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MikeCrotch posted:At one point he hears about a French army moving from Paris towards Sedan, putting themselves in ideal position to be cut off from their supply line by the Prussians. He thinks this must be a ruse and issues no orders until the next day when he gets confirmation of the maneuver by reading about it in a French newspaper. Ceci n'est pas une maskirovka.
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Aug 18, 2016 13:55
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napoleon apparently had similar reactions to the maneuvers of the prussian general staff he would spend hours and hours poring over maps to figure out where the trap was, conclude that it was beyond him and went in with a hedged assault that just utterly demolished whichever prussian division was opposing him
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Aug 18, 2016 14:38
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MikeCrotch posted:Holy poo poo, i'm reading an account of the 1870 Battle of Sedan and von Moltke the Elder nearly fucks up the battle several times because he simply cannot believe that the French would be that stupid. Welcome to the Franco Prussian War. It's a pretty clown shoes affair sometimes.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:07
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Reminder that Schlieffen was absolutely convinced that the French wouldn't attack into Alsace at the start of the Great War, because that would be utterly idiotic.
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Aug 18, 2016 15:51
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"I'll just underestimate <blank> what could go wrong!"
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Aug 18, 2016 16:09
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HEY GAL posted:edit: weren't the french cavalry in the Napoleonic Wars notorious for not taking care of their horses, or is that me remembering reading Sharpe books as a child? You certainly notice in Napoleonic descriptions of various cavalry units that people heap praise on men who take good care of their horses (e.g. Saxon cavalrymen), which suggests to me that even among 'professional' cavalryman it isn't a universal value that you're good at it. Russian regular cavalry in the Napoleonic wars, for example, was often full of men who didn't work with horses in their everyday lives a great deal and evidently had to be firmly educated as to what was needed for their care. Some things aren't even obvious about caring for horses - for example, that you might need different shoes for winter.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:16
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During the Russian Invasion due to the insane logistics of trying to handle one of the biggest armies ever assembled a lot of horses simply couldn't be fed or had to eat whatever crude stuff (rotting straw from the rooves of abandoned peasant villages) which led to the rapid decline and death of many French horses. It also led to the emergency drafting of many wild and abandoned steppe horses that were lot small and looked almost comical for the taller men on horseback. But like Disinterested said it depends also on the nation and the situation of who or what was also in charge of horses. The Napoleonic Wars killed a lot of horses as well as people now. The carnage at Waterloo was even more horrible with the addition of hundreds of horribly mained slowly dying beasts that along with many other things haunted survivors of said battle.
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Aug 18, 2016 16:22
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Reading some more about mercenaries in Bogdan Khmelnitskiy's uprising. Some guys on the Lithuanian side simply travelled so slowly that they never closed in with the enemy before their contract expired and then disbanded.
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Aug 18, 2016 17:40
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The quality of horses in general declined throughout periods of warfare as well, since aside from any grooming/logistical concerns if you are killing off most of the prize breeding stock or getting them stolen by pillaging soldiers you can't get as many good horses. Britain hadn't depleted its stock in the same way as the continent so Napoleon was jealous of the quality of British mounts at Waterloo, especially since he thought they were wasted on British cavalry commanders.ArchangeI posted:Reminder that Schlieffen was absolutely convinced that the French wouldn't attack into Alsace at the start of the Great War, because that would be utterly idiotic. I love the fact that Joffre looked at the situation and thought "The Germans are pouring through in huge numbers on my left. The right is heavily manned and backed with several enormous fortifications. Therefore, the centre must be weak!" WRONG
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Aug 18, 2016 17:42
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SeanBeansShako posted:During the Russian Invasion due to the insane logistics of trying to handle one of the biggest armies ever assembled a lot of horses simply couldn't be fed or had to eat whatever crude stuff (rotting straw from the rooves of abandoned peasant villages) which led to the rapid decline and death of many French horses. I'm prepping a big post summing up what I took from this Operation Typhoon book, but there's a similar pattern there in WW2. The Germans have a huge number of large draught horses with them, but they're losing maybe a thousand a week at least in October for want of food, but also because they're not shod for the winter (they fall and break legs, have to be killed) and when rain comes they begin to sink in to the mud up to their heads, and have to be shot - as well as being lost to combat etc. Moreover, in the Russian mud the number of horses needed to perform tasks multiplies: Bock reports seeing 18 horses moving 1 gun. The Germans start employing Russian draught horses - but they're smaller.Too small to move guns or the heavier wagons and platforms the Germans use.They become indispensable - at times the only thing that can get to the front apart from transport planes in bad weather - at moving small wagons, though. Also the story of eating roofs is repeated. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 17:44
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Big armies equal bigger logistical headaches, invading huge land masses that are notorius for having stretches of barren steppes and wasteland does not help this. Insert that quote from Princess Bride here. Also, I got a humble suggestion here. Can we have a sort of spin off thread where we can discuss milhist spin off stuff like books, games and movies?
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Aug 18, 2016 18:04
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haha I'm watching a bad but entertaining documentary about Nazi supertanks. There was a funny bit about Maus tanks. Looks like you needed 2 of them for river crossing. The one on the shore would give power by cable to the one underwater.
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Aug 18, 2016 19:01
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In case anyone hasn't seen it, here's the Panther videos by Nick Moran that we were talking about earlier. It's kind of marvelous how awful the ergonomics of this tank were. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xKYicir_i8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL2KO2maIkU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXYRQjzZZbk
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Aug 18, 2016 19:27
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chitoryu12 posted:In case anyone hasn't seen it, here's the Panther videos by Nick Moran that we were talking about earlier. It's kind of marvelous how awful the ergonomics of this tank were. How did their awfulness compare to other tanks of the same era? I've understood that Sherman was one of the few that had good ergonomics?
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Aug 18, 2016 19:34
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Hogge Wild posted:How did their awfulness compare to other tanks of the same era? I've understood that Sherman was one of the few that had good ergonomics? I can definitely say that the Sherman wouldn't break if you pulled back on both steering levers at once, and the loader didn't have to struggle around a metal bar to get a round in the gun. I'll find some videos he did on other tanks for a comparison.
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Aug 18, 2016 19:38
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So because I am a sucker for this kind of thing I picked up a discounted copy of Mark Urban's "Task Force Black: The Explosive True Story of the SAS and the Secret War in Iraq" in a local bookshop. Unlike the reviews claim it is not "a heart-stoppingly vivid account of the Iraq conflict," and is actually a rather slow paced moan about inter-allied politicking around Basra and really rather boring. On the other hand, towards the end it gets all  about the "victory" achieved over the various insurgent groups in Iraq and mentions how the region seems to have been somewhat stabilised which kind of made sense when it was published in 2010 but now is just  as gently caress.TL;DR of the book is "the SAS used US intelligence infrastructure to mount a capture operation every day, feeding intel gained there back into the infrastructure, for six years". ETA: there's also a little bit of about the SBS patrol Zero Six Bravo in the initial invasion, but THAT story is actually  as gently caress.
Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 19:58
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Haha thanks... I'll remove that one from my wish list. I almost bought it for the kindle a couple of times but never did. I'm glad, now!
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Aug 18, 2016 20:16
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If you get it for like three pounds it'll keep you going for a day or two, but there's nothing really new in it and it reads like a dude pre-emptively making excuses for the shitshow that came after publication. I'm not sorry I spent seven euro on it for bus reading, but it ain't what I was expecting for a book endorsed by the Daily Mail.
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Aug 18, 2016 20:32
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Disinterested posted:Also the story of eating roofs is repeated. Fun fact, this fucks up a poor horses digestive system something fierce. How bad? well, hope you enjoy poop scooping poop from your horses butt monsier carabinier!
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Aug 18, 2016 20:48
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I would imagine that horse quality is going to depend a lot on how good your horse caretaking logistics is, and whether your cavalrymen can actually do it themselves. If they own their own horses and work with them a lot they're probably better at looking after them and less inclined to gently caress them up, whereas if they're just rich buggers who bought a load of armour and barding and a fancy horse they're going to wrap it around a lamp post at the earliest opportunity 
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Aug 18, 2016 20:57
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this is why common soldiers spend most of their time haying, in my time as well as probably in yours! those things need something like 15 thousand calories a day
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Aug 18, 2016 21:01
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Ensign Expendable posted:Reading some more about mercenaries in Bogdan Khmelnitskiy's uprising. Some guys on the Lithuanian side simply travelled so slowly that they never closed in with the enemy before their contract expired and then disbanded.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:07
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Okay, here's Nick's videos on the T-34-85. It's got a few glaring flaws of its own (No turret basket, the driver has to lean forward to avoid getting whacked in the head as the turret traverses, etc.) but it's also lacking most of the issues of the Panther and is generally easier to see out of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRtj_TSOHjw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTnS0XS2al8
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Aug 18, 2016 21:11
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HEY GAL posted:did nobody think to write up a new contract, withhold their back pay but add the amount owed to the new accounts, give them their delivery-money in hand and promise the rest later, and make them swear new oaths? who's running the expedition, have they never been to war before? Didn't Italy end up with a bit of a problem among its city states who favored mercs where they literally couldn't fight a proper war because they relied entirely on mercs agreeing to beat each other up, and it turns out they didn't really see the point in doing proper fighting, so they all just kind of showed up, went through the motions, then got paid. And then the HRE showed up and curb stomped them? I seem to remember that being mentioned in The Prince when I read it.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:32
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no. those dudes were very Good At War. machiavelli was biased and the one time he tried to actually lead troops in combat his enemies, who were professionals, showed up and dunked on him.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:34
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So literally "No I lost because my troops were poo poo it's not my fault DAD."
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Aug 18, 2016 21:37
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Also, a video of the infamous Panzer VIII Maus (or what's left of it). Worth it for the shot of Nick sliding down the front at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PTFnl316ug
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Aug 18, 2016 21:37
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OwlFancier posted:So literally "No I lost because my troops were poo poo it's not my fault DAD."
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Aug 18, 2016 21:38
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Recognizing where your own interests and your employer's interests diverge is very much a Good At War thing.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:41
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HEY GAL posted:did nobody think to write up a new contract, withhold their back pay but add the amount owed to the new accounts, give them their delivery-money in hand and promise the rest later, and make them swear new oaths? who's running the expedition, have they never been to war before? The Sejm refused to allow more money for the war.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:53
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Tevery Best posted:The Sejm refused to allow more money for the war. So many Polish (and Lithuanian) troubles begin with "The Sejm refused..." 
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Aug 18, 2016 21:56
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Tevery Best posted:The Sejm refused to allow more money for the war.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:56
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my dad posted:So many Polish (and Lithuanian) troubles begin with "The Sejm refused..." "sejm"
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Aug 18, 2016 21:56
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A warring democracy needs its cheques and (bank) balances.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:01
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SeanBeansShako posted:Big armies equal bigger logistical headaches, invading huge land masses that are notorius for having stretches of barren steppes and wasteland does not help this. Insert that quote from Princess Bride here. Y'know Douglas MacArthur told JFK and Johnson "never start a land war in Asia"? I read it in a book by Lee Iaccoca TF it must be true
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Aug 18, 2016 22:05
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HEY GAL posted:the mercenaries don't have to know that I'm sure telling people the Sejm has money for them after it said it hasn't would look great when you come home from the campaign and need to give a report.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:06
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Tevery Best posted:I'm sure telling people the Sejm has money for them after it said it hasn't would look great when you come home from the campaign and need to give a report.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:23
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OwlFancier posted:Didn't Italy end up with a bit of a problem among its city states who favored mercs where they literally couldn't fight a proper war because they relied entirely on mercs agreeing to beat each other up, and it turns out they didn't really see the point in doing proper fighting, so they all just kind of showed up, went through the motions, then got paid. To elaborate on what HEY GAL said, Machiavelli was mostly full of poo poo and had a hard-on for proving that an army of citizen soldiers could beat professional mercenaries because of their civic patriotism or something like that. Pretty much everyone who tried this in this time period got wrecked unless their citizen soldiers also happened to be professional mercenaries. This is amusing to me for two reasons. First, reading something written in The Prince and then assuming it must be true because it was written by Machiavelli is some sort of irony. Second, Rome repeatedly endured horrifying losses in stand-up fights against mercenary armies up until they adopted a professional army and at the height of their power - in fact throughout their entire history - Rome was employing large numbers of "allies" who were non-citizens fighting due to a combination of obligation and an expectation of plunder.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:28
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HEY GAL posted:nobody cares what you say to common soldiers. pay the dudes the minimum you can get away with, lie to them about the rest, and bind them to you wiht new oaths (which these people care a lot about) Sure, but the people in the Sejm (or Sejmik, or whoever appointed you) will want to hear from you. And if you tell them you kept the troops for longer than they allowed you to (or worse, lie to them about it) they'll be whipped up in a hysteria and accusing you of plotting with the enemy, planning a coup or trying to institute absolute rule. This is conjecture, obviously, but from what I know about how it was organised in PLC those are more or less tangible fears for a commander. The Sejm was always trying to keep the King from having any leeway whatsoever in raising and disbanding the army and in providing funds for it and were notoriously ready to downplay Cossack uprisings as "not as serious as you're trying to convince us it is" (in no small part because the Kings actually did often overplay very minor problems to nobles from the other side of the country in order to get them to vote for special taxes or extra money for war or whatever).
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Aug 18, 2016 22:33
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The best part of that panther video is that the speedometer goes up to 100 loving KPH. edit: this may explain my VW's goes up to 160 MPH.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:33
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