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LeftistMuslimObama posted:It seems like he is a true believer in the propaganda about him and his family, unlike his father and grandfather who simply used it to maintain power. What we're seeing in KJU is a ruler who spent too much of his formative years outside the country to have his finger on the pulse of the people, but not long enough to know how to deal with the outside world in a productive way--if that even interests him.
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Aug 30, 2016 15:29
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Yinlock posted:Kim Jong-un what is your loving problem jesus He's probably having trouble maintaining dominance of North Korean politics, or at least feels like he's having trouble, and therefore is purging people he distrusts and perceives as having the political power or acumen necessary to become potential threats. Needless to say, none of these executions had anything to do with "falling asleep".
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Aug 30, 2016 15:58
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Main Paineframe posted:He's probably having trouble maintaining dominance of North Korean politics, or at least feels like he's having trouble, and therefore is purging people he distrusts and perceives as having the political power or acumen necessary to become potential threats. Needless to say, none of these executions had anything to do with "falling asleep". I don't know, I feel like KJU would totally murder a dude for falling asleep in front of him. He seems to be just coasting on his father's amazing setup, but it's showing signs of breaking.
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Aug 30, 2016 16:01
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Kurtofan posted:That's extreme Isn't the bullshit to fact ratio in South Korean coverage of North Korea fairly high? The article just repeats what a single SK paper claims a single nameless source told them. Seems pretty thin.
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Aug 30, 2016 16:11
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Yinlock posted:I don't know, I feel like KJU would totally murder a dude for falling asleep in front of him. Maybe, but it's hard to believe anyone would fall asleep in front of him after the last time he (allegedly) executed someone for (allegedly) falling asleep in front of him. The first rule of oppressive dictatorships is that if someone with political connections or ties of any kind is executed, the actual reason for execution has nothing to do with the excuse given. Doubly so if it's an execution in North Korea, since information that comes out of there is vague and spotty and hard to verify, and the South Korean media publishes an awful lot of bullshit (almost always an unsourced story that appears in one South Korean paper and is promptly picked up and reprinted by the entire world) as a result.
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Aug 30, 2016 16:15
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Yeah, do we have proof that the man was actually executed? Not the first time that someone supposedly executed by INCREDIBLE DEATH turned out to be alive and well in some less-visible party role years later.
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Aug 30, 2016 16:22
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Main Paineframe posted:Maybe, but it's hard to believe anyone would fall asleep in front of him after the last time he (allegedly) executed someone for (allegedly) falling asleep in front of him. The first rule of oppressive dictatorships is that if someone with political connections or ties of any kind is executed, the actual reason for execution has nothing to do with the excuse given. Doubly so if it's an execution in North Korea, since information that comes out of there is vague and spotty and hard to verify, and the South Korean media publishes an awful lot of bullshit (almost always an unsourced story that appears in one South Korean paper and is promptly picked up and reprinted by the entire world) as a result. Again, all this assumes that KJU is actually competent in any way. I'll admit that using the same excuse before is suspicious though. "He fell asleep" just seems like too idiotic an excuse to actually be untrue, but I guess that goes with the whole incompetence thing. also it would be really funny is KJU is so unbelievably boring that multiple people have fallen asleep trying to listen to him, and then much less comedically been murdered for it.
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Aug 30, 2016 18:46
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Yinlock posted:also it would be really funny is KJU is so unbelievably boring that multiple people have fallen asleep trying to listen to him, and then much less comedically been murdered for it. Imagine knowing that you would be murdered for falling asleep and being always on-edge, but KJU being so boring that you fall asleep anyway.
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Aug 30, 2016 19:06
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Yinlock posted:Again, all this assumes that KJU is actually competent in any way. I'll admit that using the same excuse before is suspicious though. If he was really that incompetent, we'd be talking about him in the past tense. He's got plenty of relatives that can serve as a suitable figurehead for any would-be replacement who's in a good enough position to pull a coup. The excuse (assuming it's real, which is always a question because news coming out of North Korea is super unreliable) is likely bad on purpose. For various political reasons, it's typically not a good idea to openly come out and say "we're executing him because Dear Leader doesn't like him", but on the other hand, it's harder to make an example of someone if the justification for execution is too believable. It's rather mundane compared to the broad, sweeping, often-ridiculous accusations hurled during Soviet purges, but the political situation in North Korea is rather different from that of the Soviet Union during Stalin's heyday so it's not surprising that it comes out slightly differently.
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Aug 30, 2016 20:07
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What the gently caress. I just found out that a colleague is a hardcore North Korea defender. Like if the North Koreans didn't like being in a dictatorship they would have overthrown the regime already.
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Aug 30, 2016 20:31
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Jack of Hearts posted:Isn't the bullshit to fact ratio in South Korean coverage of North Korea fairly high? The article just repeats what a single SK paper claims a single nameless source told them. Seems pretty thin. yeah this thing follows the pattern of "regurgitate unconfirmed reports from unnamed rok sources." i look forward to these guys appearing on state tv in a few months
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Aug 30, 2016 23:43
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I don't find it hard to believe that someone would be executed for falling asleep during a Kim speech, but I doubt anyone would fall asleep in the first place. If you can stay awake during a boring work meeting, you can probably stay awake if your life literally depended on it.
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Aug 31, 2016 06:59
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:What the gently caress. I just found out that a colleague is a hardcore North Korea defender. Like if the North Koreans didn't like being in a dictatorship they would have overthrown the regime already. Never go full tankie.
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Aug 31, 2016 07:14
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This isn't the first time we've had reports of death-by-Ack-Ack, wasn't there that purge in 2013? Anyway, I kinda wondered if this would be one of those flak AA or the 8-gun AAs. Probably the latter, disappearing in a puff of smoke isn't visceral enough.
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Aug 31, 2016 08:51
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WarpedNaba posted:This isn't the first time we've had reports of death-by-Ack-Ack, wasn't there that purge in 2013? Homework Explainer posted:yeah this thing follows the pattern of "regurgitate unconfirmed reports from unnamed rok sources." i look forward to these guys appearing on state tv in a few months
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Aug 31, 2016 08:58
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:It seems like he is a true believer in the propaganda about him and his family, unlike his father and grandfather who simply used it to maintain power. He seems to be rapidly approaching the level of senselessly tyrannical behavior that inspires coups even in the most repressed countries. Although I don't know if it would be better or worse for the average North Korean/The rest of the world if NK was run by a competent military leader instead of a crazy Kim. This was said about his dad and grand dad as well, and I doubt it's true. They were all brought up in a ruthless soviet-style nomenklatura, well aware that the people were fed lies about them out the rear end, and that they sat on the real power. Such greed is motivator enough for rule by extreme violence, particularly mixed with the paranoia that comes from no true elections and a nearly-as-powerful military class around you eyeing the crown. WarpedNaba posted:This isn't the first time we've had reports of death-by-Ack-Ack, wasn't there that purge in 2013? We've had one confirmed(-ish) execution by mortar round, these people aren't loving around.
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Aug 31, 2016 11:45
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blowfish posted:Therefore, No, South Korean intelligence/media very commonly make up or exaggerate execution stories about North Korea, ie: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-korea-ri-yong-gil-intelligence-blunder-north-korea/ quote:A former North Korean military chief who Seoul had said was executed is actually alive and in possession of several new senior-level posts, the North's state media said Tuesday. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/10837897/Executed-Kim-Jong-Un-girlfriend-reappears-on-North-Korea-television.html quote:'Executed' Kim Jong-Un girlfriend reappears on North Korea television It is entirely possible - probable even - that this guy will reappear in a few months in a different job. mediadave fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 13:34
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Seems likely that those false reports might be NK trying to weed out spies by providing false information they know will be passed along to SK? Impossible to be sure about the recent reports in any case; visible signs of splintering in the regime will probably lag the actual events by some margin.
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Aug 31, 2016 13:57
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Mozi posted:Seems likely that those false reports might be NK trying to weed out spies by providing false information they know will be passed along to SK? Honestly, most of the false reports are probably just wild rumors, which get reported as fact by the media because a) it's impossible to verify them anyway, and b) there's no reason not to print unreliable news, since readers will believe anything they print because of the popular perception of North Korean being so wild and crazy and incomprehensible, and if it later turns out to be false people will just blame it on the DPRK being so wild and crazy and incomprehensible
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Aug 31, 2016 14:10
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Its perfectly possible that SK lies about NK but NK is still a tyrannical dictatorship where people can be executed for no reason. Just because they've lied before doesn't mean its all untrue and that NK is a wonderful, socialist utopia where everyone's definitely has enough food.
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Aug 31, 2016 14:11
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No one saying that it is, just pointing out that the unreliability of any news coming from North Korea is a long-running gag.
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Aug 31, 2016 14:29
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Yeah the fact that "killed because he fell asleep" is a valid excuse means it's probably actually happened more than once
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Aug 31, 2016 14:54
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North Korea actually does a lot of verifiable horrible poo poo along with active misinformation campaigns both internally and externally facing. That, along with the tightly restricted flow of information means it's always going to be hard to confirm whether rumors coming out of NK are dumb crazy poo poo that didn't happen as opposed to dumb crazy poo poo that did happen.
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Aug 31, 2016 15:45
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If I recall correctly the real reason he had his uncle killed a while ago (might be confusing him with some other guy) was that there was some factory under his uncle's control that Kim wanted more profits from, or something like that.
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Aug 31, 2016 15:52
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Mozi posted:If I recall correctly the real reason he had his uncle killed a while ago (might be confusing him with some other guy) was that there was some factory under his uncle's control that Kim wanted more profits from, or something like that. The reason he had his uncle killed was (thought to be) because his uncle was powerful, influential, and running things somewhat independently with a significant faction and power base of his own. He was perceived as a political threat and potential rival for power, which is why he was executed and most of his close followers and associates were purged, both to eliminate contenders for power and to demonstrate dominance and competence to the North Korean establishment. That much is likely true. The report of one South Korean newspaper saying that they heard from an anonymous source that he was totally sentenced to being torn apart by wild dogs, on the other hand, is almost certainly ridiculous gossip about that wild and crazy North Korea that some bored reporter with page space to fill heard thirdhand on the Chinese border.
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Aug 31, 2016 16:03
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Yeah, and the root sourcing for a lot of the news being SK intelligence services feeding stories to sympathetic SK newspapers doesn't help either. The root issue with everything DPRK politics is that it's either on DPRK TV, or it's from a single possibly questionable source.
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Aug 31, 2016 16:08
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Main Paineframe posted:The report of one South Korean newspaper saying that they heard from an anonymous source that he was totally sentenced to being torn apart by wild dogs, on the other hand, is almost certainly ridiculous gossip about that wild and crazy North Korea that some bored reporter with page space to fill heard thirdhand on the Chinese border. our latest report from an unnamed source is that he was slowly lowered into a vat of boiling metal like in terminator 2
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Aug 31, 2016 18:43
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2016 19:34
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Best Friends posted:Yeah, and the root sourcing for a lot of the news being SK intelligence services feeding stories to sympathetic SK newspapers doesn't help either. The root issue with everything DPRK politics is that it's either on DPRK TV, or it's from a single possibly questionable source. The worst is the SK Christian Orgs, they turn that poo poo up to 11. Like, there are literal concentration camps in the north, why do you make poo poo up? It hurts your cause.
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Sep 1, 2016 01:15
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Cliff Racer posted:I actually don't think we'll have as much to learn from this guy as you all seem to. He was probably given dictats, tasked with carrying out whatever the government wanted him to in London (so bothering the refuges, yes, but mostly regular diplomat stuff) and asked to make money for the regime but other than that its not like he was a big mover and shaker. I'd be more interested in hearing what a higher ranking, if less "sexy," internal defector had to say. I think there's more to be learnt from Thae's (I hate this spelling) wife Oh Sun-Hae because she is from one of the most influential insider families. Her grandfather (or grand uncle) fought the Japanese in Manchuria with Kim Il-Sung's tiny guerrilla band. Her father, a war orphan, was reared by Kim Il-Sung's wife, and he was considered to be a close friend and a top ranking aide to Kim Jong-Il. Ms Oh is from the inner sanctum, and if the Norks abhor marital power imbalance as much as S. Koreans do, it means Thae's family is important or Thae himself deeply impressed someone important who acted as a match maker. What's intriguing about the Oh family is Ms Oh's brother, Oh Se-uk, a Nork General at the young age of 43, defected to the US in 2004, and has never surfaced publicly meeting with the press or testifying before Congress. Ms Oh's other brother, Oh Se-Won, is also a general. No reports of consequences befalling the Oh family then or after, suggesting a family so influential it could get away with a betrayal no one else could. Ms Oh, with her children (but maybe not all of them), was allowed to accompany her husband to his diplomatic posting in London, which again runs counter to the regime's standing operating procedures. The Oh family was important to Kim IS and Kim JI, but perhaps Kim Jong-Un doesn't feel the same affinity and regard. He's purged many of the old guard, and there is Oh Se-uk's treason, so perhaps Ms Oh received word that the family faced a bleak future.
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Sep 1, 2016 01:54
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Also remember that Jang wasn't actually his uncle, just his uncle-in-law (having married KJI's sister in a political move.) He had no actual blood relation to any of the Kims. To be quite frank, I don't know why media sources constantly push the uncle aspect of the story but suspect that it is due to it being a catchy headline that doubles down on "wacky zany North Korea." And furthermore, remember that just because he was arrested, tried and executed doesn't mean that it was KJU who had pushed for that to happen. Its much more likely that forces within the OGD had been the drivers of that purge, due to Jang having a different base of power from them.
Cliff Racer fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 01:58
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Is NK one virus away from collapse? The medical system is non-existant that small pox is still feared. I couldnt imagine what would happen if Korea collapsed. I mean refugees would create a nasty cesspit on China.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:44
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Someone asked a similar question a while back. The state of health care in North Korea is terrible, with high rates of Hepatitis B and other communicable and easily preventable diseases, and meth abuse often substitutes for real pharmacology. But low population density, combined with a largely rural and immobile population (the average person is lucky to have a bicycle) prevent the kind of scenario you're talking about.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:50
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Halloween Jack posted:Someone asked a similar question a while back. The state of health care in North Korea is terrible, with high rates of Hepatitis B and other communicable and easily preventable diseases, and meth abuse often substitutes for real pharmacology. But low population density, combined with a largely rural and immobile population (the average person is lucky to have a bicycle) prevent the kind of scenario you're talking about. Yea if anything, the main North Koreans subject to epidemics of that sort are the elites, who get to travel around the country and occasionally outside it.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:56
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Halloween Jack posted:Someone asked a similar question a while back. The state of health care in North Korea is terrible, with high rates of Hepatitis B and other communicable and easily preventable diseases, and meth abuse often substitutes for real pharmacology. But low population density, combined with a largely rural and immobile population (the average person is lucky to have a bicycle) prevent the kind of scenario you're talking about. What about the NK Military? Its in shambles and gets worse daily, as you said hep B is rampant. It seems like every time there is a world health risk (zika, ebola) NK regime goes into panic mode. A non moving population is sort of bullshit. Especially in the notrthern villages where people go back and forth between China the risk of disease transmittance seems high. Victor Cha discusses how "NK is 1 pandemic away from collapse" on Vice. https://youtu.be/GVWyWKdhS5s The main topic is nukes but the Pandemic ties into this.
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Sep 1, 2016 04:34
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Setting aside something like ebola, which kills a huge portion of the people who get it, why would that be the end of the regime? A lot of people get sick and some die? People already die of exposure and undernourishment in the less central regions. Epidemics are much less important if you don't care too much about the population's health.
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Sep 1, 2016 05:18
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LeoMarr posted:What about the NK Military? Its in shambles and gets worse daily, as you said hep B is rampant. It seems like every time there is a world health risk (zika, ebola) NK regime goes into panic mode. A non moving population is sort of bullshit. Especially in the notrthern villages where people go back and forth between China the risk of disease transmittance seems high. I don't think the NK Military is so much in shambles (I mean it is) but its not getting 'worse' or anything. NK is an arms supplier to unstable regions around the world and can get some equipment. The lion share of the manpower of the military doesn't really shoot guns, they just do daylabor stuff like farming or construction. The mid 90s was really bad and it really isn't like that anymore since grey market trade opened up.
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Sep 1, 2016 06:34
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Without reopening the tedious clancychat (North Korea isn't going to launch an attack, shut up about artillery), North Korea has successfully tested a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201857/kn-11-and-thaad/ This missile is solid fuelled, unlike the Scud derived missiles North Korea has mostly deployed previously, and like the Musudan/Future ICBM (Which use a different, more powerful liquid fuelled engine - again, not Scud derived*) shows a level of ambition that I think we should take seriously. North Korea isn't doing a Dr Evil 'ransom the world' type deal, if that was their endgame they could easily try that with the Unha series - but they've made no attempt to militarise that rocket. Instead they are just getting on with developing new, more powerful rockets - and as the successful tests of the Musudan and now the KN-11 show, they are making real progress. A relevant article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/14/world/asia/maybe-north-koreas-nuclear-goals-arent-a-farce-after-all.html quote:The country’s weapons programs have long been understood as meant not for immediate military purposes, but to rally North Koreans behind the leadership and extract concessions from foreign governments. North Korea’s bluster, in this view, is not sincere, but just another set piece in an elaborate, never-ending show. *relevant article on this engine: http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201278/north-korea-tests-a-fancy-new-rocket-engine/ quote:We’ve previously considered the possibility that North Korea might cluster 4D10 engines in an ICBM, but clustering 4D10 engines implied a level of sophistication we had not previously observed in North Korea’s missile programs. Well, I guess there is a first time for everything.
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Sep 1, 2016 12:45
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Cliff Racer posted:Setting aside something like ebola, which kills a huge portion of the people who get it, why would that be the end of the regime? A lot of people get sick and some die? People already die of exposure and undernourishment in the less central regions. Epidemics are much less important if you don't care too much about the population's health. Yeah, if the 90's famine didn't cause the regime to collapse, no natural disaster or emergency situation will. Especially since it's easier to shift the blame away with an epidemic.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:07
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WarpedNaba posted:This isn't the first time we've had reports of death-by-Ack-Ack, wasn't there that purge in 2013? It looked like ZPU-4s last year: http://www.hrnk.org/uploads/pdfs/HRNKInsider_Greg_Joe_4_29_15.pdf I made a post about it: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3669823&pagenumber=16&perpage=40#post445294148
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