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Kalman posted:Is there something they're trying to tell us about Scalzi??? He's worked really hard at fitting in with the SF crowd.  Edit: Abalieno, if you're really interested in this subject How to Suppress Women's Writing by Joanna Russ is a good place to start. Drakhoran fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 05:38
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It feels like every time I'm like "Oh poo poo look at all the posts in this TBB thread" it ends up being Abalieno being a loving idiot and somebody else trying to reason with him.
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Aug 24, 2016 06:25
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Unlike most derails, though, this has been a really interesting opportunity to talk about perceptions of SF and gender norms. But maybe that's just me.  The whole topic reminds me really strongly of the whole "women in software" phenomenon, where ads of "boys do science, girls screw it up" and selective personality tests created a self-reinforcing cycle of "men = STEM" bullshit that wiped out the self-reinforcing perception/reality cycle of "girls do software" (conveniently also walling women off from the shittons of money that started pouring in). Science and STEM in general is also non-coincidentally a big part of sci-fi too, obviously, and that definitely plays a big role in the gendered perceptions of the genre regardless of the medium. The reality is that lots of people like lots of different things and perceptions are almost universally bullshit. No one is 100% average, no one is normal.
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Aug 24, 2016 09:12
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So the third Laundry book seems to be much better than the second. Makes it much easier to get past the cringe-worthy nerd stuff.
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Aug 24, 2016 10:45
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A Proper Uppercut posted:So the third Laundry book seems to be much better than the second. Makes it much easier to get past the cringe-worthy nerd stuff. The series has its ups and downs, and as a rule, the odd-numbered ones seem to be better than the even-numbered ones for some reason, but Jennifer Morgue is generally considered the lowest point, so if you're past that hump, everything else should be reasonably smooth going.
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Aug 24, 2016 11:52
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fritz posted:There was a list going around the fan community a while back titled "60 essential SF reads": This list isn't great, it's far too heavily weighted towards the recent past and there's a lot of mediocre choices like To Say Nothing of The Dog over Doomsday Book or Foreigner over Downbelow Station. Nothing by Doris Lessing either, when you leave off a nobel prize winner something's not right. Here's a slightly different list of great SF books: Frankenstein By Mary Shelley The Last Man By Mary Shelley (sometimes the greats get two slots) The Description of a New World, Called the Blazing-World by Margaret Cavendish Carmen Dog By Carol Emshwiller The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle The Steerswoman by Rosemary Kirstein The Female Man by Joanna Russ Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler Cordelia's Honor by Lois McMaster Bujold Uhura's Song by Janet Kagan Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh The Doomsday Book by Connie Willis The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin The Female Man by Joanna Russ Her Smoke Rose Up Forever by James Tiptree, Jr. Kalpa Imperial by Angélica Gorodischer Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang by Kate Wilhelm Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge China Mountain Zhang by Maureen F. McHugh Judgment Night by CL Moore Central Control by Andre Norton A Cupful of Space by Mildred Clingerman The People by Zenna Henderson Shadow on the Hearth by Judith Merril The Heads of Cerberus by Francis Stevens Arslan by M J Engh The Revolving Boy by Derv Nagy Star Rider by Doris Piserchia Islands by Marta Randall Canopus in Argos: Archives by Doris Lessing Hwarhath Stories by Eleanor Arnason Falcon by Emma Bull Synners by Pat Caddigan Sarah Canary by Karen Joy Fowler Ash: A Secret History by Mary Gentle Ragged World by Judith Moffett
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Aug 24, 2016 14:19
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fez_machine posted:
This is a great list but I'm particularly happy to see Piserchia get some love, she's my underrated favorite. I'd actually recommend Spaceling over Star Rider as her best but they're both great. She's also an example of how 'there are no women in SF back in the day'--this was a woman writer who was picked out as a notable new find by none less than Frederick Pohl. She has a story in Last Dangerous Visions. She stopped writing in 1983 because her daughter died abruptly, leaving her with a granddaughter to raise, and so her writing time was abruptly gone. Why didn't her husband or her daughter's husband raise the kid? Why was it her time that had to be sacrificed? She's a very private person and doesn't do a lot of interviews, but I'd wager she doesn't feel cheated by having spent more time with her family. It's just that when a crisis like that occurs, it's considered expected that the woman will drop outside concerns immediately. And so a female voice in SF was silenced, with no malice involved.
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Aug 24, 2016 14:38
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occamsnailfile posted:She stopped writing in 1983 because her daughter died abruptly, leaving her with a granddaughter to raise, and so her writing time was abruptly gone. Why didn't her husband or her daughter's husband raise the kid? Why was it her time that had to be sacrificed? Both men died themselves soon after. Doris Piserchia posted:The three-year-old that Linda left me demanded a great deal of care, especially after her father became very ill with liver disease. After he died (she was seven), Joe began to fail and underwent open-heart surgery for the second time. They never should have cut him for he was too old and sick. It took him two years to die, years of being in and out of the hospital, and when he fell down, as he often did, and I could no longer pick him up, I put him in a nursing home five minutes from our house.
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Aug 24, 2016 15:13
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fez_machine posted:This list isn't great, it's far too heavily weighted towards the recent past and there's a lot of mediocre choices like To Say Nothing of The Dog over Doomsday Book or Foreigner over Downbelow Station. Nothing by Doris Lessing either, when you leave off a nobel prize winner something's not right. Downbelow Station is a hard recommendation because if you haven't read the other A-U books first, it's really hard to get into; I'd probably favour Cyteen over that. Definitely raising my eyebrows at listing Foreigner as the epitome of Cherryh's work, though.
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Aug 24, 2016 15:31
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Unlike most derails, though, this has been a really interesting opportunity to talk about perceptions of SF and gender norms. But maybe that's just me. Yeah, but was that really how you'd like to discuss that subject? quote:The whole topic reminds me really strongly of the whole "women in software" phenomenon, where ads of "boys do science, girls screw it up" and selective personality tests created a self-reinforcing cycle of "men = STEM" bullshit that wiped out the self-reinforcing perception/reality cycle of "girls do software" (conveniently also walling women off from the shittons of money that started pouring in). I think early female computer technicians were thought of as being like secretaries or nurses - junior assistants, doing practical unglamorous stuff, while the men did the real, theoretical work. I was just reading a book about Bletchley Park and there were loads of women there but most of them were doing boring repetitive stuff, while the people who got famous were men. Also, think of the number of men who write things like "Reading Arthur C. Clarke made me want to become an engineer", or whatever. There's definitely a feedback loop. And now people are complaining that sf isn't encouraging young
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Aug 24, 2016 16:42
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Some of the most accomplished early 20th century female astronomers were literally called "computers" and similar in that they were given the drudge work of processing data.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:57
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less laughter posted:Both men died themselves soon after. Jesus 
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Aug 24, 2016 17:26
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Darth Walrus posted:The series has its ups and downs, and as a rule, the odd-numbered ones seem to be better than the even-numbered ones for some reason, but Jennifer Morgue is generally considered the lowest point, so if you're past that hump, everything else should be reasonably smooth going. Really ? I like Jennifer Morgue a lot better than Annihilation Score. There's some good stuff in AS, but it falls short. Maybe it's because I'ma sucker for James Bond-ish stuff. And anyone who gave up on the series at any point should still check out Nightmare Stacks. Case Nightmare Red crossed with a romantic comedy is pretty awesome.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:38
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General Battuta posted:Jesus Yeah, that's pretty heartbreaking. Poor lady.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:53
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Drifter posted:I mean, is it so hard to understand? The rule is related to pronunciation, not spelling. Isn't it related to a consonant vs vowel. An apple or a badger.
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Aug 24, 2016 19:58
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goodness posted:Isn't it related to a consonant vs vowel. An apple or a badger. Sorta, but it's the "sound" that's important, not the actual letter. It's so the "a" doesn't slur into the word. The word "homage" has two different accepted pronunciations. In one case it would be "an homage" (ˈä-mij) In the other "a homage" (ˈhä-mij)
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Aug 24, 2016 20:55
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rip
Quornes fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 21:09
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Quornes posted:I'm trying to remember the name of a scifi book. It was about a multigenerational colony ship. It spoke a lot about the problems facing this kind of ship, breakdowns etc. They finally arrive at their destination and attempt colonization, but a virus on the planet kills off the ones who went down. Some want to try colonizing the other planet in the system, some want to head back to Earth. The ship AI intervenes when fighting breaks between the two groups. They split the ship in half, and the book follows those heading back to earth. They eventually make it but the ship and ai crash into the sun after dropping off the colonists back at earth. No one in this thread has ever heard of that book.
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Aug 24, 2016 21:14
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Aurora. Thanks for the spoilers, I'm not done with it yet
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Aug 24, 2016 21:14
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DurianGray posted:Aurora. Thanks for the spoilers, I'm not done with it yet I was about to begin reading that one too. Yay! 
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Aug 24, 2016 21:18
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Quornes posted:I'm trying to remember the name of a scifi book. It was about a multigenerational colony ship. It spoke a lot about the problems facing this kind of ship, breakdowns etc. They finally arrive at their destination and attempt colonization, but a virus on the planet kills off the ones who went down. Some want to try colonizing the other planet in the system, some want to head back to Earth. The ship AI intervenes when fighting breaks between the two groups. They split the ship in half, and the book follows those heading back to earth. They eventually make it but the ship and ai crash into the sun after dropping off the colonists back at earth. And then snape kills dumbledore
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Aug 24, 2016 21:19
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Edit your post, shithead.
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Aug 24, 2016 21:34
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So Children of Time won the Clarke I still would have liked Arcadia to win, but this is definitely a more sci fi choice
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Aug 24, 2016 22:21
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So I'm curious, neither of the lists of great SF/F by women authors (and John Scalzi) included The Left Hand of Darkness. Any reason why? I was just about to start reading it... has it not held up as well as The Dispossessed or something? I really enjoyed the Dispossessed so I assume I'd like most of LeGuin's work, but I just had to wonder.
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Aug 24, 2016 23:58
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MockingQuantum posted:So I'm curious, neither of the lists of great SF/F by women authors (and John Scalzi) included The Left Hand of Darkness. Any reason why? I was just about to start reading it... has it not held up as well as The Dispossessed or something? I really enjoyed the Dispossessed so I assume I'd like most of LeGuin's work, but I just had to wonder. I think they were going for one definitive work per author and liked The Dispossessed better, but The Left Hand of Darkness is also really loving good.
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Aug 25, 2016 00:06
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Stuporstar posted:I think they were going for one definitive work per author and liked The Dispossessed better, but The Left Hand of Darkness is also really loving good. Good to know. I won't hesitate to start it then.
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Aug 25, 2016 00:21
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I'd The Farseer Trilogy just three books of Fitz getting beaten half to death and then poisoned repeatedly? Cos if so, I'm in.
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Aug 25, 2016 00:57
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'd The Farseer Trilogy just three books of Fitz getting beaten half to death and then poisoned repeatedly? Only three? Hell, there's two more Fitz-centric suffering trilogies after that. 
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Aug 25, 2016 01:20
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the_homemaster posted:So Children of Time won the Clarke Summary: Future Earth terraforms a planet for an experiment using monkeys and an evolution virus. Things don't go as planned. Generation ship from Collapsed Earth earth finds the planet and needs it to survive. It alternates between ship and planet chapters. If you want a generation ship story then Aurora is better but the rise of the planet is amazing.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:31
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Children of Time is a much better book than Aurora; better plot and far far more interesting characters.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:35
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Kalman posted:Children of Time is a much better book than Aurora; better plot and far far more interesting characters. I hope this is true cuz Aurora loving ruled and I've got CoT waiting on my bookshelf.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:43
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holocaust bloopers posted:I hope this is true cuz Aurora loving ruled and I've got CoT waiting on my bookshelf. Move it to the top of the "read next" list IMO.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:45
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It's gonna wait for a bit. Midway through a Joe Abercrombie book and like two chapters in Downbelow Station.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:46
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Kalman posted:Children of Time is a much better book than Aurora; better plot and far far more interesting characters.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:50
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I started Children of Time last night, it's good so far! Really cool set up for what I imagine will be a Vinge-ian epic.
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Aug 25, 2016 02:13
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In fact, just finished The Left Hand of Darkness today and as someone who hadn't read any of Ursula Le Guin's other work, it's super good and I definitely want to go read more of her stuff, so thanks for recommending The Dispossessed! What else of hers should I read? The treatment of gender in The Left Hand of Darkness reminded me of the discussions I've been reading around Ann Leckie's Ancillary trilogy (though haven't read the series yet). How do they compare?
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Aug 25, 2016 02:40
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saphron posted:What else of hers should I read? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_K._Le_Guin_bibliography
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Aug 25, 2016 02:56
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saphron posted:In fact, just finished The Left Hand of Darkness today and as someone who hadn't read any of Ursula Le Guin's other work, it's super good and I definitely want to go read more of her stuff, so thanks for recommending The Dispossessed! What else of hers should I read? Though I don't have anything to compare it to in her other work, do be prepared for a slow burn in The Dispossessed. It's been a while since I read it, but it's a pretty contemplative book that spends a lot of time digging into political and social philosophy. It's still an excellent book, just not standard sci-fi fare.
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Aug 25, 2016 02:59
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I'm not going to reopen the topic because it's obviously not the place for a open discussion about that, but I also do not accept to see it described as *my* meltdown because I always have to stop the discussion because others' meltdowns force me to close it, after accusations and veiled insults. So just a few points, and then I draw the line and stop. 1- I have a blog for when I want to elaborate my thoughts, and I go to forums when I'm looking for a open discussion. I might as well have a limited and uninformed perspective, and that's partially the reason why I want to challenge my personal perspective and come to a forum to see it challenged and confront with people who probably have different opinions. Otherwise I'd stay in my soapbox and not engage with what people reply. Which is what most people do: stick with their own convictions, or align themselves to what they perceive is the social norm to have less troubles as possible. 2- Stop the straw men. The discussion started from that 90% white guy library. It's a statistical observation, and the discussion continued based on statistical observations. Or better, statistical guesses. Coming from my own perception of how the genre has been in the last 30-40 years. This argument had two main aspects. One was to figure out if my own perception of this history is somewhat close to the truth, or needed to be corrected. The other was just about saying that logically if guys made the bulk of the audience, because of that self-reinforcing loop everyone also recognizes, then it would be logical, statistically, to see the same ratio appear: composition of readers, aspiring writers and published writers. I was just turning the discussion into something objectively measurable instead of personal opinions: if the "genre" audience is represented by a certain ratio of men to women, then if we have the same ratio with published writers it means there's nothing weird going on. Otherwise, if the ratio is wildly different, then it's true there's a true discrepancy. So my thesis was: are we sure that, not today but historically, there was a very big discrepancy that would then expose a deliberate discrimination? And then we discussed the causes, even if no one followed up on that: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3554972&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=431#post463508666 All of these are the same flavor of straw men: quote:There have always been women involved in geek/genre stuff. quote:Have you never seen a kid in a toy shop be steered away from an aisle because the stuff on it 'isn't for girls'? quote:We decided that women have never actually been into this "reading" thing because they actually prefer romance novels. quote:You fall in the knee-jerk defensive category of white people who don't like to talk about race because it makes them feel icky Yes, women have always been part of the genre. I never stated the opposite. The argument was whether or not they have historically represented 50% of genre. Yes, a woman can play a role playing game like D&D, no one is shocked or surprised, but is the statistical distribution comparable to men? It was an overall observation about trends, stating very simply that if women have been historically a minority in genre, then it would be logical that a similar ratio would show up in the ratio of published writers too. 3- About the Puppies. I think (again statistically) they represent a very tiny portion of the public. But they can make a lot of noise (and acquire an importance they don't really have), and do some damage. But they are not relevant in the big picture because while a reader can have her/his own political views I don't think anyone reads a book TO MAKE a political point. We decide what to read, but we don't make a "demonstration" out of it. Do they have leverage on publishers? I do not know, but I'm skeptical about it. Maybe I'm too optimistic. In any case if you think they are toxic for the community you don't fight them by shutting down discussions or turning every of their arguments in a straw man too. That's how they fester. The more people get locked up in two groups and create a sense of identity by building hostility to the other group, the more you exacerbate the problem itself. Or so I think. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 25, 2016 03:05
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I pulled up your blog once. You like to pat yourself on the back on there about how you come into the book threads on SA and post some outlandish opinion just to "shake the hive up." You can gently caress off.
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Aug 25, 2016 03:14
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