Tesseraction posted:Crikey what happened between March and April? Renzi declared he will step down if he loses the referendum.
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Aug 18, 2016 12:38
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MeLKoR posted:Even if everything happened exactly as described by the lynch mob, of which I'm more than a little dubious, how is banning certain swimwear an appropriate response? Does the mayor suspect that when a woman puts a burkini and is exposed to a high level of UV rays she transforms into a man and starts attacking Westerners? Well yes. Ultra orthodox women who really want to go to the beach will have to fly to Dubai or let go of their ultra orthodoxy at least for one afternoon. In the meantime, though, them not being outside will prevent the normalization of Islamic bag garb, which means that non-ultra orthodox Muslim women will not feel pressured to dress like the fundies, which is the victory condition sought by the ban.
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Aug 18, 2016 13:30
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Cat Mattress posted:Well yes. Ultra orthodox women who really want to go to the beach will have to fly to Dubai or let go of their ultra orthodoxy at least for one afternoon. None of this is true.
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Aug 18, 2016 13:38
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Cat Mattress posted:Well yes. Ultra orthodox women who really want to go to the beach will have to fly to Dubai or let go of their ultra orthodoxy at least for one afternoon. Considering the women most likely to wear burqas are recent converts, it might be more accurate to say that the goal is to prevent white women from converting to Islam.
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Aug 18, 2016 14:46
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I love the mental gymnastics the fascist crazies here go through to justify what is pretty blatantly a discriminatory laws against a target minorty of French citizens, all of their arguments revolve around one basic concept, that in their fantasy world, all of the women who wear the Burkini have been forced to do so and are being 'abused', their logic stated here unironically that women choosing to wear a piece of cloth is the EXACT same thing as wife or children beating ( some here even said the same as nazism which is ironic given they're the ones who want to enact laws against minorties). To them, the burka or Burkini is actual physical harm. Those women they want to save aren't free citizens with agencies of their own to make their own choices. No, they are children to be told what they can or can't wear at the edge of a bayonet. I hate to break it to you guys, but a person choosing to wear a piece of cloth while going for a swim or while shopping for groceries is not the same as abuse or mass murder. I know, it's crazy. by that logic people enlarging their ear lobes or defacing themselves with tattoos should be banned from public since theyre clearly abusing themselves and shouldn't be trusted to go swim on the beach. By the way, what we're talking about here isn't necessarily the burka, which hate it all you like some people actually CHOOSE to wear. We're talking about the Burkini, which is actually the mainstream choice of clothing for women who choose wear the hijab when they want to go swimming, so with these laws you're targeting a much broader swath of French Muslims, cutting off a major leisure past time to a broad segment of the French population. Which makes this much worse for civil rights. Again as the wise forum goer said, "people should free to wear what they want".
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Aug 18, 2016 14:52
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Choose is the operative word here.
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Aug 18, 2016 14:54
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GaussianCopula posted:Renzi declared he will step down if he loses the referendum. Wow, that's a foot-shot if I ever saw one. Haha.
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Aug 18, 2016 14:55
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Can we please have a separate thread for the rights and wrongs of banning crappy wetsuits?
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Aug 18, 2016 14:59
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LemonDrizzle posted:Can we please have a separate thread for the rights and wrongs of banning crappy wetsuits? It's moving beyond the scope of this thread so I think it should be in its own "Freedom of Religion vs. Secularism" thread but maybe that's just because it also bores me too. I'd rather lol at Renzi's march into the sea.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:01
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computer parts posted:Considering the women most likely to wear burqas are recent converts, it might be more accurate to say that the goal is to prevent white women from converting to Islam. That has been the root cause of a lot of worthless prohibitionism throughout history, but personally I think that's reaching a bit here, and the root cause is more 'it's different and I don't like it'. Al-Saqr posted:I hate to break it to you guys, but a person choosing to wear a piece of cloth while going for a swim or while shopping for groceries is not the same as abuse or mass murder. I know, it's crazy. by that logic people enlarging their ear lobes or defacing themselves with tattoos should be banned from public since theyre clearly abusing themselves and shouldn't be trusted to go swim on the beach.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:04
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GaussianCopula posted:Renzi is a leftist-populist I don't know, could I get your sources? Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, can you please enlighten me?
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Aug 18, 2016 15:04
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Guavanaut posted:If that's the case, considering that the most common reason for women converting to Islam is for marriage, maybe the goal is to prevent miscegenation. I mean, considering the similar circumstances regarding black men and white women in America, even if it is an unfounded belief it could still be the reason behind the policy.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:23
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Dawncloack posted:What? The man who wants to make firing people easy-peasy in Italy with a law that is a copycat of the law that pushed unemployement up to 25% in Spain, is a leftist-populist?? If you're as far to the right as GC, everyone looks like a leftist by comparison (particularly if you've made the occasional noise about reducing austerity).
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Aug 18, 2016 15:31
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Dawncloack posted:What? The man who wants to make firing people easy-peasy in Italy with a law that is a copycat of the law that pushed unemployement up to 25% in Spain, is a leftist-populist?? 1) Huge economic crisis happens in Spain 2) Government changes laws to help ease the economic crisis 3) Goon draws conclusion that the changes caused the economic crisis
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Aug 18, 2016 15:33
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's funny how left-wingers in this thread are so blinded by their ideology He was talking about the unemployment created by these laws and retarded EU monetary masochism, not the unemployment caused by the banking crisis.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:36
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's funny how left-wingers in this thread are so blinded by their ideology  You say that while defending the austerity program despite its abject failure under any metric (except killing people I guess).
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Aug 18, 2016 15:40
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Speaking of ideology though, it's funny how the neoliberals in this thread are so blinded by their ideology that they're incapable of admitting any fault in the disasterous economic policies of the past decade.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:41
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Friendly Humour posted:Speaking of ideology though, it's funny how the neoliberals in this thread are so blinded by their ideology that they're incapable of admitting any fault in the disasterous economic policies of the past decade. Neoliberalism cannot fail it can only be failed.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:42
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computer parts posted:I mean, considering the similar circumstances regarding black men and white women in America, even if it is an unfounded belief it could still be the reason behind the policy. The standard miscegenation complaint about Muslim men and white women is that they believe that Muslim men use white women as 'practice girls' before they get married to Muslim women, as if the two categories are mutually exclusive, so there is a fear there, but it's not a "putting burkas on are white womens" one. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 15:42
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Friendly Humour posted:Speaking of ideology though, it's funny how the neoliberals in this thread are so blinded by their ideology that they're incapable of admitting any fault in the disasterous economic policies of the past decade. The idea that everybody else is deluded by ideology but you're just doing what's objectively right is one of the core tenets of the neoliberal ideology, so this hardly seems surprising.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:53
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Tesseraction posted:
What "austerity program"? I'm curious though, what do you think the "objective" of cutbacks in government spending are? I mean if the goal is to maintain an inefficient, corrupt and over-reaching state as well as artificially high living standards, then yes, your way is probably better. Friendly Humour posted:He was talking about the unemployment created by these laws and retarded EU monetary masochism, not the unemployment caused by the banking crisis. You'd have to be completely retarded to think the laws caused the unemployment.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:59
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Einbauschrank posted:Much would be won, if people would stop atrributing this misogynistic piece of clothing to "the Muslins". Only a very small minority of hardcore radicals is wearing it. This is like calling a hypothetical ban of the Ku-Klux don as "sticking it to the Whites". It's not just burqas that are banned, though. Hijabs are also banned in state-funded institutions like schools (girls have actually been expelled for wearing hijabs in class), and a lot more Muslim women wear those. The vast majority of them aren't hardcore radicals either. Majorian fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 16:07
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Geriatric Pirate posted:You'd have to be completely retarded to think the laws caused the unemployment. They literally did cause unemployment though. You can argue about whether that is relevant or not but the cause and effect is still there.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:07
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Geriatric Pirate posted:What "austerity program"? Well lookit how efficient, not-corrupt and under-reaching the state is all over Europe right now. Why, your country's economy is swirling the drain like a particularly pungent turd, good thing you didn't have those incompetent social democrats in charge!
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Aug 18, 2016 16:17
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I mean if the goal is to maintain an inefficient, corrupt and over-reaching state
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Aug 18, 2016 16:17
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Cat Mattress posted:Well yes. Ultra orthodox women who really want to go to the beach will have to fly to Dubai or let go of their ultra orthodoxy at least for one afternoon. "Black people who really want to use the bathroom will have to use the 'Coloreds Only' ones." Seriously, that's some Jim Crow-level bigotry there. quote:In the meantime, though, them not being outside will prevent the normalization of Islamic bag garb Yes, the lack of a ban on burqas in the U.S. has caused them to spread all over the place here. Completely normalized. If only we had banned it!
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Aug 18, 2016 16:19
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Majorian posted:"Black people who really want to use the bathroom will have to use the 'Coloreds Only' ones." i'm not convinced that religious gear can be reasonably compared to skin colour tbh
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Aug 18, 2016 16:30
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i mean in a sense it can, because religious symbols are used as ciphers for making racist bigotry acceptable in otherwise difficult milieus, but directly comparing a burqa ban with enforced racial segregation seems to be missing the mark a bit
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Aug 18, 2016 16:31
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Tesseraction posted:Well lookit how efficient, not-corrupt and under-reaching the state is all over Europe right now. Why, your country's economy is swirling the drain like a particularly pungent turd, good thing you didn't have those incompetent social democrats in charge! Actually Finland just returned to growth after about 8 years of doing nothing with unemployment falling almost 1 percentage point since the government gained power (and that's even with the left-wing throwing a hissy fit and going on strike). Things that changed: 3 center-right to right parties are in charge now. Isn't that weird? Not to mention for those 8 years Finland ran huge budget deficits and allowed for large increases in wages, which is pretty much the opposite of austerity. But you're still ignoring the question: What do you think the objective of austerity in Greece was? MiddleOne posted:They literally did cause unemployment though. You can argue about whether that is relevant or not but the cause and effect is still there. They "literally" did not. Workers would have lost their jobs anyway, either through firing or having their employers go bankrupt. I really can't think of anyone that thinks that the way to maintain high employment rates is by telling employers they can't fire workers. The reason these laws are implemented is to make conditions better for workers, not to improve overall employment levels.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:34
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So when do you start banning Habits? Or is this a Muslim only headwear ban?
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Aug 18, 2016 16:34
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Geriatric Pirate posted:What "austerity program"? Solid arguments from forums poster Geriatric Pirate. Hell, I'm convinced!
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Aug 18, 2016 16:35
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Guavanaut posted:Neoliberal states have been pretty great at being corrupt, ineffective, and over-reaching when it comes to prohibition, mass-surveillance, and limitation of due process. The only place that they seem to have any major objection to being overly interventionist is when it comes to private profits or employers curtailing those nasty workers' rights. Where in the world do you have better human rights than in the "neoliberal" (which is a retarded word but since you insist on using it) states of Western Europe and North America?
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Aug 18, 2016 16:35
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Geriatric Pirate posted:But you're still ignoring the question: What do you think the objective of austerity in Greece was? Simple aversion to fiscal stimulus and a desire to obtain state resources on the cheap by starving the coffers. If you're asking for the purpose of the legal reforms then of course it was to sort out the aforementioned inefficiency, corruption, etc. but the fiscal policy need not have created that and Greece instead gets to spend years upon years of starvation, joblessness and humiliation.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:38
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CommieGIR posted:So when do you start banning Habits? Or is this a Muslim only headwear ban? It's a retarded populist measure with exactly zero positive results, against people who should know better than to wear something so vulgar. The whole topic is crap and crap. Can we please stop talking about it?
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Aug 18, 2016 16:38
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CommieGIR posted:So when do you start banning Habits? Or is this a Muslim only headwear ban? Geriatric Pirate posted:Where in the world do you have better human rights than in the "neoliberal" (which is a retarded word but since you insist on using it) states of Western Europe and North America?
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Aug 18, 2016 16:39
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not convinced that religious gear can be reasonably compared to skin colour tbh V. Illych L. posted:i mean in a sense it can, because religious symbols are used as ciphers for making racist bigotry acceptable in otherwise difficult milieus, but directly comparing a burqa ban with enforced racial segregation seems to be missing the mark a bit It's not as "immutable" a thing as race, I'll admit, but given how racialized Islamophobia has become, I think the type of unfairness involved is similar enough.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:40
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Where in the world do you have better human rights than in the "neoliberal" (which is a retarded word but since you insist on using it) states of Western Europe and North America? We should be satisfied with being better than average and stop complaining about abuses of power.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:40
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Friendly Humour posted:It's a retarded populist measure with exactly zero positive results, against people who should know better than to wear something so vulgar. The whole topic is crap and crap. Can we please stop talking about it?  That was the point.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:42
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CommieGIR posted:So when do you start banning Habits? Or is this a Muslim only headwear ban? 2-4 years depending on the next election dates and subsequent rise of right wing dominated governments in many parts of Europe.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:43
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Friendly Humour posted:We should be satisfied with being better than average and stop complaining about abuses of power. Unless they're against non-white immigrants.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:44
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