|
Abalieno posted:I'm not going to reopen the topic because it's obviously not the place for a open discussion about that, but I also do not accept to see it described as *my* meltdown because I always have to stop the discussion because others' meltdowns force me to close it, after accusations and veiled insults. quote:1- I have a blog for when I want to elaborate my thoughts, and I go to forums when I'm looking for a open discussion. quote:2- Stop the straw men. The discussion started from that 90% white guy library. It's a statistical observation, and the discussion continued based on statistical observations. Or better, statistical guesses. Coming from my own perception of how the genre has been in the last 30-40 years. This argument had two main aspects. One was to figure out if my own perception of this history is somewhat close to the truth, or needed to be corrected. The other was just about saying that logically if guys made the bulk of the audience, because of that self-reinforcing loop everyone also recognizes, then it would be logical, statistically, to see the same ratio appear: composition of readers, aspiring writers and published writers. http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/13/berger13.htm Here, look, actual numbers instead of your lovely tummy-feels. Looks like the ratio of readership has been around 35-40% since the 1960s and basically climbing to 50/50 since (http://www.sfwa.org/2014/01/reads-science-fiction/). There's probably more actual sources you could go find, if you wanted to honestly engage in the discussion about this. I found these in <5 minutes of google. So yes, there is a discrepancy between readership and author publication. The problem exists and everyone here but you seems to understand that fact. Wonder why that is.
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 03:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 22:56 |
|
|
"I'm not going to reopen the topic but here's a few hundred words on the topic." You need to learn that being verbose does not make you right.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 03:26
|
|
|
Popular Human posted:I pulled up your blog once. You like to pat yourself on the back on there about how you come into the book threads on SA and post some outlandish opinion just to "shake the hive up." Straw man. Exact quote of my blog: "weeks later I saw the book being discussed on SomethingAwful forums and I used the occasion to be the voice outside the chorus, deliberately against the grain, criticizing without any subtlety. Because I wanted to actually engage in a discussion with someone who loved and understood the depth, see the opposite angle." Not to shake the hive up, but to challenge more directly my views. But I guess even this is a bait to drag me in off topic and personal attacks just so I misstep and offer a good occasion to be banned.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 03:28
|
|
|
CaptCommy posted:http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/13/berger13.htm Well, thanks. It would have done just fine even without the insults. Not reopening the topic means I won't continue to discuss, outside of exceptional cases when what I already wrote is being deliberately distorted. I of course don't decide what's discussed or not, so you can continue as you want. I only said I wouldn't go past of what I wrote in that last message. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 03:31
|
|
|
How about those science fiction and fantasy books you guys
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 03:44
|
|
|
*extremely masculine doom guy voice* The Fifth Season and its sequel, The Obelisk Gate, are some of the best books I've read in years, effortlessly tackling heavy themes while also lovingly crafting a compelling setting.There's no detail that seems incidental, no scrap of flavor that doesn't feed back into tensions within the plot. As without, so within. The chaotic world of the Stillness mirrors the emotional worlds of the characters forced into it and we see the relationship between the earth and the people living upon it, the protagonists family, upbringing, lover, and children written and rewritten in scales both large and small. I'm glad it deserves the Hugo and I'm overjoyed that Jemisin's Patreon got funded so I'll be able to read the third book as soon as possible.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 04:23
|
|
|
holocaust bloopers posted:How about those science fiction and fantasy books you guys More like S.J.W. fiction and womantasy books, am I rite?
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 04:51
|
|
|
To help give a push back in the direction of discussing book stuff instead of book sociology, I'll paste a forum topic I made about a year ago on a different forum, but still very actual, and that helps further the cause of the good argument: increase the awareness toward stuff that celebrates diversity. -- So here’s what I have: – Recurrence Plot – BLACK QUANTUM FUTURISM Stuff I randomly spotted on Twitter and instantly proceeded to order (it’s cheap anyway). It’s self-publish stuff, I think, but that increases the curiosity of finding something RARE very few people know and potentially great and also different from everything else out there. Entirely new perspectives. Pioneering! The two are related, the first is a weird tale that almost looks Danielewsky, it should have a sequel in a couple of months, and boldly claims “Time Travel, Theory & Practice”. There are a few weird schemes and pictures inside, the quality is not good (print quality of the images) but I love looking at convoluted diagrams and tangles of plot and mythology. The second one is some kind of fanzine, just 70-80 pages in a small format, it’s basically the “manifesto” that feeds the first book. I’ll paste here a quote so you understand what we’re dealing with: quote:[…] The troubling reality of being Black in America. The troubling reality of memory and how it plays a role in our daily lives. What do we chose to remember and what are we trying to forget? What memories are forced upon us and what memories are we forced to forget? What effect do they have over our bodies and psyches? The double conscious that DuBois once prophetically spoke of has transformed into a metafractal of limitless shapes and symmetry within the collective conscious of Black people. What are the dimesions of trauma? Does it work like a satellite routing a collective misery (sadness) to a certain locale? Does its energy participate and reemerge in some other space? How does our trauma affect the cosmos? One of the pages is titled: Swahili Conception of Time and Space Here’s an image of the writer, with conspicuous Africa-shaped earrings. She basically looks coming straight from The Matrix: http://40.media.tumblr.com/e3cc295a7878d9a75aec6d9712476da9/tumblr_nmyhnnKMSJ1sugf2vo1_500.jpg So, it’s Time Travel mythology employed as social activism. A delicious post-modern mix. It’s mythology laid on top of this discourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z0N3hsSvs8 Watch the video because it’s great. I still only just browsed through the two books since I just got them, so can’t really say if what’s in there is actually good. But the premises are more than worth the very small price. And I also absolutely love this blur of practical mythology, crossing over between fiction and reality, and basically reinvent everything. Even when it’s a failure it’s still exceptional.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 05:10
|
|
|
I'm looking for a solid Space Opera type novel that might have a little more teeth than The Expanse series. I'm about halfway through Nemesis Games and it's still good, I enjoy the Expanse novels, but as has been said here before I think some of the big picture concepts that would make people call it a space opera don't actually have a lot of bearing on the moment-to-moment events of the series. Not a criticism, just an observation. It seems like Ancillary Justice and the other two books of the trilogy might scratch that particular itch, but any other must-reads? I've read Old Man's War, Revelation Space, and A Fire Upon The Deep/Deepness in the Sky, but I can't think of anything else I've read in recent memory that would qualify as space opera. Edit: Dune and Hyperion too. I guess I didn't think of them as space opera but they do seem to show up on a lot of lists.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 05:19
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:I was just turning the discussion into something objectively measurable instead of personal opinions: if the "genre" audience is represented by a certain ratio of men to women, then if we have the same ratio with published writers it means there's nothing weird going on. Otherwise, if the ratio is wildly different, then it's true there's a true discrepancy. So my thesis was: are we sure that, not today but historically, there was a very big discrepancy that would then expose a deliberate discrimination? What does this have to do with anything? The books that do get published are supposed to the cream of the crop, especially for debut novels. Publishers are deluged with draft novels, many of which are bad. But there are plenty that get looked over for all sorts of reasons: because they already have similar books, it isn't what they are looking for, because nothing stood out to them at a quick glance, it was fine but not exceptional, they don't take submissions, they didn't read more than the opening chapter for whatever reason, they were in a poor mood, and so on. There's plenty of examples in fiction where an author has been writing for decades with little result, then when a publisher picks them up, they become a huge success. They quality of the book might not even be exceptional, and got by on marketing and word of mouth. I'm thinking authors like Andy Weir and Ernest Cline. The point is that a publisher has no reason to be publishing books in a 90:10 ratio, when they have the pick of the litter. They could be publishing at 50:50 if they put in the work dig through submissions, and scout magazines and amateur publications. Instead it's easier to stick with what and who you know, which in this case are your friends and their friends (which are white males, because that's who you are). Which was the point of the Jemisin's argument. Publishers don't give enough opportunities to up and coming writers or authors who aren't recommended by one of their friends. Compare and contrast to other fields. It is hard to argue that women's sporting events are anywhere near as popular as men's but at the elite level they have close to 50:50 representation. No one seems to have a problem with this. It is culturally expected and even mandated to train women athletes in sports where males are represented. On the other hand you have Hollywood. There are clearly many talented women who are capable enough to take on directorial and executive roles, but are not simply given the opportunity. The industry is so risk adverse that they rather give jobs to directors who turn out stinker after stinker because they made one or two hits a decade ago, over someone who is capable and desperate for an opportunity, but no track record. What's the worst they could do, turn out something mediocre that is currently being produced? Publishers need to put in more effort to publish good books from a wider pool of authors. Whatever process they are using isn't producing a result that reflects the community of fans and amateur writers. It could even just be simple changes to how they request and distribute submissions to first readers, or how and where they advertise their services in the community. The bottom line is that there needs to be more opportunities given to underrepresented writers. You might see a gender discrepancy if publishers were running out of good books to publish, and were forced to dig into the bigger pool of male submissions. But this isn't the case. Tokamak fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Aug 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 05:21
|
|
|
saphron posted:In fact, just finished The Left Hand of Darkness today and as someone who hadn't read any of Ursula Le Guin's other work, it's super good and I definitely want to go read more of her stuff, so thanks for recommending The Dispossessed! What else of hers should I read? My personal favorite of hers is The Lathe of Heaven, though it's somewhat lighter fare compared to the other two. Ancillary Justice doesn't compare at all. It's just a minor detail that got blown out of proportion by both advocates and detractors. There's not a lot out there comparable to The Left Hand of Darkness and its gender themes other than some stories by John Varley (his short stories are generally great) and Theodore Sturgeon (same), and one character in Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake whose gender is unspecified throughout the whole thing, which I only noticed because LeGuin pointed it out on her blog a few years ago. Edit: I should also mention the third book in Octavia Butler's Lilith's Brood trilogy is told from the pov of a human-alien hybrid who develops into the middle gender of their sexual triad and it's weird without bring creepy (like some of Varley's stuff). That whole series is really loving cool. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Aug 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 05:26
|
|
|
spaceships don't have genders, thank you very much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
MockingQuantum posted:I'm looking for a solid Space Opera type novel that might have a little more teeth than The Expanse series. I'm about halfway through Nemesis Games and it's still good, I enjoy the Expanse novels, but as has been said here before I think some of the big picture concepts that would make people call it a space opera don't actually have a lot of bearing on the moment-to-moment events of the series. Not a criticism, just an observation. Let's go thematic and get you reading the Vorkosigan series by Bujold. She does more real work with gender issues than the Ancillary series did, and they're fantastic reads.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 05:52
|
|
|
MockingQuantum posted:I'm looking for a solid Space Opera type novel that might have a little more teeth than The Expanse series. I'm about halfway through Nemesis Games and it's still good, I enjoy the Expanse novels, but as has been said here before I think some of the big picture concepts that would make people call it a space opera don't actually have a lot of bearing on the moment-to-moment events of the series. Not a criticism, just an observation. Scott Westerfield's Succession duology is pretty good space opera with some sharply written battle sequences and also a lot of investigation of the meaning of being human, and trying to run a government (and a navy) at sub-light speed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 06:29
|
|
|
Tokamak posted:spaceships don't have genders, thank you very much. Well, except for the living ones...
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 06:59
|
|
|
I love the Imperial Radch trilogy but it probably won't scratch that space opera itch too much, given that the second book is about resolving a labour dispute borne out of ethnic tensions on a planet whose primary export is tea. I'll second the Westerfeld rec, however! I would've plugged that if occam's hadn't. And you've read Culture, right?
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 07:23
|
|
|
Tokamak posted:spaceships don't have genders, thank you very much.  
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 07:39
|
|
|
this comment was retarded and i deleted it
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 08:09
|
|
|
MockingQuantum posted:I'm looking for a solid Space Opera type novel that might have a little more teeth than The Expanse series. I'm about halfway through Nemesis Games and it's still good, I enjoy the Expanse novels, but as has been said here before I think some of the big picture concepts that would make people call it a space opera don't actually have a lot of bearing on the moment-to-moment events of the series. Not a criticism, just an observation. The Japanese sci-fi series Legend of the Galactic Heroes is finally getting released in English, with the first book out now. Despite the grandiose name it is about admirals commanding fleets and political maneuvering.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 13:15
|
|
|
Tokamak posted:spaceships don't have genders, thank you very much.  also this is totally someone's fetish
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 13:37
|
|
|
FYI, you can get John Scalzi's new novella, The Dispatcher for free on Audible until the 3rd of November. http://www.audible.com/pd/Sci-Fi-Fantasy/FREE-The-Dispatcher-Audiobook/B01KKPH1VA
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 15:43
|
|
|
MockingQuantum posted:I'm looking for a solid Space Opera type novel that might have a little more teeth than The Expanse series. I'm about halfway through Nemesis Games and it's still good, I enjoy the Expanse novels, but as has been said here before I think some of the big picture concepts that would make people call it a space opera don't actually have a lot of bearing on the moment-to-moment events of the series. Not a criticism, just an observation. Just from the stuff I've read this year, Vatta's War by Elizabeth Moon and The Risen Empire/The Killing of Worlds by Scott Westerfeld. We also have a thread specifically for space opera.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 15:46
|
|
|
Popular Human posted:I pulled up your blog once. You like to pat yourself on the back on there about how you come into the book threads on SA and post some outlandish opinion just to "shake the hive up." I just looked and what the hell he copied an entire debate he had with me once onto his blog I feel weirdly like my privacy has been invaded or something
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 16:26
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:I've discussed this briefly with my friend, and his interpretation is that the "genre" is a new thing for women. Diane Duane and Ursula K. LeGuin (among many other women) take offense at this post. e: Two pages late and a Mary Shelley burn right after the quoted post.  Ignore this, I am having a bad posting day apparently. WarLocke fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Aug 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 16:38
|
|
|
WarLocke posted:Diane Duane and Ursula K. LeGuin (among many other women) take offense at this post.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 16:53
|
|
|
WarLocke posted:Diane Duane and Ursula K. LeGuin (among many other women) take offense at this post. Don't forget Lois "McMaster of Hugo Awards" Bujold.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 18:17
|
|
|
fritz posted:There was a list going around the fan community a while back titled "60 essential SF reads": I was going through this list and now I have to thank you because I'm pretty certain I read Nancy Kress' Beggars in Spain years ago, and have been trying to figure out/remember the title ever since in order to read it again. The whole premise of kids who never have to sleep and how society ends up dealing with the repercussions of that always stayed with me. And while googling the authors/titles on that list you supplied me with the info I needed! 
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
Finally finished Magic Bites today. I really enjoyed it. The world was interesting to me, with just enough hints and 'Oh, that's cool' moments to keep me intrigued. Kate was good company. Now I'm about to start the first book in the Felix Castor series, because I apparently have that first person urban fantasy itch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2016 23:38
|
|
|
Antti posted:And you've read Culture, right? If by Culture you mean the Iain M. Banks books... no. I started Consider Phlebas in college but got busy and put it down, haven't yet tackled the series since then.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 00:13
|
|
|
Robot Wendigo posted:Finally finished Magic Bites today. I really enjoyed it. The world was interesting to me, with just enough hints and 'Oh, that's cool' moments to keep me intrigued. Kate was good company. Now I'm about to start the first book in the Felix Castor series, because I apparently have that first person urban fantasy itch. Put Alex Verus as your next to read on that list. I've enjoyed every one of those in the series. I also enjoyed The Magic [X]* series by Ilona Andrews, and thought the Felix Castor series was also good, although much darker in tone. I hate read Butcher up until Ghost Story and I thought it was even more bland than his previous books; I thought Sandman Slim was a good idea tucked away in a hall of repetition that became utterly boring; I also read the first three chapters of the first Iron Druid book a few years ago and from that sample of writing think it's one of the worst in the genre, story and character-wise. Mentioning ghosts and Felix Castor just reminded me that I absolutely loved Sean Stewart's Perfect Circle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 00:25
|
|
|
Drifter posted:Put Alex Verus as your next to read on that list. I've enjoyed every one of those in the series. I think you would dig the Daniel Faust books. They cover similar ground as the Sandman Slim books, but are better-written and Faust isn't the caricature that Stark is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 00:30
|
|
|
Robot Wendigo posted:Finally finished Magic Bites today. I really enjoyed it. The world was interesting to me, with just enough hints and 'Oh, that's cool' moments to keep me intrigued. Kate was good company. Now I'm about to start the first book in the Felix Castor series, because I apparently have that first person urban fantasy itch. I'd also heartily recommend the Pax Arcana series by Elliott James. It's about John Charming (never a prince), the last of a family sworn to an ancient order of monster hunters. John fought to protect humanity from knowledge of the supernatural, at least until he came up with a bad case of werewolfism. Decades later, he's living in small town Virginia and trying to keep a low profile... until a blonde and a vampire walk into his bar. I also have to second the Daniel Faust and Harmony Black series by Craig Schaefer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 00:54
|
|
|
Ornamented Death posted:I think you would dig the Daniel Faust books. They cover similar ground as the Sandman Slim books, but are better-written and Faust isn't the caricature that Stark is. Seconding the Daniel Faust books, they're great, quick reads and are some of the stronger urban fantasy I've come across. I admit I'm a Dresden fanboy, but I'd still say the Faust books are better written and more engaging in a lot of ways.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 00:54
|
|
|
It helps that Daniel isn't a powerhouse. He can't lose control and burn down a city or start lobbing fireballs and freeze spells while floating in the air. He can basically use cards as a shield and that's pretty much it. He's very much a normal dude who just has some interesting friends. I'd also toss Stephen Blackmoore's Carter series out there. Dead Things is the first book, and it's pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 01:12
|
|
|
Goddamn, Heretics of Dune really went off the rails. I'm going to power through it and Chapterhouse because I want to finish the originals once and for all. For me, God Emperor wasn't great but fit with the first three books well enough, but Heretics is just bizarrely unlike the rest.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 01:48
|
|
|
RVProfootballer posted:Goddamn, Heretics of Dune really went off the rails. I'm going to power through it and Chapterhouse because I want to finish the originals once and for all. For me, God Emperor wasn't great but fit with the first three books well enough, but Heretics is just bizarrely unlike the rest. I gave up after God Emperor myself. I agree that it wasn't terrible and was enough in the same world of the first three that it was readable, but I think I made it maybe 20-30 pages into Heretic before I realized it wasn't what I wanted out of a book.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
Heretics and Chapterhouse are pretty drastic shifts from the earlier books. The common recommendation is to read Frank's books until you stop enjoying them. Never, under any circumstances, touch the BH/KJA books.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
It was really tragic for me how badly the books declined. I read Dune at kind of a critical time in terms of shaping my tastes in books and I absolutely loved it. Messiah and Children weren't quite as revolutionary but were still very different than anything else I had come across. Then God Emperor.. was.. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 02:49
|
|
|
I've never looked at the last two or three books as declining in quality, just shifting the kind of story Frank was telling. His biggest misstep, in my opinion, is making such a drastic shift so quickly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 02:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 22:56 |
|
|
RVProfootballer posted:Goddamn, Heretics of Dune really went off the rails. I'm going to power through it and Chapterhouse because I want to finish the originals once and for all. For me, God Emperor wasn't great but fit with the first three books well enough, but Heretics is just bizarrely unlike the rest. I'd say that Chapterhouse gets better and really wraps the series up nicely. Your mileage may vary wildly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2016 02:58
|
|