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computer parts posted:Emphasis being recorded.
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Aug 27, 2016 16:49
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Geriatric Pirate posted:You seriously think their 100x over-representation in theft statistics is because of underreporting? Does it control for other factors like poverty?
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Aug 27, 2016 16:50
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Andrast posted:Obviously the solution here is to label all of them criminals. That will surely help these issues. It's one extreme to label them all criminals, it's another extreme to pretend like there's no problem and that they're successful businessmen who only racists have a problem with. Nitrousoxide posted:Does it control for other factors like poverty? No, they're simple summary statistics. They're not aiming to show a causal relationship between ethnicity and crime (not that controlling for poverty is very useful for that if poverty is a mediating variable)
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Aug 27, 2016 16:56
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Toplowtech posted:Unrecorded murders and manslaughters? Are you blaming the gypsies for missing persons too? How do they know the ethnicity of the perpetrator? Either they already caught them, or they're guessing about the ethnicity.
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Aug 27, 2016 16:57
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Nitrousoxide posted:Does it control for other factors like poverty? It's a crime statistic, why should it? The sociological roots are complicated, and yes, poverty and lack of benign interactions with people outside their communities are the main factors, but he's right that it's hard to get a constructive dialogue going between them and the majority, when lots of people are actually afraid of the Romani...
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Aug 27, 2016 16:59
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computer parts posted:How do they know the ethnicity of the perpetrator? Either they already caught them, or they're guessing about the ethnicity. Are you trying to insinuate that Gypsies are under- or over-represented in that graph?
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Aug 27, 2016 17:00
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computer parts posted:How do they know the ethnicity of the perpetrator? Either they already caught them, or they're guessing about the ethnicity.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:00
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Toplowtech posted:Attack it on the fact it's solved crimes and condemned people then, which don't mean the condemned people are the guilty ones and it may be linked to discriminatory behavior by the police. If you notice, I was quoting the robbery statistic. But you are right that there is a history of pinning crimes on disadvantaged people too.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:01
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The stat about the robberies is about people suspected of robbery, not convicted ones.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:04
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17.4 for murder/manslaughter is still pretty insane and kinda indicate a really strong presence in organized crime structures. But that may be my Italian origins clouding my judgment.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:08
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Andrast posted:The stat about the robberies is about people suspected of robbery, not convicted ones. Even though "epäilty" translates to "suspect", it's talking about solved crimes. The report (https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/152533/TTA83_Lehti_2008.pdf?sequence=1) talks about "syyllistyneistä" (=guilty) when quoting the same numbers.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:14
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Even though "epäilty" translates to "suspect", it's talking about solved crimes. The report (https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/152533/TTA83_Lehti_2008.pdf?sequence=1) talks about "syyllistyneistä" (=guilty) when quoting the same numbers. Oh my bad then. Regardless, it's a pretty worrying statistic either way.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:16
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Actually Finland just returned to growth after about 8 years of doing nothing with unemployment falling almost 1 percentage point since the government gained power (and that's even with the left-wing throwing a hissy fit and going on strike). Things that changed: 3 center-right to right parties are in charge now. Isn't that weird? 1. Finland had a center-right goverment for the first four of those "eight years of doing nothing" (unless you think that the presence of the Greens as the government's punching bag somehow negates the fact that it was run by the same parties that run the government now and use the True Finns as a punching bag) 2. The unemployment is currently a whole of 0,6% less than at the comparable time of last year. Your call on whether that's a vast achievement or not - especially compared to the government's grandiose promises and the fact that the full effect of this government's austerity policies is not visible yet. 3. Yeah it was truly a horrible thing for the trade union movement to go on a daylong strike to protest the fact that the government was trying to junk the entire Finnish labor-market model. No reason to blame the government's tin-eared bully-boy tactics nosirree. 4. Out of those 8 years, there was maybe 2 years of expansionary fiscal policy and after that a combination of austerity (though less than what is being done now) and the deficits still going up due to unemployment benefits going up due to rising unemployment etc. Come on, this is pretty basic stuff here. Not all deficit spending is expansionary. 5. Large increases in wages, what the hell? 
Stefu fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 17:20
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Toplowtech posted:17.4 for murder/manslaughter is still pretty insane and kinda indicate a really strong presence in organized crime structures. But that may be my Italian origins clouding my judgment. Part of that is because there are several active blood feuds among Finnish romani families. Not really organized crime in the sense you are probably thinking.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:21
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doverhog posted:Part of that is because there are several active blood feuds among Finnish romani families. Not really organized crime in the sense you are probably thinking.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:23
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Andrast posted:There are still a lot of stereotypes about them being thieves and similar stuff here though. Sure, but I'm speaking relatively - never seen any loving frogs anywhere, that's for sure
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Aug 27, 2016 17:26
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Will the EU really be able to last without unified fiscal policy? How will the EU stop the greek crisis frim repeatibg itself as the EU cannot enforce fiscal policy to stop rampant borrowing
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Aug 27, 2016 17:40
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blowfish posted:Sounds like much more successful integration. I guess so. One major problem in Europe is that they are a parallel society with own laws and organized into clans. Gypsy "kings" can become filthy rich from organized crime and therefore are quite interested in keeping things the way they are. These Gypsy kings aren't interested in children from their community going to school, they want them on the streets begging, pickpocketing and being part of some welfare fraud, where they have to pass on most of their "income" to the next level. The control they exert over their subjects is nearly total, you're not allowed to marry without your chefs approval, which has to be earned. So, obviously, Gypsies emigrating to the US and no longer being subject to this exploitation tend to fare better than those who are still in the clutches of their Clan structures. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 17:47
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Toplowtech posted:So basically open vendettas? Charming. The existence of the feuds is acknowledged and members of the feuding families are supposed take great care to avoid each other, so it's not like an all out war or anything like that.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:57
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Stefu posted:1. Finland had a center-right goverment for the first four of those "eight years of doing nothing" (unless you think that the presence of the Greens as the government's punching bag somehow negates the fact that it was run by the same parties that run the government now and use the True Finns as a punching bag)  Yes, I'm talking about the 20% increase in labor costs during a time when GDP or exports have not risen at all. Funny how you insist that we've been through "austerity" when both government spending and wages have both ballooned without any improvements in productivity etc. I'm absolutely in agreement that Vanhanen II and Kiviniemi were disasters that did the opposite of what they should have done (then again their situation was a bit different and the structural problems weren't as clear at the time). The current government is a lot better. 0.6% decrease in unemployment from a base rate of 10% or so in a year of government, especially given the tantrums thrown by the labor movement (not just the strike but repeated delays in negotiations with the government on a compromise) is pretty good. Also, your idea that the government "only" increased the deficit through unemployment spending is dumb not just because that's still spending (it's called an automatic stabilizer for a reason), but also because increases in työttömyysturva made up less than a quarter* of the increase in government spending between 2008 and 2015. If we'd had actually austerity, we wouldn't have had an increase, period, let alone one that's not even driven by unemployment benefits kicking in. You can pretty easily see that in the data here: http://valtionbudjetti.fi/ *1.5 billion increase in unemployment benefits, 9 billion euro increase in government spending Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 18:28
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Actually Finland just returned to growth after about 8 years of doing nothing with unemployment falling almost 1 percentage point since the government gained power (and that's even with the left-wing throwing a hissy fit and going on strike). Things that changed: 3 center-right to right parties are in charge now. Isn't that weird? It's always charming when right wing cunts like you describe the attempts to protect workers as "hissy fits". If the center right can lower unemployment by 1% maybe the far right can manage 2%? Time to practice unique styles of saluting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 27, 2016 18:30
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Nitrousoxide posted:But like why? Here in the USA we don't really have Romani. But we have Amish, and their communities are like tourist attractions. I mean I'm sure they get a bit of the other shoulder from some people, but people travel from states away to see how they live and buy trinkets and awesome fudge from them. The centuries of prejudice aren't built on "they're charmingly quaint weirdos who live in the past (actually their society is very oppressive but they're funny to gawk at like they're exhibits in a human zoo so we like them anyway)" like for the Amish. The prejudice for the Roma is that they're roaming packs of thieves. One of the French slurs for a Roma is "voleur de poule" (lit. "chicken thief"). Nowadays they're not accused of stealing chickens anymore, but they're still suspected of being burglars and pickpockets. There have been a number of criminal cases that haven't helped their reputation, either: several gangs of Roma specialized in stealing cars or scrap metal (mostly copper, which they get by stealing power or phone lines, especially on railroads) have been caught. That's a problem with all minorities: they have less prospects, so they're more likely to resort to crime, so they get a bad reputation as a whole, so they get less prospects... Breaking this vicious circle is really hard.
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Aug 27, 2016 19:16
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Kurtofan posted:Gypsies don't live in carriages carried by horses In Tintin they do
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Aug 27, 2016 19:21
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Flowers For Algeria posted:In Tintin they do
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Aug 27, 2016 19:25
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Regarde Aduck posted:It's always charming when right wing cunts like you describe the attempts to protect workers as "hissy fits". If the center right can lower unemployment by 1% maybe the far right can manage 2%? Time to practice unique styles of saluting. the right doesn't really care about loweing unemployment because lower work conditions depend on a massive pool of desperate unemployed people.
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Aug 27, 2016 20:43
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Geriatric Pirate posted:
Hi, im not finnish and dont know the particulars of the finnish economy, but: 1) labour costs are not wages. as per the definition of eurostat: Labour costs are made up of wages and salaries plus non-wage costs such as employers' social contributions. The share of non-wage costs in the whole economy was 24.0 % in the EU-28 and 26.0 % in the euro area, with the lowest in Malta (6.6 %) to highest in France (33.2 %). 2) The conclusion you stated, using that graph, is not precisely in line with oecd and WEC reports i've read. Because i cant find a way to imbed the graph code, you can check here: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDBI_I4 Fun fact, if you split the graph by quarterly periods, you see that in Finland the labour cost soared in end 2008, all of 2009 and in 2012,wonder what happened in those years. You can also adjust versus GDP growth vs Productivity growth vs Wage grownth and it will display the yearly changes, and can also filter by sectors of the economy. From what i can see in my deeply sleepy state is that Finland has been seen anemic growth , where labour costs changes at a slighly larger rate than wage grownt, exept for those years i stated where labour cost grow at three times the rate of the growth of wages.( 2009 for example saw Unit Labour Costs rise by more than 9% and Labour compensation per employee raised by 2, while Gross value added per person employed crashed by more than 6 %) The ULC also seems to be growing because aparently the finnish are working less hours since 2012. You can also see that increases in Gross value added per person employed and productivity are only catched up the next year in terms of wage growth , which i guess means the system works? PS: that oecd site just makes my statistician side all guidy, ima gonna spend all of next week fiddling with it.
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Aug 28, 2016 02:41
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Hi, im not finnish and dont know the particulars of the finnish economy, but: You are just rewording what he wrote not actually making a different argument?? Insurance and pension benefits are most definetely part of the employee renumeration as well? I don't understand what you are actually trying to argue here.
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Aug 28, 2016 07:11
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Hi, im not finnish and dont know the particulars of the finnish economy, but: So what you're saying is that labor costs are mostly wages, and even in the case where the non-wage part is the largest, the wage part is still 2/3rd of the labor cost. Also the non-wage part is used to fund stuff such as health care, which means that if it was reduced, the employees would have to spend more of their wage on insurance, meaning it'd be at best a wash for them. People who whine about labor costs just want employees to be miserable.
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Aug 28, 2016 11:27
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LIke i said , i was sleepy. My point was using a graph stating raising labour costs and then claiming in the next sentence of wild wage increases is not entirely honest. Basically, ULC is complicated , and takes into acount the GDP per person employed, GDP generated by hour worked,productivity and other factors. If your GDP basically imploded by factors external to your economy or labour market situation, your ULC will rise even if all other factors remain the same.Even the productivity index takes into acount GDP per person, though by diferent weight factors. It follows that the analysis should be done at the element that presents the wildest anomaly, GDP. and why 1) GDP crashed and 2) Why its grownt has been so anemic. and while 1) was basically "LOL, Capitalism", 2) can be firmly pointed to "austerity". I know this might be too much effort in this, the most fair and balanced thead in the most troll free comedy site in the internet, but if we are going to argue about the color of the sky , it would be nice if we all used the same definition for the spectrum of light. PS: boy, this was a fishmech like post, jesus.carry on. Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Aug 28, 2016 |
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Aug 28, 2016 11:40
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ChainsawCharlie posted:PS: boy, this was a fishmech like post, jesus.carry on.
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Aug 28, 2016 11:54
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ChainsawCharlie posted:LIke i said , i was sleepy. Right, but the point is that GDP didn't "crash", GDP stayed flat, or fell a few percent (5% according to "tradingeconomics.com", no idea what their data source is). You can try to pick little parts there where GDP did fall but there's no denying the overall trend over the whole time horizon. If over 6 years GDP is flat and ULC is up 20%, clearly labor costs went up. That's not even starting with why labor costs should be tracking productivity instead of being set arbitrarily...
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Aug 28, 2016 18:16
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Because labour cost will always increase over time, even just based on inflation and wage adjustements,so you track them vs gdp by employee and productivity.if your productivity increases at a greater rate than labour cost youre efectivaly improving labour cost efeciency. And again, the greatest rise in labour costs was in 2009 by 9 percentile points vs wage growth of 2 points.turns out when your gdp shits the bed its bad for a shitload of things, including cost of labour.
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Aug 28, 2016 18:32
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Because labour cost will always increase over time, even just based on inflation and wage adjustements,so you track them vs gdp by employee and productivity.if your productivity increases at a greater rate than labour cost youre efectivaly improving labour cost efeciency. I don't know why you're so hung up on your one datapoint when I'm telling you that over 8 years one number has gone down by about 5% while the other has gone up by 20%, and the people who received that 20% are complaining that it's not enough. Also yes the point of tracking ULC is to compare labor costs to productivity, I have no idea what your point is supposed to be. So when ULC goes up, as it has, it means that workers are being paid more per € of value produced. Which might be beneficial in some situations but has now effectively stalled the Finnish economy. And no, like I said already, it's not just driven by GDP, it's driven by wages going up.
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Aug 28, 2016 19:02
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Jesus loving christ on a cracker, are we the same species? Am i speaking in whale song? Im hung up because you're using a flawed interpretation of a statistics as a foundation for your point! this is what is refereed in academic, political and gentlemanly circles as "bad form". Your argument is just "NUMBER BIGGER! BAD!" https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/unit-labour-costs.htm Acording to this ULC for norway is 116.9,Finland is 110.4, so im shocked that norways economy isn't on fire right now.Incidently , greeces is 86.7 so im doubly shocked that greece's economy isnt booming! Since i dont have two years to do a post grad on the finish economy, i cant be 100% sure, but im gonna go with "slight increase in wages are not the cause of a stagnant economy" , because that never happened in the history of the world. Speaking of hung, this whole conversation as made my boner size drop by 90%, but it also raised my desire to commit suicide by almost 100%. Numbers! Awesome! gently caress.
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Aug 29, 2016 01:03
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Jesus loving christ on a cracker, are we the same species? Am i speaking in whale song? Oh ok your 3 data point cross section doesn't support your widely held belief, therefore ULC are irrelevant, but I'm the one missing numbers? Lol Norway is a resource based economy where the resource's price is falling, hence it kind of makes sense that ULC will rise. Norway's unemployment has risen and GDP is growing very slowly. Does that mean the situation there is bad? No, but I'm not sure why you think the numbers on the website are comparable to each other. The series are an index, not absolute numbers. You don't compare Finland's economy and current index to Norway and their index, you compare differences. As it happens, unemployment grew faster in Norway than Finland from 2010-2016, even if Norway's base rate of unemployment is much lower. While 2 years of training in economics is probably a waste, I would recommend you open up Wikipedia, read up on what indexes are, and think about why a cross-sectional comparison doesn't make sense when you have a baseline rate on one side and an index measuring changes om the other.
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Aug 29, 2016 03:40
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Einbauschrank posted:I guess so. One major problem in Europe is that they are a parallel society with own laws and organized into clans. Gypsy "kings" can become filthy rich from organized crime and therefore are quite interested in keeping things the way they are. These Gypsy kings aren't interested in children from their community going to school, they want them on the streets begging, pickpocketing and being part of some welfare fraud, where they have to pass on most of their "income" to the next level. The control they exert over their subjects is nearly total, you're not allowed to marry without your chefs approval, which has to be earned. This is a rather simplistic and borderline offensive characterization of Roma society. I believe the gypsy "kings" you're referring to are the bare, more-or-less big-men of a clan who typically perform rather mundane administrative and social leadership functions, even if some are involved in crime, or tacitly tolerate it. Poor educational attainment is a problem for gypsies outside of Europe too, the VOA article I posted includes interviews with a student in the US who may be the first in his family to complete basic education. It's also a serious problem among Latin American Romani in Argentina and Brazil, and if you what they themselves write it's an issue their communities are seriously concerned with. That said resistance to involvement with gadjo society and education in particular appears to be a widespread cultural norm among Romani everywhere, it's not comically evil Gypsy King with a curled mustache bare chest and poofy pants pulling kids from school, its their parents or the kids themselves withdrawing. According to many Romani themselves they often experience a distressing conflict in schools between their desire to better themselves and their family economically and the perceived (and often real, imagine a classmate repeating your post to a Romani child in school verbatim, how do you think they'd take it?) threat to their identity. In the United States and Latin America gypsies continue to practice many aspects of traditional culture that make them stick out in Europe. The clan system is intact, many maintain a semi-migratory lifestyle (in America this often means adopting a skilled trade, two persons profiled in the VOA article were pavement contracts for example, in Argentina many got into the business of buying and selling used cars and moving them long distances), and yes they still have "kings," though their ability to enforce traditional law has declined in recent decades in the United States. When they still commonly pay bride prices one wonders just how assimilated they can be. That said I think the easy with which Americans accept dual identities has led to perhaps greater assimilation in the United States than Europe, and also ironically the relative acceptance of their customs by the state has also led to greater integration. For example traditional gypsy courts in California struggling to enforce traditional prescriptions started using the state courts to add legal enforcement of arrangements which had previously been supported by superstitions and community bonds, and in doing so have inadvertently undermined the traditional social systems which support Romani society by outsourcing them to gadjo courts. There's also evidence belief in ritual pollution is steadily declining among American gypsies.
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Aug 29, 2016 04:31
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oh my loving god, please make the stupidity stop http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/nicolas-sarkozy-envisage-de-reviser-la-constitution-pour-interdire-le-burkini_1825066.html Sarko wants to amend the constitution to ban the burkini There isn't a "gently caress you" big enough for this horrid little man.
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Aug 29, 2016 08:44
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Cat Mattress posted:oh my loving god, please make the stupidity stop Perhaps we should amend the constitution to ban Sartko? Just food for thought...
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Aug 29, 2016 09:18
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Greece Was the Prologue posted:By now, the story of Syriza’s capitulation to the European creditor institutions is well-known. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/08/greece-debt-austerity-syriza-tsipras-grexit-eu/
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Aug 29, 2016 11:10
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Lucky bastards should be grateful to be part of the EU and euro!
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