announce that they're deploying the Phantom, they choose ANY maneuver on the Phantom's dial, and then they execute that maneuver from the Ghost's rear guides. Phantom follows all regular rules for overlapping when deployed this way. If it's not stressed AND if it's not overlapping an obstacle, it can perform an action (just like after a regular maneuver). It may also attack this round as usual. Deployed when carrier is destroyed: When the Ghost is destroyed with the Phantom docked, the Phantom gets to be immediately deployed just before the Ghost is removed from the battlefield. Similarly, you dial in a maneuver and execute it from the rear dials. Phantom is also dealt a face down damage card when it deploys this way. You can still perform an action, but you cannot make any attacks until next round. If the Ghost flees the battlefield with the Phantom attached, both are destroyed. The other weird interaction is with Boba Fett crew. If Boba Fett crew triggers on the Ghost, it can ONLY affect upgrades equipped to the Ghost (not the Phantom, as the ship and the cards can't be targeted by anything while docked). If Boba Fett crew discards the Ghost title, the only effect there is that the Phantom can no longer deploy regularly after a Ghost maneuver, but is still able to deploy (with a damage) if the Ghost is destroyed. You can still do the second turret attack with the Phantom title Another rules question: Can a ship that has overlapped another ship or obstacle in the prior turn use advanced sensors to take an action before revealing their maneuver in the next turn? I was in a situation with an Advanced Sensors Ghost that was parked on a rock from a prior turn, and I wanted to use advanced sensors to take a Focus before revealing my maneuver. The guy said I couldn't take actions, because I was on a rock. I'm pretty sure that is wrong, and that running into the rock triggers the skip on the "Perform Actions" step, but you can still perform free actions while overlapped with stuff. Who is right?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2016 21:01
|
|
