Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

I'm sorry. Here's a reislaufer to make up for it

I would describe his codpiece as acceptable, but is expression as exceptional.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 04:54

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 12, 2024 18:46

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

CatsPajamas posted:

Does anyone know of any good resources for comparing how wars are viewed/taught by different countries? I've been reading Lessons: How Textbooks from Around the World Portray U.S. History which does some of that for wars the US was involved in, but it would be great to have more than just that.

This book that I'm wringing out in to the thread has a section about competing Soviet/Russian views vs Western views, a lot of which stems from Westerners more or less buying the perceptions of German generals and Russians buying the perceptions of Soviet generals, both too uncritically. I'll whip it out in more detail in the next few days.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 05:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

That's Swiss/German fashion, which the Italians probably purloined eventually.

swiss, look at the orientation of the crosses

edit: and it worked both ways, i've heard that german/swiss mercenary fashion was taken from fashion for rich italians, then modified, then civilians picked that back up from them because mercenaries were sexy

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Aug 20, 2016

# ? Aug 20, 2016 10:21

aphid_licker: Jan 7, 2009

Are we just posting MAJOR HUNKS now?

Because

This is apparently the Spanish Foreign Legion. Kinda love those uniforms.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 11:18

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

aphid_licker posted:

Are we just posting MAJOR HUNKS now?

Because

This is apparently the Spanish Foreign Legion. Kinda love those uniforms.

haha

Lieutenant Laaksonen would be proud :finland:

# ? Aug 20, 2016 11:56

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

Elyv posted:

Oh god, the end of the first Punic War. With the exception of a couple of generals ( Xanthippus, Hamilcar, maybe a couple of others), the entire war was prosecuted incompetently by the Carthaginians from start to finish, but the end of war might have been the very worst.

So the First Punic War was 23 years long and at the end, the Carthaginians lost Sicily and had to pay a huge war indemnity. Hamilcar Barca, who at this point was the overall commander of the Carthaginian army in Sicily, made sure his army came back with him and iirc promised them that they'd get full pay. So they get back to North Africa and the Carthaginian Senate decides that, hey, we have this indemnity to Rome and we lost Sicily and we can't afford to pay the mercenaries. They send a general to tell them that, hey, we're not giving you all your money. The mercenaries are not happy about this. They kill the general and start to pillage towns in North Africa. The Carthaginians suddenly find money for more mercenaries and Hamilcar defeats the mercenary army. Also, during the war, Rome manufactured an excuse and seized Sardinia and Corsica. So by saving the money from paying mercenaries, they fought another 3 years of war in their home territory, had to hire new mercenaries, and lost more territory. Great job, guys!

Gustave Flaubert (of Madame Bovary fame) wrote Salammbo, a great (and extremely gruesome) historical novel covering this episode. The archeology that he relied on is presumably well out of date by now but the book's worth reading for his recreation of a dead civilization that comes across to us as alien in the extreme:

quote:

But their impatience was excited by another and more acrid longing: Matho's death has been promised for the ceremony.

It had been proposed at first to flay him alive, to pour lead into his entrails, to kill him with hunger; he should be tied to a tree, and an ape behind him should strike him on the head with a stone; he had offended Tanith, and the cynocephaluses of Tanith should avenge her. Others were of opinion that he should be led about on a dromedary after linen wicks, dipped in oil, had been inserted in his body in several places;--and they took pleasure in the thought of the large animal wandering through the streets with this man writhing beneath the fires like a candelabrum blown about by the wind.

But what citizens should be charged with his torture, and why disappoint the rest? They would have liked a kind of death in which the whole town might take part, in which every hand, every weapon, everything Carthaginian, to the very paving-stones in the streets and the waves in the gulf, could rend him, and crush him, and annihilate him. Accordingly the Ancients decided that he should go from his prison to the square of Khamon without any escort, and with his arms fastened to his back; it was forbidden to strike him to the heart, in order that he might live the longer; to put out his eyes, so that he might see the torture through; to hurl anything against his person, or to lay more than three fingers upon him at a time.

The whole book is pretty much like that: heaven knows what Flaubert was smoking when he penned it.

Pistol_Pete fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Aug 20, 2016

# ? Aug 20, 2016 12:17

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Pistol_Pete posted:

a dead civilization that comes across to us as alien in the extreme

don't say mean things about fin-de-siecle France

# ? Aug 20, 2016 12:22

NLJP: Aug 26, 2004

CatsPajamas posted:

Man it's been awesome reading this thread and the previous one! Really appreciate people have put into some absolutely fantastic posts here!

Thanks for the links to Inside the Chieftain's Hatch as well, since those videos have been very interesting. I was reading the articles Nicholas Moran has written , and in the forum link for one of the articles about his experience with troops from other countries a surprisingly polite discussion came up about the American/Canadian/British different perspectives on the War of 1812. I've been interested in that kind of comparative history, and after seeing a much less polite argument on a different site with a Russian poster telling folks how WWII actually went I tried to find resources that compared different views of war or other international events, but surprisingly most everything I could find was about Japanese war crime denials and textbook controversies.

Does anyone know of any good resources for comparing how wars are viewed/taught by different countries? I've been reading Lessons: How Textbooks from Around the World Portray U.S. History which does some of that for wars the US was involved in, but it would be great to have more than just that.

This has always been my favourite example: http://m.dw.com/en/joint-german-french-history-book-a-history-maker-itself/a-2078903 I don't know its long term success but a very cool initiative.

Anecdotally, it took my mother six months after she moved from sweden to switzerland to realise they were learning about the same war (30yw of course)

# ? Aug 20, 2016 13:25

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

NLJP posted:

Anecdotally, it took my mother six months after she moved from sweden to switzerland to realise they were learning about the same war (30yw of course)

the swiss version of that war is funny as hell
"a bunch of larger powers marched through here"
"we involved ourselves in their politics and they involved themselves in ours, local vendettas are great"
"halberd murder"
"everyone died"

# ? Aug 20, 2016 13:29

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Crossposting from PYF, one soldier's account of the Warsaw Uprising.

quote:

�In Warsaw I partook in 19 fights on knives and bayonets. In cellars. Cellars were a second Warsaw. When you fight in a cellar, it's quiet, you don't see anything. I was faster. I killed that Pole. Warsaw � my most terrible experiences.

...

�We were entering Warsaw walking the cobblestones. Poles were shooting but we couldn�t see them. White flags on buildings. I jumped through a broken window. On the stairs I saw a man and a woman shot once in their foreheads."

�We were storming house by house, everywhere we saw civilians, women and children. Everyone had a hole in the forehead. We made our way to the SS barracks. Another company that drove the lorries took a wrong turn and got straight in front of Polish positions. Some of the trucks were on flames; soldiers were running for their lives. Many were running straight into the Polish line of fire. The sergeant fell a few steps from me."

�The next day we were ordered to take over a road. We went through small gardens. Our commander Lieutenant Fels was rushing us forward. We had to blow up the doors of the building from which the fiercest fire was shot. We threw hand grenades and jumped in. The Poles surrounded us. A short knife fight and we escape into the bushes. Four of the guys from our railway wagon died. Once again Fels was driving us to attack, but the Poles were well hidden. We could not withdraw because they were shooting at us from the back, as well. All night we were sitting in these small gardens like scared animals. I was thirsty. I found some tomatoes. We were constantly shot at. The next evening the infantry came to the rescue but we made no progress. Then a SS unit arrived. They looked strange. They had no ranks on their uniforms and reeked of vodka. They attacked instantly screaming hooorrraaay and were dying by dozens. Their commander dressed in a black leather coat was raging in the back pushing his men to attack. A tank arrived. We rushed with the SS troopers behind it. A few meters from the buildings the tank was hit. It exploded and a soldier�s hat flew high up. We ran away again. The second tank was hesitating. We were covering the front as the SS-men were rushing civilians out of their homes and positioning them around the tank, forcing some to sit on the armor. For the first time in my life I saw such a thing. They were speeding up a Polish woman in a long coat. She was holding a little girl in her arms. People crowded on the tank were helping her to climb up. Someone took the girl. When he was handing her back to the mother the tank started moving forward. The child fell down under the tracks and got crushed. The woman was screaming in terror. One of the SS-men frowned and shot the woman in the head. They continued driving. Those who tried to escape were killed by SS-men."

�The attack was successful. The Poles were retreating. We chased behind them. Behind us civilians were getting out of cellars with their arms up. They were screaming nicht partisan (we are not partisans). I didn�t see what was happening there because we were exchanging fire with the Poles but I heard as this SS commander in the leather coat was shouting to his men to kill everyone, including women and children."

�We followed the Poles into one of the houses. There were three of us. We were on the ground floor. The Poles were attacking from upper floors and the cellar. All night we were burning furniture to see something. Time after time we were fighting bayonet to bayonet. At dawn I saw that there are only two of us. The third soldier had his throat slit. There were bodies in every room. A sniper was shooting at us from the roof of a house across the street. We�ve hit him, he fell down but his leg caught on the construction beam. He was hanging upside down. He lived for a long time before he died. When we were returning, bodies of Poles were scattered all over the streets. There was no other way than to walk on dead people. In the heat they were decaying rapidly. The sun was covered with dust and smoke. Plenty of flies and worms. We were covered with blood. The uniforms were sticky. This fanatic fool Lieutenant Fels welcomed us. Where have you been, you cheeky pigs? He was praising the SS for a good job. I couldn�t eat anything. We were all throwing up."

...

�After a few days of fighting we were assigned to Dirlewanger. Three Sturmpioniere for each SS platoon. Our job was to make way for SS-men, blow up all obstacles and doors. We were jumping into houses and chasing out people. We were Fels� people but during the fight we were under Dirlewanger�s command."

�Always in the lead. Run, place the explosive and after the detonation jump into the building. We were followed by Dirlewanger�s horde. They were looking like bums. Dirty and shredded uniforms. Not all of them had weapons; they were taking them from the dead. Every morning they were getting vodka. We, the Sturmpioniere did too. We were drinking on an empty stomach; before attack one does not eat. If you get shot in an empty stomach, you may survive; if you are shot in a full stomach you die in pain."

�Dirlewanger walked in the rear, sometimes rode in a tank, always under a good cover. He rushed his men forward. Those who lagged behind were shot by him in the back."

�Usually a large crowbar was enough to open doors of buildings and houses. To open stronger ones we were setting explosives or clusters of three grenades. The heavy, two-winged doors of the Bishop�s Palace blew out in two directions. Inside everything was purple. In the dining room food was set on the table. Still warm. We didn�t try it, because we were afraid it was poisoned."

�It's important to know where to set the explosives. From the side, in the middle. All depends where you want the doors to fly after the explosion and everything must be done as silent as possible because the Poles were standing behind doors listening and shooting. So we sometimes scratched opposing ends of doors to mislead the Poles."

�I was setting explosives under big doors, somewhere in Old Town. From inside we heard Nicht schie�en! Nicht schie�en! (don't shoot). The doors opened and a nurse appeared with a tiny white flag. We went inside with fixed bayonets. A huge hall with beds and mattresses on the floor. Wounded were everywhere. Besides Poles there were also wounded Germans. They begged the SS-men not to kill the Poles. A Polish officer, a doctor and 15 Polish Red Cross nurses surrendered the military hospital to us. The Dirlewangerers were following us. I hid one of the nurses behind the doors and managed to lock them. I heard after the war that she has survived. The SS-men killed all the wounded. They were breaking their heads with rifle butts. The wounded Germans were screaming and crying in despair. After that, the Dirlewangerers ran after the nurses; they were ripping clothes off them. We were driven out for guard duty. We heard women screaming. In the evening, on Adolph Hitler's Square [now Piłsudzki Square] there was a roar as loud as during boxing fights. So I and my friend climbed the wall to see what was happening there. Soldiers of all units: Wehrmacht, SS, Kaminski's Cossacks [ RONA ], boys from Hitlerjugend; whistles, exhortations. Dirlewanger stood with his men and laughed. The nurses from the hospital were rushed through the square, naked with hands on their heads. Blood ran down their legs. The doctor was dragged behind them with a noose on his neck. He wore a rag, red maybe from blood and a thorn crown on top of the head. All were lead to the gallows where a few bodies were hanging already. When they were hanging one of the nurses, Dirlewanger kicked the bricks she was standing on. I couldn't watch that anymore. We ran to our quarters, but before we reached them we saw Kaminski�s Cossacks rushing with civilians. We called those 'Cossacks Hiwis' � from Hilfswillige (volunteers, willing to help). Next to them a Polish pregnant woman fell down. One of the Hiwis turned back and whipped her, she tried to escape on knees, but they killed her running over her with horses.�

�We were sleeping in cellars. In the quarters, between attacks, we drank a lot of vodka; we talked a lot, too. 'Maybe tomorrow I will be wounded and return home', we were saying."

�We had nightmares. I screamed in my sleep. Then my companions were waking me up with cold water saying 'Bubi, Du hast den Warschaukoller' (Bubi, you have the Warsaw madness)."

�We slept in clothes, continuous alarms; Raus! Raus! Fels yelled. More than once we could hear the Poles on the other side of the wall. Once they even sang a lively song. Sometimes I cried. When you attack you are not afraid, but in the quarters you shake. We drank a lot.�

�We demolished a wall which was obstructing the view of a big yard. SS planned to storm the buildings on the other side of it. When a colleague was battering the doors with a crowbar, I saw a Pole on my left side. I pulled my colleagues into a hole in the wall, but both got hit. One got the whole magazine, the second in the lungs, the bullet bounced from the dog tag. When he was breathing, blood was pouring out of his mouth. I put soil in his lung wound. I was lying with the dead and the wounded. I pressed against the wall. My colleague groaned, the Poles tossed grenades. I threw one back, the second rolled out of my reach. I was red from the blood and flesh. In the afternoon four soldiers from Wehrmacht came with stretchers. We managed to break through, but the wounded colleague got three shots and died. I couldn't say a word; I shivered and was throwing up. The Major gave me a day to rest, so I saw the burial of my colleagues. They took their shoes off, threw them into a ditch with other killed and sprinkled with lime. Polish civilians had to do everything."

�Colleagues were perishing, new ones were sent to us. I had stupid luck, maybe because when Fels forced me to action, he wished me to �die like a dog�.� (Schenk is laughing). �I don't think he liked me. Our group of assault engineers was called then the Himmelfahrtskommando (Commando of Ascension), because we always were first, and the Poles were shooting, no one knew from where. The bullet whizzes and you fly to heaven. We quickly learned from clever Poles how to hide. They could shoot from under a slightly risen roofing tile. Many fought in German uniforms and spoke German very well. We couldn't wear our metal helmets as Poles were wearing them too. We were afraid we would start shooting at our own troops."

�In the beginning I was a bad shooter. I was punished for lack of aim. I couldn't shut my left eye. They were suspecting I'm simulating. They sent me to a doctor and he told me to shoot from the other hand. I became a left eye shooter. It was quite handy in street fights."

�Once in a hand-to-hand combat a Pole yanked the rifle from a new colleague. Fels came in with SS-men and ordered him to retrieve the gun. The boy was shaking all over, but Fels drew his own gun and ordered him to follow the Poles. The boy returned quickly badly wounded with a knife; he was screaming and bleeding."

�I was left alone once more. My storm troop mates were heavily wounded with knife and bayonet. It was August 6th. From that point on the dates are blurry. I can only remember the heaviest fights in a certain order, but without dates. I remember, that on August 14th I got a postcard from the pastor from Minefield; last message from home. On September 15 I was looking at the other bank of the Vistula River. I saw a Russian tank Then a second and third. They came to the bank. We all panicked. The Russians must have had a great view of our positions; they weren't shooting. The tanks disappeared between houses.�

�I was lying in an apartment on the third floor. A SS officer ordered us to hold the house. The whole apartment was covered with a thick layer of sand. Good idea, I was admiring the owners. I would do the same. They must have worked hard. The sand protected the apartment from fire. �After the war all they will need to do is remove it,� I thought. I was throwing gasoline bottles through the window at the cinema on the other side of street. Houses attacked with such bottles usually were starting to burn. I thought we smoked out the Poles, but they were still shooting and tossing grenades. In the dust of the last detonation I started to run downstairs. When I moved by a window on the staircase, I felt pain like from a strike of a whip and something hot. Hands and face in blood. I felt I was seriously wounded. My friends too. They took my pants off and started to roll on the floor laughing. I had a small mark on my butt. A bullet hit the canteen with coffee.�

�Sometimes in the movies, there are scenes from the Uprising, but there is nothing that I've seen. I haven't told that to anybody yet with such great detail. You ask about everything. It�s your right, but everything is coming to life again. Back then we had no idea that those killed will never die, that they will always be with us. Everything happened so quickly. Shouting, shooting. Singular faces. All this is stuck in my memory very strongly.�

(Schenk hides his face in his hands).

�We blew up the doors, I think of a school. Children were standing in the hall and on the stairs. Lots of children. All with their small hands up. We looked at them for a few moments until Dirlewanger ran in. He ordered to kill them all. They shot them and then they were walking over their bodies and breaking their little heads with butt ends. Blood streamed down the stairs. There is a memorial plaque in that place stating that 350 children were killed. I think there were many more, maybe 500."

�Or that Polish woman" (Schenk doesn't remember which action it was). "Every time, when we stormed the cellars and women were inside the Dirlewanger soldiers raped them. Many times a group raped the same woman, quickly, still holding weapons in their hands. Then after one of the fights, I was standing shaking by the wall and couldn't calm my nerves. Dirlewanger soldiers burst in. One of them took a woman. She was pretty. She wasn't screaming. Then he was raping her, pushing her head strongly against the table, holding a bayonet in the other hand. First he cut open her blouse. Then one cut from stomach to throat. Blood gushed. Do you know, how fast blood congeals in August?"

�There is also that small child in Dirlewanger�s hands. He took it from a woman who was standing in the crowd in the street. He lifted the child high and then threw it into the fire. Then he shot the mother."

�Or that little girl who unexpectedly came out of the cellar. She was thin and short, something about 12 years old. Torn clothes, disheveled hair. On one side we, on the other Poles. She was standing by the wall not knowing where to run. She raised her hands, and said Nicht Partizan. I waved with my hand that she shouldn't be afraid and should come closer. She was walking with her little hands up. She was squeezing something in one of her hands. She was very close when I heard a shot. Her head bounced. A piece of bread fell out from her hand. In the evening the platoon leader, he was from Berlin, came up to me and said proudly: �It was a master shot. Wasn�t it?� He smiled proudly."

�Frequently children came to us. They couldn't find their parents. They wanted bread. A small Polish boy brought us food when we were on guard duty. I don't think he was a captive. I don't know. I was then on guard in a cellar of a textile factory. The boy didn't know German, but we could communicate with gestures. When I had, I gave him cigarettes. Passing by was a SS-man. He waved at the boy to follow him. The boy went after him. Then I heard a shot. I ran. The dead boy was lying on the stairs. The SS-man pointed the gun at me. He gave me a long look, but eventually left. This is how matters were in Warsaw."

�Our mascot was a crippled boy. Also 12 years old. He lost one leg, but could jump very fast on the other one. He was very proud of that. He always jumped around the soldiers, back and forth. We said it was for luck. He helped a little. One day the SS-men called him. He jumped to them willingly. They were laughing and asked him to jump to the trees. From far I saw that they put 2 grenades into his bag. He didn't notice. He was jumping and they laughed at him shouting: Schneller, schneller! (faster, faster). The boy blew up."

�I usually wake up very early, my wife sleeps longer. Sometimes in a half-dream I see killed people in front of me. Sometimes I am trying to count those I killed myself, but I can't.�

�There was a shortage of water in Warsaw. There was a bathtub at a dressing point, where fresh water was stored. Once I jumped into it. Many others jumped too. A paramedic I knew told me about lots of underwear left in an abandoned cellar. It was blue, non-regulatory. I got rid of the military rags and took the blue ones. Later on I got one week of penitentiary company from the sergeant. I had to carry mines on the river's bank."

�My second penitentiary watch was for a priest. We blew up the back door to a monastery � very heavy, they lead to a cellar. The monastery, a huge building near the Old Town, was already very damaged by bombs and grenades. Two of us jumped inside. There was a priest standing in front of us. He held a wafer and a chalice in his hands. Maybe this was an impulse, I don't know. We genuflected and took the communion. Then a third from our group ran in and did the same. SS-men stormed in and the usual shots, screams, and groans could be heard. The nuns were in habits. A few hours later I saw that priest in Dirlewangerers' hands. They drank wine from the chalice, the wafers were scattered and broken. They were pissing on a cross that was leaning against the wall. They were torturing the priest: he had a bloody face, torn cassock. We took that priest from them, it was an impulse. They were surprised, but so drunk, that they didn't know what was happening. The next day they also didn't remember what happened. We passed the priest to our battalion. I didn't hear about him anymore. But on the road we meet Fels. For the priest I got a solitary guard duty on a bridge. I think it was the Kierbiedz Bridge. Bridges on the Vistula River were already demolished, but part some of the spans were still standing. The Russians had a machine gun nest on their side of the river and we had ours on our side. Day and night I had to stand in the middle of the bridge and gather intelligence. I hid behind steel cranes. The night was peaceful. From time to time the guns were shooting at each other, more into the air because of large distance. During the day the Russians were moving around rather carefree. In the back small cars were bringing food and officers with wide epaulettes observed through binoculars our part of Warsaw. Soldiers were sun tanning."

�On another penal guard, hidden in a bale of fabric in a textile factory, I watched the Poles. In case of attack I had to shoot a red flare and run away. There were 40 of them. A uniformed officer was leading the group. They looked pitiful. Many were wounded. I saw women with weapons, civilians, and children. Their weaponry was poor. In the evening I returned with a report. We stormed that hideout in the morning."

�I don't remember when we decided to kill this pig Fels. To survive because he constantly pushed us ahead. Seven or eight of us drew rifles at random. Two were loaded. When the occasion came up that Fels was in front of us we shot him in the back. He fell and we escaped. The new commander was much more humane.�

�Today I don't know if we blew up the State Securities Printing House or maybe the Polish Bank. It was somewhere downtown. We couldn't conquer that target for a long time. They told us to dig a tunnel. We dug in pairs, wearing only underpants. We changed in the fore. When I was in front, I smelled a strange odor and then my colleague stopped taking soil from me. I crawled to him; he was dead. The tunnel exited into a cellar. I heard Poles. They probably took it over. At night I crawled out of the hole and walking through the cellars managed to rejoin ours. I couldn't recognize the sentry. He ordered me to lie on the ground. I screamed my name and password: Heidekrug (pot of the heather). He asked why I'm clad in underpants only. Eventually he believed me."

�The next day they brought a �Goliath�. Civilians had to lead its path, because Poles learned how to detonate a �Goliath� at our lines and many soldiers died. The Goliath made a hole in the wall. The whole night we were chasing the Poles in the cellars and on the floors. In the morning a tank came and the building was taken. Lots of gold coins lay about in the cellars. We were stuffing our pockets so full so that our pants were falling off. Then the gold disappeared. The boys were whispering that Dirlewanger took it somewhere.�

�That was probably my last action in Warsaw. We were storming some building, I ran through a field. A wounded soldier lay on the ground. I gave him some water from my canteen, than ran forward to blow some doors. The SS was moving behind us. When I ran back, Dirlewanger stopped me. He pointed to the wounded soldier: �You gave water to this pig?� Only then did I notice, that on a German uniform the wounded had a dirty white-red armband."

"�Shoot him!� Dirlewanger handed me his pistol."

"I stood motionless, sick of all of that. Dirlewanger was so furious, that I couldn't understand what he was shouting. The Pole looked at me. I will never forget his eyes. In Warsaw I learned to recognize if a wounded would survive the next ten minutes or a couple of hours. When one sees so many people dying you just know how long they will live. One of Dirlewanger SS-men grabbed the gun from me and shot the Pole."

�Dirlewanger shouted that he will shoot me on site. Then some Wehrmacht soldiers arrived so he began to threaten me with court martial. One infantry officer started a violent discussion with him. I ran away."

�By the end of September three Poles approached me with their hands up. They handed over a machine gun and two pistols. One of them spoke perfect German. I stood alone at my post. I didn't know what to do. I said they have to wait, and better not be noticed by anyone. I was lucky, I quickly found our new lieutenant. He took the POWs personally and escorted them to the SS."

�The last stronghold of the Uprising surrendered. Some high-ranking officer came, as a representative of the nation, with a white flag. We led him to our battalion commander. I saw there our Major Wullenberg, Dirlewanger and other commanders. After a couple of hours the Poles arrived, with a vast number of people following them. All the wounded were placed in a huge warehouse of a vinegar factory. We were ordered to leave. From the outside we heard screams and shots. I know what happened there."

�During the last days of the Uprising I ran across Fels. He was seriously wounded, but survived our shots. I carefully avoided him. I saw Dirlewanger for the last time � he was walking among the ruins accompanied by two beautiful women. The city was burning, dead bodies were everywhere in the streets. His leather coat was worn out. The women � one blonde, one brunette � were very elegant, clean. They were chattering away happily. I didn't know if these women were Polish � I was too far."

�The remnants of Warsaw were being blown up by demolition squads. We were relocated, but in November we returned to Warsaw once again. We were playing soccer. The ball fell into a cellar. I jumped in to bring it back. In the cellar there were uncountable human bodies, now almost skeletons.�...

# ? Aug 20, 2016 15:12

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Well, that sure was :smith:

as poo poo.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 15:25

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Here's the rest of the story: http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/schenk.htm

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:08

SimonCat: Aug 12, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo; College Slice

Of course the Australians would make this tank:

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:11

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Siivola posted:

Well, that sure was as poo poo.

gently caress the SS now, gently caress the SS always and gently caress the SS forever. Now I need a drink reading all that.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:24

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

SeanBeansShako posted:

gently caress the SS now, gently caress the SS always and gently caress the SS forever. Now I need a drink reading all that.

Don't worry I'm cooking up another Nazi death count post.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:26

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Anyone know anything about Werhmacht units turning on the SS now?

SimonCat posted:

Of course the Australians would make this tank:

Yaaaaaaay.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:27

Pornographic Memory: Dec 17, 2008

gently caress me that was horrible but I couldn't tear my eyes away

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:30

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Pornographic Memory posted:

gently caress me that was horrible but I couldn't tear my eyes away

The worst bit of all of this is that is only a glimpse of the madness and human suffering that was the Eastern Front of the 2nd World War.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:32

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

SeanBeansShako posted:

The worst bit of all of this is that is only a glimpse of the madness and human suffering that was the Eastern Front of the 2nd World War.

I was going to go for them not making a similar attempt on Dirlewanger, but that works too.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:34

Hunt11: Jul 24, 2013; Grimey Drawer

I always knew that what happened in Warsaw was brutal, but that was still horrifying to read.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:45

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

The best part is that it happened under the guns of the soviets because they wanted the SS to do their dirty work for them

# ? Aug 20, 2016 16:50

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

HEY GAL posted:

swiss, look at the orientation of the crosses

Not all the outfits have crosses and the cross on "M" is very obviously Burgundian.

quote:

edit: and it worked both ways, i've heard that german/swiss mercenary fashion was taken from fashion for rich italians, then modified, then civilians picked that back up from them because mercenaries were sexy

I find that hard to believe. Careful examination of Germanic art from the late 15th century like D�rer shows a much clearer lineage to the 16th century style that we know. The patterned slashing in particular has always been presented to me as a Swiss innovation, and I haven't been able to find any examples of it in late 15th century Italian art. This D�rer from 1489 already shows slashing at the shoulders
http://duerer.gnm.de/tintenwiki/Drei_Kriegsleute,_Berlin_KuKa,_KdZ_2_Tinte

The Italians seem to have preferred longer tunics and tabards, and high collars as we can see in this piece by Lorenzo Costa the Elder from 1488, depicting Giovanni II Bentivoglio and his family:

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/maggiore/triumph.jpg

There are a few exceptions to these fashion trends, but they are exceptions. Consider this detail from Ghirlandaio's Adoration of the Shepherds http://www.wga.hu/art/g/ghirland/domenico/5sassett/shepherd/shepher3.jpg

Notice that althoug there is someone in a doublet and hose, they are a foot soldier, not a noble, and there is no apparent slashing. Noble clothing in Ghirlandaio is instead in-line with other Italian fashion as we see from this c. 1490 portrait of Francesco Sassetti and His Son

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/ghirland/domenico/7panel/12sasset.jpg

The ostrich feathers also seem to have been a Swiss or German fashion innovation, as almost all the Italian hats I've seen are featherless.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 17:26

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

The Italians seem to have preferred longer tunics and tabards, and high collars as we can see in this piece by Lorenzo Costa the Elder from 1488, depicting Giovanni II Bentivoglio and his family:

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/maggiore/triumph.jpg

color me corrected.

and look at the youngest girl in that picture, she is so sassy

edit: i wonder if this clothing thing has the same reason why italian noblewomen in the 17th century don't wear corsets as much as their counterparts over the alps--it can be hot down there

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 20, 2016

# ? Aug 20, 2016 17:30

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

HEY GAL posted:

edit: i wonder if this clothing thing has the same reason why italian noblewomen in the 17th century don't wear corsets as much as their counterparts over the alps--it can be hot down there

Dunno! Italian fashion in this period seems really stuffy for the men (Sassetti has fur-trimmed sleeves!) so maybe things weren't quite as hot as we expect. edit: Alternatively maybe the business season worked a lot like the warring season, so Italian nobles would get their portraits done between autumn and spring, i.e. business time.

Also, look at the bottom left corner of the Adoration detail. The bearded guy is wearing a cowboy hat.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Aug 20, 2016

# ? Aug 20, 2016 17:51

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

i love that picture of sassetti and the child so much--it's so calm, but loving.

ed: also, the damask on the kid's clothing looks like a couch, but in a good way

# ? Aug 20, 2016 17:54

Plan Z: May 6, 2012

SeanBeansShako posted:

gently caress the SS now, gently caress the SS always and gently caress the SS forever. Now I need a drink reading all that.

The most disgusting thing to me is how they're slowly achieving some kind of exalted status as an "elite fighting force." To say nothing of the fact that they were largely poor-to-acceptable fighters, I'm more bothered that they're treated as anything but jackbooted monsters.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:02

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Plan Z posted:

The most disgusting thing to me is how they're slowly achieving some kind of exalted status as an "elite fighting force." To say nothing of the fact that they were largely poor-to-acceptable fighters, I'm more bothered that they're treated as anything but jackbooted monsters.

Yeah, the SS have nothing particularly redeeming about them.

Of course, reading stuff like this, it's really easy to see why people go "X atrocity? Probably the SS" whenever the Heer get brought up...

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:06

Pershing: Feb 21, 2010; John "Black Jack" Pershing
Hard Fucking Core

Not to criticise you, Cythereal, but I think an argument could be made to link instead and mark with a :nms:

tag.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:07

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Plan Z posted:

The most disgusting thing to me is how they're slowly achieving some kind of exalted status as an "elite fighting force." To say nothing of the fact that they were largely poor-to-acceptable fighters, I'm more bothered that they're treated as anything but jackbooted monsters.

I think if anything that's changing in a positive direction.

Pershing posted:

Not to criticise you, Cythereal, but I think an argument could be made to link instead and mark with a tag.

Yeah, I'd agree.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:10

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

spectralent posted:

Yeah, the SS have nothing particularly redeeming about them.

They eagerly wasted a lot of German war materiel that could have been used better by the professional soldiers along with their lives. But still, gently caress them.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:10

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Endman posted:

I actually struggle to think of a time where it was more fancy to be a soldier than in late-15th/early-16th century italy.

I choose to believe that's the movie poster for King Charles II's Angels.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:23

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

SeanBeansShako posted:

They eagerly wasted a lot of German war materiel that could have been used better by the professional soldiers along with their lives. But still, gently caress them.

Glad I read the whole thing to get the additional context that Schenk (the narrator) was whatever the Belgian equivalent of malgre-nous was, and Dirlewanger was a convicted child molester.

I don't know why it still surprises me when guys turn out to be awful pieces of poo poo beyond even being in the SS.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:37

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

German military humour:

quote:

On the road to Kalninin on 12-13th October the Panzer advance wound up sharing it�s road of advance with fleeing columns of Soviets. German tanks and motorised infantry were advancing through the middle of Soviet troops. Heinz Otto Fausten, who took part in the march, recalled: �We dashed on, through scenes of total disorder. Red Army commanders swore at us from their vehicles, believing that we were Russians fleeing from the front. Enemy vehicles cut into our column, joined us for a while, and then, realising our identity swerved off again. It was quite incredible.� The operations officer of the 1st Panzer Division, Lieutenant Colonel Walther Wenck, who, rather uncharacteristicaly for a German staff officer, was renowned for his wry humour, reported back to the corps: �Rusian units, although not included in our march tables, are attempting continuously to share our road space, and thus are partly responsible for the delay of our advance on Kalinin. Please advise what to do?� The message was returned: �As usual, 1st Panzer Division has priority along the route of advance. Reinforce traffic control!!� On the same night Major Carl Wagener, the operations officer at Panzer Group 3, recorded a routine question to the leading panzer company, �Who is driving point?� The answer came back: �Ivan�.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:52

MrMojok: Jan 28, 2011

Polyakov, these mine posts are FANTASTIC! Thank you.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 18:56

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

MrMojok posted:

Polyakov, these mine posts are FANTASTIC! Thank you.

Yes! Those posts have exactly the right amount of detail.

It's stuff like that which makes me wish I could have the Milhist thread printed out as a coffee-table book.

# ? Aug 20, 2016 19:01