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Leperflesh posted:Other properties had ratmen, sure, but GW invented the skaven as a culture in their game, is what I meant. No I mean all the Skaven stuff is in that Leiber story. The Bell is there, the council of rat wizards, the whole "assassinate people to keep them from discovering the secret rat kingdom", the ancient conspiracy to conquer the above world that is held back by the bickering and infighting in the rat kingdom, basically the only difference is that in the Leiber story is that they are normal rat sized and the heroes get shrunk to ratman size. I guess also when they rise up to conquer the city the heroes summon ancient cat gods that devour them because Leiber has a really weird sense of humor.
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Aug 26, 2016 08:15
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TTerrible posted:Haha as soon as I hit submit I knew they were the worst example. Ignoring how powerful they are, they took a unit with cool abilities and made it incredibly generic. Oh there were plenty of us. Most quit playing 40k entirely. Edit: I really gotta get back to this project: http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2015/03/let-read-and-maybe-house-rule-warhammer.html And classic Epic: http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2010/06/epic-system-battle-report-1.html http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2010/05/epic-system-preparing-for-battle-six_13.html Extremely my poo poo. Captain Rufus fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 09:04
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Captain Rufus posted:Oh there were plenty of us. Most quit playing 40k entirely. Thatīs how it was for me. Plus lots of stuff randomly moved to elite or fast attack so i had no armies anymore.
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Aug 26, 2016 09:12
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2nd Edition was a garbage game and if you like it more than 3rd your mom must have repeatedly smashed your head into a brick wall as an infant. It's hideously broken, has one of the worst hand to hand systems ever written in a mass market wargame, had terrible vehicle rules and every game took hours to play even though you were using like a third of the miniatures you'd use in 3rd or 4th. People just like it because they have the rosiest tinted glasses for it and like a lot of nerds are unable to divorce the ideas of "b-b-b-b-but I liiiike this thing" and "this thing is a bad game made poorly".
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Aug 26, 2016 09:47
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2nd ed was bad but 3rd wasn't a great solution
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Aug 26, 2016 09:48
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TTerrible posted:2nd ed was bad but 3rd wasn't a great solution 3rd wasn't great but it was still better than anything that came later because the initial rules weren't bloated at all. It bloated over time of course and 4th onwards was all downhill. It's not coming back folks. Let it die in it's own time. Seriously, who is going to spend 2 grand so their kid is going to have enough figures for a WH army now? No new blood means dead franchise. Brain dead corpse is still breathing that's all. Once the remainder of the nostalgic people grow older there will be nothing left.
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Aug 26, 2016 09:54
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DancingShade posted:3rd wasn't great but it was still better than anything that came later because the initial rules weren't bloated at all. 3rd was the rhino rush days, wasn't it. Yeah, that sounded like fun.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:29
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Ilor posted:If you look at it from their perspective, they are doing it right - they're giving you an incentive to buy a kit that's already more than made up its design and tooling costs. Every old-rear end WarTrakk they sell you is almost pure profit at this point. Designing and tooling a new one costs them money, and if they can get you to buy the old one anyway, why would they want to do that? I would argue not really because I never see that kit on the shelves because they are direct only.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:34
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Captain Rufus posted:Oh there were plenty of us. Most quit playing 40k entirely. Yup, I quit when 3E came out and there wasn't enough people playing Gorkamorka in the area. It was around this time I discovered clubbing and drugs, which also might be related. Captain Rufus posted:Edit: I really gotta get back to this project: http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2015/03/let-read-and-maybe-house-rule-warhammer.html Well, I know what I'm reading when I should be doing work today. El Estrago Bonito posted:2nd Edition was a garbage game and if you like it more than 3rd your mom must have repeatedly smashed your head into a brick wall as an infant. It's hideously broken, has one of the worst hand to hand systems ever written in a mass market wargame, had terrible vehicle rules and every game took hours to play even though you were using like a third of the miniatures you'd use in 3rd or 4th. People just like it because they have the rosiest tinted glasses for it and like a lot of nerds are unable to divorce the ideas of "b-b-b-b-but I liiiike this thing" and "this thing is a bad game made poorly". 2E hand-to-hand is fine for skirmish, but the second it gets above a few squads it gets stupid quickly. Kitting out a Chaos Lord to have 9 attack dice was always funny though.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:39
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The new White Dwarf dropped. Reading the cover, it's just more of the same awful writing style that's oozing out of Age of Sigmar.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:50
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LordAba posted:3rd was the rhino rush days, wasn't it. Yeah, that sounded like fun. Yeah they realised by making $40 vehicles worth 35 points (or less) it printed money. Hence the drop pod armies and all the rest of it.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:50
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DancingShade posted:Yeah they realised by making $40 vehicles worth 35 points (or less) it printed money. Drop pods didn't come out til 4th edition. 3E was all about rhinos screaming across the battlefield and then puking death company out to hack everything to pieces. Space Marines were the best and Orks were second just because of how good choppas were on Spaces Marines.
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Aug 26, 2016 16:29
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DancingShade posted:Yeah they realised by making $40 vehicles worth 35 points (or less) it printed money. 
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Aug 26, 2016 17:11
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Drop pods didn't come out til 4th edition. 3E was all about rhinos screaming across the battlefield and then puking death company out to hack everything to pieces. Space Marines were the best and Orks were second just because of how good choppas were on Spaces Marines. Fond memories of running the salamander list and immolating orks and using underpriced terminators to demolish marines. "Oh no you have INT 3! That sucks!" "All my thunder hammers are master crafted for free."  Oh yeah and chaplains with free hammer upgrades.
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Aug 26, 2016 18:00
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El Estrago Bonito posted:2nd Edition was a garbage game and if you like it more than 3rd your mom must have repeatedly smashed your head into a brick wall as an infant. It's hideously broken, has one of the worst hand to hand systems ever written in a mass market wargame, had terrible vehicle rules and every game took hours to play even though you were using like a third of the miniatures you'd use in 3rd or 4th. People just like it because they have the rosiest tinted glasses for it and like a lot of nerds are unable to divorce the ideas of "b-b-b-b-but I liiiike this thing" and "this thing is a bad game made poorly". You're wrong for liking a thing!
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Aug 26, 2016 18:01
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fnordcircle posted:You're wrong for liking a thing! One thing I've been saying about pop culture nerd shirt for a while is this: "No matter what thing you love and adore, someone else despises it and thinks it's crap. You are both probably right." Problem is most people think everyone simply must agree with their line of thinking and our modern idiot mindset of making consumer goods both identity and religion. So everybody acts like anyone who strays from their exact line of thought is clearly either a troll or Hitler's rancid shitdick. It's goddamned dumb. It's ok to like or not like thing. Don't be a choad about it either way.
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Aug 26, 2016 18:47
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I acknowledge that 2nd ed was a badly designed system (especially close combat). But it was the first game I played, together with 4th ed WHFB, and it did have something special that I missed when I tried 3rd or 4th ed after a break from mini gaming. It was definitely a game for 2-3 squads and maybe a vehicle, tops. It was clunky as hell. But it was extremely colourful, with an entire book with just wargear, and the codices were big tomes brim full of background and texts. 2nd ed defined the 40K fictional universe, which is still probably a better thing than any of the actual games GW made. It was also probably a dead end when it comes to game design, as the wheels started to fall of so quickly if you increased the size of the armies, and GW clearly wanted to move from a RPG with miniatures to a skirmish battle game.
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Aug 26, 2016 18:47
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Arglebargle III posted:Has anyone outside GW ever played a game of Epic, and how quickly was it cancelled? Epic Armageddon is the best (as in, most balanced and well-designed ruleset) game GW ever made. Some folks who really liked the lord of the rings game might argue about it maybe. It's still a thriving community. There's a link to the GW Specialist Games thread in the OP: go check it out. There are regular tournaments, a ton of very very well playtested fan-made semi-official army lists beyond the handful that GW published, and enough third-party model support that with that + eBay you can put together a workable 3k point army for a reasonable price. The biggest weakness in the rules, in my opinion, is their organization: they're written as a tutorial, so rules for basic troops are separate from war machines, which are separate from aerospace, which are separate from titans... fine when learning since that's a good progression for a series of learning games, but very annoying when using the rulebook as a reference and you just want to find the spot where it says what the difference is between a macro weapon and a titan killer weapon or whatever. But the way the game works is very very good. You have a number of "formations" each of which includes from one to a lot of units - a stand of infantry is a unit, so is a tank, or a stand with a couple of jetbikes, etc. During a turn, you and your opponent take turns activating formations, and when you activate a formation you pick an order for it - triple march, say, or move + fire, or assault. Then it tests against an initiative number with a d6, which it can fail... less organized/elite formations usually are slightly more likely to fail an activation than the top guys, but you can get activation rerolls with leader characters etc. Now that sounds like poo poo because failing an activation and doing nothing sucks, right? Well, not so fast, because if you fail an activation, you don't do nothing: you fall back to a choice between either a basic single-move, or a basic attack. So your formation still gets to do something! Just, not the nicer thing you were trying to do. I love the way that affects strategy... you pick a formation early in your turn that you need to get into cover before your opponent activates a nearby unit to pour fire into them, knowing that even if you fail the activation you can get them to cover, they just won't be able to initiate the firefight. The number of formations you have is critical, too: getting to go last, means getting to make moves that your opponent cannot immediately counter, so there's a strong incentive to have more formations rather than fewer. But, that interacts directly with the morale feature of the game, to wit: Each formation takes "blast markers" whenever it takes fire from another formation. Merely the act of being fired upon gives it one BM, and then for each unit in the formation that dies (or each damage point applied to multiwound models like superheavy tanks and titans) it takes an additional blast marker. The moment the unit has as many or more BMs as it does remaining units (or hit points for multiwound models), the unit breaks! A broken unit has to try to get away from enemies, because during the round end phase, broken units with (iirc 15 cm?) take additional damage and can easily get wiped out. Also during the end phase, broken units get a chance to rally, and if they succeed, they lose half their BMs and can get back into the action. Non-broken units also roll a die and if they succeed at a test, they remove some BMs. So, if you have a lot of small formations, the small formations are vulnerable to taking too many BMs and breaking. But if you concentrate your forces into fewer, larger formations, you will run out of activations before your opponent and they'll have the tactical advantage of getting to activate multiple formations in a row at the end of every round. During initial deployment at the start of the game you also alternate placing formations, so again there's an advantage to being able to deploy several formations at the end that your opponent can't counter-deploy against. There's a lot more to E:A and most of it is good design. The way aircraft work - they sit off-table and then in a single turn, streak across the battlefield, take AA fire as they do so, fire at something on the ground, and then streak off the table at the end of the turn. Or, for your CAP, they react to opponent aero to intercept and fire on them, and again streak off the field. And if you buy space ships, they're not represented with models, you just get a bombardment from orbit each turn to direct somewhere. It's cool and good and feels much more like the way real aircraft interact with a real surface battle. It's great the way assaults work: for the most part, infantry without heavy weapons can't shoot on the table, but when you get into an assault (two or more formations crash into each other) you basically model a tiny Warhammer 40k battle: units get an initial maneuvering phase where you try and get your close combat guys into base contact, then everyone within 15 cm rolls dice against a firefight value, units in base contact role dice against close combat values, some other special rules can apply, and then you remove a shitload of casualties, compare total casualty numbers, roll a couple dice and add them in, and determine the winner of the assault. There's additional rules for pulling other nearby units into the assault, rules for crossfire, etc. So these assaults take a few minutes to run, but they feel like pivotal moments in the larger battle. Tanks that normally get to shoot during any activation where their formation gets to fire, are suddenly more vulnerable to close-combat options - simulating the way that armor needs infantry support or is vulnerable to infantry close-up. Close-combat specialists tear through units specialized for longer-range fighting. Large formations weather assaults better, because at the end of the assault, even if your formation won, it gets blast markers for all those casualties and can break from victory due to too many losses. And the entire game is objectives-based, but not in the stupid random way 40k does it. At the beginning of the game, six objective markers are placed on the battlefield; one each near each player's edge, plus four more. You can claim victory points for protecting your own objective, capturing the opponents, capturing the most objectives, destroying your opponents highest-point-cost formation (this one rule ensures that there's a sharp consideration to be made during army building - have one very high point but nearly invulnerable formation as the centerpiece of your army, which necessarily means having other weak formations that are easier to break? Or have multiple medium-point-cost formations which makes your overall force more durable and flexible but increases your opponents' possibility of destroying your highest cost formation), etc. And the game ends after x turns - usually five or six. So tabling your opponent is not the objective and usually not possible anyway. On every turn you have to deal with the immediacy of your opponents' formations, shooting and killing where you can, but you also need to constantly have some kind of plan for claiming enough VPs to win the game. You can't hold an objective with a broken unit, so claiming an objective too early is bad because your opponent can concentrate fire on that formation and probably break it just before the end of the game. But waiting too late can also cost you, if your opponent manages to intervene, contest the objective, or even if you just fail an activation and the formation you were going to claim it with can't make it in time. Activations are more likely to fail when the unit has blast markers, so you have to carefully consider when it's worth using up an activation to rally, vs. pressing on with a nearly-broken unit to try and get something important done. And armies "feel" right. Space Marines have small elite forces that are fantastic in close combat but very vulnerable to attrition and are usually at a disadvantage in terms of number of formations. Imperial Guard have huge armies of tanks and cannon-fodder infantry. Orks charge across the battle in huge formations of crappy garbage wagons and tanks and throw-away troops, but can win assaults and have a lot of formations to work with. Eldar are hyper-mobile assholes who uniquely are allowed to move-shoot-move instead of the normal move-move-shoot or shoot-move-move. They have expensive formations that are highly specialized, some powerful piercing weapons, and get to deploy a warp gate to replace one of the objective markers, but their smaller formations are vulnerable to weight of BMs, specialists do very badly against the wrong enemy formations especially in close combat, and like space marines they tend to have fewer formations than the enemy. Etc. etc. Basically tl:dr; Epic Armageddon is nearly the match for any other modern tabletop wargame. There's definitely weak spots in the game design, it's still a game that can easily take three or four hours especially if you haven't memorized the rules, etc. But if you really love the 40k setting and want to play a 40k game, E:A is infinitely better as a game than Warhammer 40k.
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Aug 26, 2016 19:07
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El Estrago Bonito posted:No I mean all the Skaven stuff is in that Leiber story. The Bell is there, the council of rat wizards, the whole "assassinate people to keep them from discovering the secret rat kingdom", the ancient conspiracy to conquer the above world that is held back by the bickering and infighting in the rat kingdom, basically the only difference is that in the Leiber story is that they are normal rat sized and the heroes get shrunk to ratman size. I guess also when they rise up to conquer the city the heroes summon ancient cat gods that devour them because Leiber has a really weird sense of humor. I admit that I really disliked the first Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser book (one of their girlfriends got Refrigerator'd and that was a massive turnoff for me) so I read no further in that series. Or Leiber in general come to think of it. Anyway that's interesting, I didn't know Leiber's ratmen were such a close match. So OK, GW invented cockney football hooligan orks, then. Whatever. Everything in warhammer is derivitave of something, but the creativity and fun that went into their products in the 1980s is undeniable. They were genuinely doing "a good thing" at the time.
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Aug 26, 2016 19:10
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So it looks like I'm about to get into a fight with GW Customer Service about redeeming the remaining issues of White Dwarf I have coming to me through the iOS app. Latest email from the rep is him trying to just give me a voucher that I can use to purchase models or something on the website. (Thus creating a situation where I'd be forced to spend that money on full retail GW models plus purchase my sub of white dwarf all over again if I wanted to maintain it. What do I tell him goons?
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Aug 26, 2016 19:51
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I recommend coming to the realization that you made a bad purchasing decision and trying to get cash back, given that White Dwarf hasn't been good in at least a decade.
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Aug 26, 2016 19:55
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Majin posted:What do I tell him goons? Tell him you paid for a product, and GW's legal responsibility is to either deliver the exact product you paid for, or, a cash refund. You don't have to agree to anything else and they cannot force you to do anything else.
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Aug 26, 2016 20:13
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Leperflesh posted:Tell him you paid for a product, and GW's legal responsibility is to either deliver the exact product you paid for, or, a cash refund. You don't have to agree to anything else and they cannot force you to do anything else. Well that was quick. Yeah. I got them to send me a refund check. Any bets on whether their checks have something cutesy on them like a sigmarine making GBS threads on a bretonnian questing knight or something? Gotta say that bump up from $80.49 to $85.00 they were offering if I just took the voucher instead was mighty tempting </s>
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Aug 26, 2016 20:35
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My back patio last night Little dudes been raiding the cat food.
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Aug 26, 2016 23:14
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Leperflesh posted:Little dudes been raiding the cat food.
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Aug 26, 2016 23:17
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This photo was the opening salvo in my campaign to convince my wife that opossums are cute. A few nights ago one showed up with a youngster, but my phone was charging in the back room and so I didn't bother to try and get a photo.
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Aug 27, 2016 00:12
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Leperflesh posted:I admit that I really disliked the first Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser book (one of their girlfriends got Refrigerator'd and that was a massive turnoff for me) so I read no further in that series. Or Leiber in general come to think of it. Similarly beastmen are taken almost directly from broos in Glorantha.
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Aug 27, 2016 00:25
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Epic is a pretty good game, GW not supporting it is further evidence that they are a bad company that makes bad decisions.Terrible Opinions posted:Similarly beastmen are taken almost directly from broos in Glorantha. Of all the things to take from Glorantha.
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Aug 27, 2016 08:02
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TTerrible posted:2nd ed was bad but 3rd wasn't a great solution that makes AoS the final solution are they sticking to their guns and saying it was a success? Are they still making new aos models?
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Aug 27, 2016 08:32
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Leperflesh posted:Epic Armageddon is the best (as in, most balanced and well-designed ruleset) game GW ever made. Some folks who really liked the lord of the rings game might argue about it maybe. It's still a thriving community. There's a link to the GW Specialist Games thread in the OP: go check it out. There are regular tournaments, a ton of very very well playtested fan-made semi-official army lists beyond the handful that GW published, and enough third-party model support that with that + eBay you can put together a workable 3k point army for a reasonable price. same
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Aug 27, 2016 11:09
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Fauxtool posted:that makes AoS the final solution They released a $30 book that adds points and structured lists back  Game is still trash
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Aug 27, 2016 11:29
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2nd ed for me was Warhammer 40k: Ogryns in a chimera edition. Ripper guns couldn't miss from close range, so you'd just roll up the chimera, pile out your Ogryns, roll a billion sustained fire dice and then a billion more depending on what you rolled, remove a unit and jump back in the chimera and roll on down to the next one. Then some rear end in a top hat harlequin would roll ten sixes in a row and a monofilament wire would turn everything into mush.
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Aug 27, 2016 12:13
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For me it was a random virus outbreak wiping out an Eldar or Ork flank immediately after deployment.
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Aug 27, 2016 12:44
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Back to GW is Bad chat for a moment, it seems their latest lovely move is the new 'special edition' miniature to coincide with the new White Dwarf magazine. That's right, they repainted and repackaged the Slayer Hero.  Talk about lazy, I mean at what point did Grombrindal ever even take the Oath? I have one of the metal ones (that came free with WD a couple of decades ago iirc) and he had heavy armour and a greataxe, this guy looks nothing like him!
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Aug 27, 2016 13:25
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For me 2e was orks being completely useless in h2h compared to my buddy's Space Wolves due to the way WS worked, so I relied on bullshit random things like squig catapults. Squig catapults were cheap and bypassed all the normal defensive rules to just eat any terminator or marine on a 1-2 on a d6. 48" range and the template stays in play, moving 2d6" in a random direction each round, attacking anything it moves across. Each template only went away on a 4+ on a turn it killed something - if you missed, they always hung around. We had 12 or more templates on the table sometimes. The only things in the game they couldn't eat were avatars, hive tyrants, and greater daemons.
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Aug 27, 2016 13:35
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Zark the Damned posted:Back to GW is Bad chat for a moment, it seems their latest lovely move is the new 'special edition' miniature to coincide with the new White Dwarf magazine. You can forge your own narrative that Grombrindal took the Oath!
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Aug 27, 2016 14:56
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He saw what happened with AoS and wanted to kill himself.
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Aug 27, 2016 15:12
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i thought he was already dead and came back as a vengeance ghost
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Aug 27, 2016 18:08
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http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/08/leaked-images-showing-off-details-of.html I'm Geomortis.
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Aug 28, 2016 17:02
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Proving that once again miniatures are a garbage hobby for garbage people, there's two people on the minipainting subreddit right now getting into a fight because one of them described Asian people as "Orientals". And people ask me why I am worried about the new Studio Tomahawk game set in the Congo...
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Aug 28, 2016 17:44
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