|
I really, really enjoy Watchmen - more than most, especially since it took an ending that in my opinion was absolute garbage and made it very, very good and more cohesively complete than the original - but claiming that it was "perfect" is a real loving stretch. The movie's soundtrack, and how that soundtrack is employed takes it down a couple of notches by itself. It probably does have the single best credits sequence ever, though. That much I'll grant.
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 00:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
Those 2 crazy people aside, yeah it's a great intro sequence.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 00:29
|
|
|
The soundtrack is actually perfect. I laugh every time some self-righteous nerd holds up Nite-Owl and Silk Spectre's sex scene as evidence that Zack Snyder played it completely straight and "missed the point" while Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah blares over it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 00:50
|
|
|
Roth posted:Wouldn't you actually have to have read the source material to know if it's a perfect adaptation or not? That's completely fair! I know I got flack for having mentioned, last time Watchmen came up, that I have read a bunch of analysis of the book and stuff, but I dunno, there isn't that much lost. I mean yeah lots of content shaved, but as far as for the themes and messages, it's rather well conveyed for such a denser medium. And I know Alan Moore doesn't like the stylized action and I get the argument that it goes against the realistic idea presented in the comic that violence isn't a pretty kung fu movie, but I don't think it really messes up any of what it's trying to say and, importantly, adds flare to what could otherwise be a series of dull monologues. I actually just remembered I have seen bits of the original-the motion comic, specifically the last chapter and Watchmaker, and there's not much difference in quality between endings, but holy shitballs Watchmaker is beautiful and the narrator is loving amazing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 01:01
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:That's completely fair! I know I got flack for having mentioned, last time Watchmen came up, that I have read a bunch of analysis of the book and stuff, but I dunno, there isn't that much lost. Yeah once again, you literally cannot know this, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 01:34
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:Yeah once again, you literally cannot know this, though. Well, what doesn't the movie get across? On a side note unrelated to the movie's status as an adaption, I just wanna say that this will always be one of the greatest superhero movie scenes ever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 01:39
|
|
|
I know people say that the ending of the movie version made more sense, but I think it was changed so that the ending could be streamlined for the sake of it being a movie, rather than because it made more sense. But that's not what I think makes the ending worse. In my opinion, the fake alien isn't what's missing from the scene, it's the grotesque horror of New York being covered in mutilated corpses, with blood running down buildings and the streets. It really sells what a horrible event it is seeing the actual devastation of New York laid out over those pages, compared to the clean and sterile version of the movie just being a crater. It's a weird move considering how much the movie has reveled in violence and gore up until that point. It's sort of a similar reason why I think Evangelion's gore works, while Elfen Lied's falls so flat for me. One is gory in a realistic manner, while the other is just gallons of red paint being sprayed all over the place. There's other things that bother me about the ending change. For instance, I don't think it makes any more sense that the world unites because of Doctor Manhattan going rogue instead of a fake alien. They're both external threats, which is the point, but I think arguing endlessly about that is really dumb anyway. That's just the biggest difference between the two that I think makes the film version less than perfect. I could nitpick about minor things like Ozymandias' costume being changed just to make an in-joke about Batnipples, or how the way Rorshach speaks sounds like he's trying too hard to sound scary rather than the calm and monotone sociopath he was in the comic, but that's more trivial complaints than anything else. Also, I have to agree with what some other people were saying. The soundtrack choices at certain points are laughable. I really could not take the Vietnam scene with Ride of the Valkyries playing over it seriously at all, and I don't think that was supposed to be the point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 01:58
|
|
|
Hate to be all SuperMechaGodzilla, but I'm gonna say the Ride of the Valkyries scene was intended to come off the same as the sex scene, a deflation of heroic, patriotic myth into a somewhat disturbing farce. It certainly wasn't meant to be played straight, regardless of f it hit the right irony notes or not.Roth posted:
I don't think it's better per say, just the economy of space inherent to being a movie and not a comic. The comic's bit going into the genetic engineering and all the artists and scientists Ozzy got to work for him was good, but it wouldn't work in a movie, and you also have to explain that everyone thinks the alien died because it couldn't live in our dimension, and then making the monster itself not look silly, etc. "Dr. Manhatten did it, everyone be united against him now" is the exact same idea, just a lot more succinct. You make a good point about the gore, and I'll say, thinking about it, that is something lost in the adaption process because I don't think it'd be as impactful without the minor characters and seeing their reactions. Without that it'd just be a retread of the (stellar) Terminator 2 opening and extremely bland compared to the personal violent horror of previous scenes like Jon blowing up the gangsters. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 02:12
|
|
|
I realize that, that's why I said I think that the ending was changed more to streamline it for a movie, rather than because it inherently made more sense.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 02:17
|
|
|
Ahh, I misunderstood, sorry.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 02:18
|
|
|
The film's ending completely misunderstands the cold war situation and the role of Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan is American. He is fundamentally defined by his connection to America. The fact that he left Earth was shown as the motivating factor in increased Russian aggression. If, out of nowhere, Moscow was nuked by Dr. Manhattan the nuclear weapons would be flying instantly because they would have no reason to believe that Dr. Manhattan wasn't acting on American interests and "New York was nuked too" wouldn't matter in the time frame involved because they would need instant response. It's a poor ending change that streamlines things while weakening the overall idea of the story. Dr. Manhattan is so connected to America that he can't fit the idea of an unknown outsider the way the alien can. Watchmen is not a bad film really but it's a weak one. It's too in-love with the comic to be its own thing but confident enough to make more significant changes throughout. It doesn't go far enough in either direction. (The opening is still amazing though.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 02:18
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The film's ending completely misunderstands the cold war situation and the role of Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan is American. He is fundamentally defined by his connection to America. The fact that he left Earth was shown as the motivating factor in increased Russian aggression. If, out of nowhere, Moscow was nuked by Dr. Manhattan the nuclear weapons would be flying instantly because they would have no reason to believe that Dr. Manhattan wasn't acting on American interests and "New York was nuked too" wouldn't matter in the time frame involved because they would need instant response. I'll accept this point as well, two for two yall! 
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 02:20
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:Those 2 crazy people aside, yeah it's a great intro sequence. It's peak Snyder in some ways, given it's a montage of carefully chosen slow-mo shots set to a very obvious musical cue.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 02:28
|
|
|
I think the story effectively otherizes and ostracizes Dr Manhattan enough that he can be considered separate from any nation state.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:13
|
|
|
greatn posted:I think the story effectively otherizes and ostracizes Dr Manhattan enough that he can be considered separate from any nation state. To the audience, maybe, but the public still thought of him as the American god/superman, I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:20
|
|
|
The audience is really all that matters
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:22
|
|
|
Yeah, but the criticism is that, in universe, Russia just would have gotten MAD(heh) instead of taking the time to realize the US was also attacked. Though it does add to the "peace will not last" factor, I spose.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:26
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:Yeah, but the criticism is that, in universe, Russia just would have gotten MAD(heh) instead of taking the time to realize the US was also attacked. Though it does add to the "peace will not last" factor, I spose. The entire world saw Manhattan flash out of a news conference and go to Mars. Not hard to imagine both Russia and the US starting to wonder about his allegiance. The next thing anyone sees of him is his attacking major cities around the world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:34
|
|
|
Jeez you guys, I accept a well reasoned point and then yall start defending my stance for me equally reasonably.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:35
|
|
|
greatn posted:The audience is really all that matters No, in this case, the plot specifically revolves around the people in-story believing it. Cythereal posted:The entire world saw Manhattan flash out of a news conference and go to Mars. Not hard to imagine both Russia and the US starting to wonder about his allegiance. The next thing anyone sees of him is his attacking major cities around the world. "Russia would start to doubt Dr. Manhattan's allegence" doesn't mesh with "they would assume a Dr. Manhattan attack on Moscow was a completely unrelated-to-America attack." Likewise even if they did, there is no reason Manhattan becoming a rogue threat wouldn't change people's views on things. America's trained attack dog got off the leash and bit its handler is very different from the alien thing which is a direct reference to a Ronald Reagan quote: "Perhaps we need some outside universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world." Doctor Manhattan is divorced from the human condition and yet is also still American. This is a fundamental part of the story. We, the audience, see him gradually grow beyond humanity but the people in-story do not and have no reason to consider him Not American. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:38
|
|
|
That could all be hand waved away with any number of explanations, but said explanations would not be at all interesting or add anything to the film other than verisimilitude. I mean, if they saw a giant squid in their street and dead everywhere why would they not assume THAT wasn't some experimental American weapon? Technically it was!
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:40
|
|
|
greatn posted:I mean, if they saw a giant squid in their street and dead everywhere why would they not assume THAT wasn't some experimental American weapon? Technically it was! Because in this case A) It ONLY appeared in New York. B) People worldwide got psychic flashes explaining it. C) It was fundamentally inhuman in a horrifying and unbelievable way, specifically crafted by master creators to feel alien and inhuman and uncomfortable. And again, all of this ignores the fact that the unifying alien thing is a specific reference to the idea (again, see Reagan quote above) that humanity could only be unified by something fundamentally inhuman and divorced from us. Dr. Manhattan isn't that. He has someone who can transcended humanity but not someone lacking human reference points to other people. The movie tries to 'smooth it out' by having the attacks happen worldwide and have them focused on Dr. Manhattan and in both cases it weakens things. That isn't to say it couldn't work but rather than it changes the tone and message of the story but Watchmen (the film) doesn't change the rest of the story to go with that. 90% of Watchmen is taken directly from the book and then it makes small changes in the service of smoothing things out that drastically change things. Nite Owl attacks Adrian instead of being a complacent partner. Dr. Manhattan never tells Adrian it never ends. The 'horrifying alien' is the American Superman who attacks the entire world. It's all minor changes but they are changes to a story that is tightly crafted so they ring more false. Edit: Also it isn't a case "maybe it's an American weapon." Dr. Manhattan defined America. Everything from its technology to its position in the world. He was part nuclear weapon and part god. His role as the American Superman is a major part of the entire story. Going "well maybe he just isn't American anymore" doesn't work because America is literally built on Dr. Manhattan's accomplishments. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:42
|
|
|
In the comic it's unrealistic they didn't think it was an attack by Japan. Japan has been developing giant thing technology for decades.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:42
|
|
|
I should note that I'm not saying "it has to be the squid or bust." Replacing the giant squid with an alien UFO crashing into New York would not be a perfect fix but would probably create something more 'plausible' than psychic genetic squid for the audience. The flaw isn't that it isn't the squid, the flaw is in using Dr. Manhattan who has a specific role in the story and is forced into a different role without anything else changing. Hell, just look at this change: Dr. Manhattan's attack is, presumably, intentional. He launched an attack on mankind for... what reason? To threaten then for using nuclear weapons? Because of his anger at being assaulted? Something entire entirely? The "alien squid" isn't an attack. It's an accident. A horrifying accident that forces humanity to confront the idea of a threat, but not an actual attack. Dr. Manhattan is presented in the story as a God or a Godlike Being. Now he is raining down punishment on humanity. In essence Adrian has created a terrifying Old Testament god who smites unbelievers for going against his rules. Humanity uniting in the face of that is not the same as a unity in the face of aliens. Manhattan has become the new god of the world or a threat that must be handled as soon as possible before he strikes again. This isn't "in the future' but rather "in the now." Dr. Manhattan is a human being. He had lovers, he had friends, he was an American soldier who fought for American interests. The viewer sees him become a God but to the average person he's a weirdo who gave people cancer and then came back and blew up a bunch of cities. That is terrifying but it isn't alien. It means America's trained attack dog got off the leash and is going on a rampage. And none of this is inherently bad except the entire rest of the story is still rooted deeply in its Cold War heart. You could do a Watchmen about this and do it well but you'd have to be willing (as Snyder wasn't) to change things. Create a whole new Watchmen, maybe using the structure of the original but using the structure of the original to create a cohesive story instead of bolting a new ending on to a tightly crafted work.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 03:59
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:In the comic it's unrealistic they didn't think it was an attack by Japan. Meanwhile on Monster Island: Mothra: Godzilla, I'm not a Toho serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my masterstroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." SMASH CUT TO MECHAGODZILLA STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF A DECIMATED TOKYO, ACTIVATING A SELF-DESTRUCT SEQUENCE Rodan: Hurm TwoPair fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 04:11
|
|
|
Along the "it's like that because it's condensed" thing, I think a UFO is a wonderful idea as far as how to do the alien attack, but Dr. Manhatten doing it fits the movie's specific narrative better because it's more personally tied to the cast. Dropping the alien attack in it would be too...out of left field, and reduces Ozzy's loving with Manhatten to much down to "just so he can't predict the future or stop me" thing, which while it all was slowly built up to in the comics, would come off as rushed and too detached from the plot. I'm not justifying it exactly but yeah I guess it might not make sense in the long run and you'd have to change more to accommodate that change which is already an accommodation. I still think it's one of the best adaptions ever though, as far as bringing the source to the screen. Outdone by maaaaaaaaaybe only The Crow, which is also one of my favorite movies in general of all time. To me, and I realize this is just my interpretation of things and Alan Moore did intend it that way, the story is about the nature of humanity itself and not specifically the Cold War. The Comedian was the Comedian before the Cold War, after all, a grotesque parody and exaggeration humanity's (perceived to be) true nature, and interestingly, basically a double of the Joker's whole thing in The Killing Joke. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 04:19
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:Well, what doesn't the movie get across? Understanding the events that happen that form the story of Watchmen is honestly secondary to appreciating the way that two of the most talented people in the history of the medium convey those events to you. Like you can read a summary of the plot, you can read that there is a 'comic within a comic' that mirrors the arc of the comic, you can read what some blogger thinks it all means, you can appreciate the craftsmanship of the film. You can do these things but you're still missing something. You're kinda like the group of blind dudes feeling different parts of an elephant. If you like comics at all you've got to read it. You've got to read it a few times, poo poo. The level of craft and storytelling that is specific to the medium of comic pages can't be translated or adapted. This is why Alan Moore hates the movies people make of his stuff because he writes for comics. And for the record I actually really like the Watchmen movie.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 04:55
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:This is why Alan Moore hates the movies people make of his stuff because he writes for comics. Well, all the non-Watchmen one do suck hard, as stand alone movies as much as adaptions.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 05:02
|
|
|
There's a few good interpretations of For The Man Who Has Everything.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 05:04
|
|
|
Oh yeah, that Justice League episode loving rocked.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 05:07
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
Alternatively. Okay, so here's something I don't get about the comic, having only watched the Watchmaker motion chapter(as well as the end): What's the distinction between the atomic symbol and the hydrogen one? WickedHate fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Aug 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 05:58
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:Alternatively.  It's also a subtle reference to the fact that Dr. Manhattan is inspired by Captain Atom. (As well as possibly a callback to the Manhattan Project and the first atomic bomb.)
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 06:25
|
|
|
But what I don't get is why Docman doesn't like it but "respects" hydrogen. Why's it more appropriate?
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 06:27
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:But what I don't get is why Docman doesn't like it but "respects" hydrogen. Why's it more appropriate? He says it right there. It's a meaningless symbol. The guy can't even explain what it means beyond 'atoms, atomic power, like that.' He chooses one that has actual meaning. It's an early example of him eschewing the sort of meaningless triviality of being human in favor of pure science.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 06:32
|
|
|
Ahhh, I understand now. That's so fascinating. Thanks, that always bugged me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 06:34
|
|
|
Affleck shared this video today http://comicbook.com/2016/08/29/ben-affleck-reveals-deathstroke-from-justice-league-set-/
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 15:24
|
|
|
Holy poo poo that's a terrible costume. Holy poo poo. Holy poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 15:30
|
|
|
What's with the insane boner DC has had for Deathstroke these past few years
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 15:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
Toxxupation posted:Holy poo poo that's a terrible costume. Holy poo poo. Holy poo poo. He looks like one of the robots from the Mortal Kombat films.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2016 15:39
|
|