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Tesseraction posted:Funnily enough 'the middle' is a constantly changing position based upon the rhetorical foundations of a society. To insinuate that such a position represents a well-defined and rigid political position is as stupid as claiming Islam is one specific set of rules rigidly outlining ideology. The disappearing middle is a well documented phenomenon in politics in which polarization is taking root and extreme parties and ideologies are growing. Of course where the actual center is can and does change, but I was talking about the increase in the average distance from that middle point. Anyone who's insufficiently pure is attacked relentlessly until they join one pole or the other. The reason you don't see far right posters on this forum is because they have their own echo chambers.
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Aug 16, 2016 02:08
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Sinteres posted:The disappearing middle is a well documented phenomenon in politics in which polarization is taking root and extreme parties and ideologies are growing. Of course where the actual center is can and does change, but I was talking about the increase in the average distance from that middle point. Anyone who's insufficiently pure is attacked relentlessly until they join one pole or the other. The reason you don't see far right posters on this forum is because they have their own echo chambers. There are dozens of far right posters in this thread alone, let alone forums like TFR and GBS. The gently caress are you smoking?
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Aug 16, 2016 02:10
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It almost like we had 3+ decades of centrism and society started to push back.I wonder why that happened. Also what the hell does that have to do with wearing the world's most boring swimsuit?
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Aug 16, 2016 02:14
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Sinteres posted:The disappearing middle is a well documented phenomenon in politics in which polarization is taking root and extreme parties and ideologies are growing. Of course where the actual center is can and does change, but I was talking about the increase in the average distance from that middle point. Anyone who's insufficiently pure is attacked relentlessly until they join one pole or the other. The reason you don't see far right posters on this forum is because they have their own echo chambers. So you recognise there's a polarisation, but assume yourself to be above it? And you assume this forum is a... far left echo chamber? Sorry but I have to abandon any pretence of being fair here: you're a loving moron. This forum can show a left-leaning bias but that's primarily because the moderation staff tend towards higher-educated people. Sorry but that little stereotype about higher-educated people being left-leaning is true. Is this a problem for the left's elitism problem? Yes. Is it a problem for you being a loving idiot? Well, yes, actually, because you've defended none of your points in the past page and a half and instead opted for making fictitious assertions about others to deflect from your intellectual vacuity.
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Aug 16, 2016 02:14
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Sorry I didn't rebut every line point by point to your satisfaction while I was being called a racist over and over despite stating my support for anti-discrimination law over the last couple pages. Nothing I say is read in good faith anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Have fun.
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Aug 16, 2016 02:18
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Sinteres posted:Sorry I didn't rebut every line point by point to your satisfaction while I was being called a racist over and over despite stating my support for anti-discrimination law over the last couple pages. Nothing I say is read in good faith anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Have fun. I never requested you provide a line-by-line rebuttal. The problem is you ignore several posts at a time when they are hard to argue against while being consistent to your ostensible opinion. Or simplified, you argue in bad faith, attempt to make ZZZUP3R Z1CKK BURNZZ against an imagined position of people you've rarely talked to, attempt to turn every discussion into whether someone called you racist, and mostly just run away from any attempt to request you have intellectual honesty.
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Aug 16, 2016 02:24
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Sinteres posted:Sorry I didn't rebut every line point by point to your satisfaction while I was being called a racist over and over despite stating my support for anti-discrimination law over the last couple pages. Nothing I say is read in good faith anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Have fun. You don't support "anti-discrimination" though, you support active discrimination and leap to defend said discrimination.
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Aug 16, 2016 02:26
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fishmech posted:You don't support "anti-discrimination" though, you support active discrimination and leap to defend said discrimination. He's stated the opposite multiple times? You and tesseraction have a rather hyperbolic tone, to put it mildly. Maybe stop calling wolf for a bit? You're gonna get your chance soon enough when the west descends into fascism for real anyway...
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Aug 16, 2016 07:45
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Majorian posted:No, of course, how could I possibly see racism there? Yes, actually, this is a reaction to "gently caress rapefugees" becoming acceptable public opinion after the Köln shitshow and the cartoon contrasts this shift in public opinion with the previous and similarly widespread outporing of support for a picture of that drowned kid, i.e. it says "the public have the attention span of a goldfish and impulsively change their opinions about refugees to mutually exclusive dumb poo poo". But since you immediately feel outrage before even having finished reading the caption, you are unable to understand this. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 07:49
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Yes, actually, this is a reaction to "gently caress rapefugees" becoming acceptable public opinion after the Köln shitshow and the cartoon contrasts this shift in public opinion with the previous and similarly widespread outporing of support for a picture of that drowned kid, i.e. it says "the public have the attention span of a goldfish and impulsively change their opinions about refugees to mutually exclusive dumb poo poo". But since you immediately feel outrage before even having finished reading the caption, you are unable to understand this. Thank you, I don't get how anybody could look at that deliberate juxtaposition of imagery in that cartoon and think the author is representing his own views instead of lampooning people by taking their opinions ad absurdum. If it makes you uncomfortable, it is on purpose because it unmasks the primeval crude bigotry hiding behind the more abstract and dog-whistling rhetoric of the popular right by pairing these two and implicitly saying you can't have one and distance yourself from the other: this thing, this cartoon is you, and what does it tell you about yourself that you hate it? Ironically people are supporting the racists here because of impulsive outrage, by basically asking for racist thoughts to be only presented in the appealing, "inoffensive" fashion racist populists want them to be portrayed, even when they are being criticized. tl,dr; why is this loving bigot asking me to eat irish babies steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 08:00
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Right now there is an undercurrent of fear, frustration and anger in Europe, and I don't know of anyone who looks at the future with enthusiasm. People think there are problems that needs to be solved yesterday, an the response is either of three: We agree there is a problem and we want to fix it. There is no problem. You're the problem. Guess which strategy gains support in the current climate? This is not an endorsement of any solution, but you're gonna have to get people on your side to make any changes, and antagonising them doesn't work. In an ideal world we might be able to ignore the people we disagree with, but this is Europe.
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Aug 16, 2016 08:09
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Majorian posted:Quite frankly, I think the fact that there has been so little homegrown terrorism from Muslims in the U.S. until the last couple years, is more telling. First, the US is pickier when it choses immigrants so that Muslims in the US are better educated than the average. Then you have 1% of Muslim population compared to 7-10% Muslim poulation in the countries hit hardest, Belgium and France. Unsurprisingly, a small, educated minority causes less problems than a larger, less educated one.
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Aug 16, 2016 08:31
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These topics surrounding immigration and cultural identity are pretty interesting to me and it is clear that a better approach needs to be found in Europe. This makes it all the more unfortunate that the discussion always devolves quickly into a useless slapfight. I will try to untangle some of the fundamental cultural differences leading to seemingly irreconcilable points of view. I write from a European (in particular German) perspective and will by necessity paint in broad strokes. So please keep the big picture in mind even if you disagree on some fine points of my generalizations. First, I believe that the attitudes towards taboo symbols differ between the US and Europe. In general taboo symbols seem to be more powerful in America, making their usage much more divisive. This can be seen by the self-censorship and euphemisms surrounding these taboos, be it the beeping out of swear words on television, the self employed beeping out in online comments (f*ck etc.) or the many code words (f-bomb, n-word, etc. and even something as innocuous as gosh). Similar things exist in other countries but not nearly to the same extent in my experience. Paradoxically, this could be one of the reasons for the power of these words: Usage tends to whittle down a taboo but with these euphemisms you can kind of invoke the power without taking away from the taboo. Sometimes also non-use can take away the power of the taboo, see for example the German Neger which just sounds too old fashioned to be taken seriously nowadays. Needless to say the code words also prevent this from happening. The by far most potent example is of course the word friend of the family. Even typing it in the context of discussing its symbolic power will probably put me in suspicion of just looking for an excuse to use it out of edginess or racism. In an American context this might even be true, the word is just too powerful to be ever used in a casual way. But while I know about this strong taboo in the US, I have no visceral reaction to the word and therefore don't feel any glee about getting away with using it.* In the same way, drawing a black person as a monkey becomes inherently racist in an American context, even if the intention of the message was to mock racist people (and even if the person displayed agrees with the message and the way it was communicated). In a sense the symbol becomes the thing. It is true that some people employ racist or otherwise taboo imagery with racist intent to later claim other motives (as has been impressively displayed by Trump surrogates on TV in recent days), while the symbols are still understood by the target audience in their intended racist way. I believe that this possibility does not absolve oneself from looking at the context and deciding case by case, especially when dealing with messages from other cultures. *A similar example would be how I, as a German, have a visceral reaction to Nazi symbols like the phrase Heil Hitler, leading to me not finding some of the Nazi jokes, the English so love, to be particularly funny. In the second part I want to discuss cultural identity in the US and Europe, how they differ and how this relates to integration. Since the discussion is fast moving and I am slow, I wanted to post the first part before it becomes irrelevant again. true.spoon fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 10:22
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icantfindaname posted:Do you think caricatures of thick-lipped sambo characters in blackface groping white women would be racist? If yes, why? Do you agree that this article is antisemitic and should be prosecuted as hate speech? Do you agree that its writer should be killed by a Jewish fanatic?
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Aug 16, 2016 12:30
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Volkerball posted:Rammstein doesn't even really do that. They just enjoy using things people aren't comfortable with. They grew up in East Berlin where media was censored strictly, so they express themselves in a really out there way. If they do something like goose step during a live show and it's meant to make people draw that connection, it's along the same lines of them making music videos with a bunch of muscley dudes all oiled up, or using a giant dick cannon to spray the crowd with fake jizz. Or having fake gay sex on stage. Or blowing up baby dolls with bombs. If there's something you want buried and dead or as far away from you as possible, they want to put it right in your face. East Germans loved goose stepping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7mQPKRMTQw
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Aug 16, 2016 12:42
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So about the implications of Europeans passing laws targeting religious minorties.
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Aug 16, 2016 13:30
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Einbauschrank posted:First, the US is pickier when it choses immigrants so that Muslims in the US are better educated than the average. Then you have 1% of Muslim population compared to 7-10% Muslim poulation in the countries hit hardest, Belgium and France. What's also surprising is treating immigrants like people instead of free labor helps them assimilate.
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Aug 16, 2016 13:33
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I say we build a wall around Europe, kick out all the brown people to make sure whites stay insulated and can never endanger the rest of the world again! Also we are going to get China to pay for it!
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Aug 16, 2016 13:53
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Riso posted:I say we build a wall around Europe, kick out all the brown people to make sure whites stay insulated and can never endanger the rest of the world again! Making Großdeutschland Great Again.
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Aug 16, 2016 13:57
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drilldo squirt posted:What's also surprising is treating immigrants like people instead of free labor helps them assimilate. It probably does, though I really doubt the US is better than the average EU country there, would be happy to be shown some papers that would support a that. I think a more likely main cause is something like levels of welfare support, as high welfare support has been shown to be detrimental for integration. Though I really don't fancy our governments cutting welfare even more I assume welfare states will continue to have a comparatively harder time integrating immigrants than the US, at least until our politicians continue to dismantle the welfare state down to US levels.
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Aug 16, 2016 14:12
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Riso posted:I say we build a wall around Europe, kick out all the brown people to make sure whites stay insulated and can never endanger the rest of the world again! I agree Trump is bad. Do you agree European nations passing laws targeting religious minorities are also bad and indicative of racial and xenophobic undercurrent in European society
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Aug 16, 2016 14:14
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Zudgemud posted:It probably does, though I really doubt the US is better than the average EU country there, would be happy to be shown some papers that would support a that. I think a more likely main cause is something like levels of welfare support, as high welfare support has been shown to be detrimental for integration. Though I really don't fancy our governments cutting welfare even more I assume welfare states will continue to have a comparatively harder time integrating immigrants than the US, at least until our politicians continue to dismantle the welfare state down to US levels. There have been articles about this very subject posted on here you clown.
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Aug 16, 2016 14:16
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Zudgemud posted:I think a more likely main cause is something like levels of welfare support, as high welfare support has been shown to be detrimental for integration. Source?
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Aug 16, 2016 14:16
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drilldo squirt posted:I agree Trump is bad. How dare you! He's the only one to support the working class against the rampant exploitation by rootless cosmopolitans who get rid of jobs to fill their pockets! quote:Do you agree European nations passing laws targeting religious minorities are also bad and indicative of racial and xenophobic undercurrent in European society Religious minorities can get on the bandwagon like the others and stop making waves or gently caress off. Protecting your own people is what a state is for and all we are doing is to return to a more sensible stance vs the illusory open world utopia of self-hating leftist elites. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2016 14:51
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Riso posted:Religious minorities can get on the bandwagon like the others and stop making waves or gently caress off. The utopia of not banning minarets for no good reason.
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Aug 16, 2016 14:54
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Riso posted:Religious minorities can get on the bandwagon like the others and stop making waves or gently caress off. Holy poo poo. Edit: Oh wait you're the guy who got banned from our Discord for saying refugees should be drowned in the Mediterranean. Nitrousoxide fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 15:37
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Fox Cunning posted:He's stated the opposite multiple times? You and tesseraction have a rather hyperbolic tone, to put it mildly. Maybe stop calling wolf for a bit? You're gonna get your chance soon enough when the west descends into fascism for real anyway... He hasn't stated the opposite multiple times, because each time he starts to try to do that he immediately flails back to being really freaking racist. He just cannot stand the sight of any woman who is visibly Muslim, due to his racism, and it's painfully obvious.
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Aug 16, 2016 16:13
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drilldo squirt posted:I agree Trump is bad. Do you agree European nations passing laws targeting religious minorities are also bad and indicative of racial and xenophobic undercurrent in European society There is no easy solution to the problem of European xenophobia/racism. The state of the world is fanning the flames. We have mass austerity in an era where western nations are in limited but constant war in the Middle East, we have the resulting refugees which some westerners are literally too stupid to realise their governments are responsible for them in the first place and we have this new wave of terrorism by what amounts to a nihilistic death cult pretending to be Islamic. In this environment you are not going to able to remove the racism from the already racist. It would take decades of reeducation. Which means if Europes descent into fascism is to be stopped it won't be via direct appeal to populations. It will be via economic revival and a reduction in world chaos. The poo poo in Syria has to stop and never happen again. An entire country allowed to crumble with the resulting diaspora because, whoops, seems it lay directly in between two spheres of influence. Awkward! But we also have to accept that during economic turmoil and times of mass movement of refugees that racist sentiment is going to increase. Yes the racists are loving dumbasses and yes not everyone becomes racists during these times meaning no one HAS to lose their mind every time things get tough. But some do and there is nothing to be done about that. Preventing media from basically becoming corporate run hate propaganda would be a start. Especially in the UK. But that raises its own problems. I'm certainly not in favour of heavy state control of media like in Russia. State run stuff is fine until your "side" is no longer in power and that state run apparatus is now being used against you. Still, preventing media from running hate pieces simply because they know it'll increase profits would be a start. I'd say there are signs the UK is becoming a mediacracy and I wonder if this is also the case in other European nations. We can bemoan the racists hoardes all we like but there is an entire machine behind it. Some of it is human directed and some is just chaos working itself out much like our current system of capitalism. A beast we think we control and yet plunges us into recessions cycle after cycle. Easily manipulatable dumb people are always going to be a thing. The machinery behind the manipulation is something we can change.
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Aug 16, 2016 16:18
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Riso posted:Religious minorities can get on the bandwagon like the others and stop making waves or gently caress off. This is what the nazis believed and I think we can all agree they sucked and are bad.
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Aug 16, 2016 16:37
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blowfish posted:Yes, actually, this is a reaction to "gently caress rapefugees" becoming acceptable public opinion after the Köln shitshow and the cartoon contrasts this shift in public opinion with the previous and similarly widespread outporing of support for a picture of that drowned kid, i.e. it says "the public have the attention span of a goldfish and impulsively change their opinions about refugees to mutually exclusive dumb poo poo". I understand the point behind it. It's still really racist to depict non-white people as monkeys, hate to tell ya.
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Aug 16, 2016 16:44
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Nitrousoxide posted:Holy poo poo. No, just saying letting them drown would serve as disincentive to the rest. It's been awhile. quote:There is no easy solution to the problem of European xenophobia/racism. It's not limited to Europe; everyone is.
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Aug 16, 2016 16:46
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Riso posted:How dare you! I personally don't feel like my country has to protect me from clothing and towers
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Aug 16, 2016 16:46
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Einbauschrank posted:First, the US is pickier when it choses immigrants so that Muslims in the US are better educated than the average. Gonna need you to cite your claim here, please. Riso posted:No, just saying letting them drown would serve as disincentive to the rest. It's been awhile. Wow. 
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Aug 16, 2016 16:47
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Riso posted:He's the only one to support the working class against the rampant exploitation by rootless cosmopolitans who get rid of jobs to fill their pockets! This is Europol in a sentence, isn't it?
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Aug 16, 2016 16:48
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Majorian posted:Gonna need you to cite your claim here, please. Straight from the Wikipedia entry "Islam in the USA".
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Aug 16, 2016 16:53
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Einbauschrank posted:Straight from the Wikipedia entry "Islam in the USA". Not seeing where it says that the US is "more choosy." e: Also, more to the point, it would be helpful if you could point to an actual provision in U.S. immigration law. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 16:57
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Majorian posted:I understand the point behind it. It's still really racist to depict non-white people as monkeys, hate to tell ya. Actually, that's not inherently the case.
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Aug 16, 2016 17:14
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drilldo squirt posted:This is what the nazis believed and I think we can all agree they sucked and are bad. This is a ridiculous line of argument and surely you know it; we today think animal rights and curtailing smoking are good things, but so did the Nazis, which does not invalidate these things. You should argue against rampant racism / rabid nationalism on their merits, which certainly isn't a shallow well.
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Aug 16, 2016 17:17
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blowfish posted:Actually, that's not inherently the case. Just gonna leave this here in case you decide to edit.  Rappaport posted:This is a ridiculous line of argument and surely you know it; we today think animal rights and curtailing smoking are good things, but so did the Nazis, which does not invalidate these things. Except that we're talking about actual legislation and ordinances that discriminate against a religious minority. Which makes the Nazi comparison a much more apt one than if we were talking about animal rights and curtailing smoking.
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Aug 16, 2016 17:22
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Very interesting watching people in this thread, with either leftist or marxists views, defend patrichal values (who historically are very AGAINST "traditional values) when at the same time seeing right wing, or quasi-fascists, defend womens rights who historically have been DEFENDING "traditional values". It's like opposite day.
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Aug 16, 2016 17:26
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