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That flashlight metaphor and the other explanations really helped me understand it, thanks!
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Aug 31, 2016 16:03
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Jobbo_Fett posted:That GAZ-AAA quad-gun mount When I first saw a photo of it I literally could not believe that a weapon this metal was real.
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Aug 31, 2016 16:27
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Ensign Expendable posted:When I first saw a photo of it I literally could not believe that a weapon this metal was real. GAZ-AAA mounts are the inspiration for the Middle East of today. FACT
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Aug 31, 2016 16:33
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spectralent posted:There's a big difference between "There's a boat somewhere over there" and "There is a boat here, at these exact co-ordinates". This is why you don't want to give your position away to hostile subs, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV8MF-440xg
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Aug 31, 2016 16:49
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VanSandman posted:Don't the folks in the sub/nearby already know that, though? Who is getting new info from active sonar? Active sonar works by screaming at the top of your lungs and listening for the echo to tell what's nearby. Passive sonar works by holding a massive cone up to your ear and listening intently to see what you can hear. So, submarines and boats can use passive sonar to detect each other, by listening for engine noise, or people moving around on the ship, or anything they can pick up, but surface vessels tend to have the disadvantage here because they tend to be big, noisy, full of people, and have the noise of the waves if nothing else making it hard to hear anything. Submarines are built to be as quiet as possible, cowling the engines and running silent when they expect contact, as well as running well below the surface where it's much quieter. A surface vessel using active sonar is going to be detectable from much further away, which is going to attract submarines, and at the very least inform anyone listening of the ship's position, which you still want to avoid if possible. The active sonar ping is going to be detectable much further than it is able to get coherent return signatures from anything, same goes for radar. So using either is broadcasting your position very clearly to everyone around, moreso than it is affording you the ability to detect anything. If you suspect you've already been detected then it allows you to see what's coming, but if you don't think you've been detected, you don't want to just sit with the sonar turned on all day. Especially with radar this is super important because there is such a thing as the ARM, anti-radiation missile, which is a missile whose guidance system is designed to lock onto the strongest radio signature it can find, which is generally a high power tracking radar aimed in its direction. You can do some pretty fun things with radars in general actually, during the Vietnam war when missiles and radars were first taking off, the Vietnamese had a bunch of soviet fan song radars, which are a very prolific and quite old radar, as well as a bunch of SA-2 missiles which are enormous great big fuckers designed to shoot down high altitude strategic bombers. Now, the US was using a bunch of fighter-bombers, not the slow and high altitude things that the missiles were designed to shoot down, so the actual efficacy of the SA-2 was not all that great, but the Vietnamese had quite a lot of them and the American jets weren't enormously well protected against missiles at the time. But what they did often have was a RWR, radar warning receiver, which is essentially a bit of kit which tells you when your aircraft is being hit by radar waves, and thus, when the enemy can probably see you. It has different tones for different types of radar as well, so you know the difference between being hit by a search radar (wide area, not super high resolution, designed to detect whether something is out there) and a tracking radar (high power, focused radar designed to paint and track a target so that missiles can hit it). The Vietnamese liked to do things like turn the tracking radar on and point it at the American jets, and make them start flying evasively, thinking they had missiles on their way to intercept them, but the NVA hadn't actually fired anything. The other thing they liked to do when the Americans started using ARMs, was to do the above, then turn the radar off. The Americans, upon receiving the radar lock, would shoot missiles to home on the radar, but because the early ARMs were quite simple, if the enemy turned their radar off while the missile was in flight, it didn't know what to do and just flew into the ground. Modern missiles have all sorts of fancy programming to get them to remember the last position of the enemy if they lose a lock so this doesn't work much anymore, but it's still fun the kind of trolling you can pull off in electronic warfare. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 17:21
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How deep do (modern) submarines normally go? Are they skirting along just below the surface or going as deep as possible?
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Aug 31, 2016 17:38
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I think it depends what they're doing, normally I think submarines try to surface as much as possible to let fresh air in and use their diesel generators, nuclear subs of course don't need to worry about that but I think the way it works for diesel subs is they run on batteries when submerged and diesel when surfaced, because the engine doesn't work underwater obviously, so they need to surface to recharge. WW2 submarines often featured a deck gun for shooting up merchant ships without wasting torpedoes (not least because the torpedoes weren't hugely reliable) and were treated more like ships that could submerge when needed, rather than always running submerged. Generally they would submerge if they detected approaching aircraft or ships, but otherwise would happily chug along on the surface. A WW2 submarine also needs to be at periscope depth to aim properly, because there are no computers in the torpedoes and everything needs to be done by eye, setting the deflection angle manually and such, much like battleship gunnery. For nuclear submarines it's going to be limited by air supply and I don't know if you'll find much about the operational capabilities of nuclear submarines. Otherwise there's not much point in running deep unless you need to evade something on the surface. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 17:42
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Nuclear submarines generate their own oxygen, and I assume diesel/electric boats can as well. Food supplies is the limiting factor. Nuclear submarines run submerged almost 100% of the time.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:49
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Nuclear submarines generate their own oxygen, and I assume diesel/electric boats can as well. Food supplies is the limiting factor. Nuclear submarines run submerged almost 100% of the time. Huh, didn't know they put oxygen scrubbers on nukes. Makes sense though.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:51
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Koramei posted:How deep do (modern) submarines normally go? Are they skirting along just below the surface or going as deep as possible? There's really no way to answer this that wouldn't be A Bad Idea To Post :-/ OwlFancier posted:Huh, didn't know they put oxygen scrubbers on nukes. Makes sense though. No, they can actually generate oxygen from the water electrolytically and remove CO2/CO/H2 from the atmosphere with catalytic equipment. If you ever get a tour of a nuclear submarine, that tangy kind of funk in the air is amine for pulling CO2 out of the air. Unless you're in berthing, then the tangy funk in the air is something different. hogmartin fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 17:57
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Koramei posted:How deep do (modern) submarines normally go? Are they skirting along just below the surface or going as deep as possible? Officially "deeper than 800 feet". You probably won't get more accurate number than that.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:00
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Gervasius posted:Officially "deeper than 800 feet". You probably won't get more accurate number than that. USS Thresher's crush depth was ~1,300 feet. So factor in decades of technological progress, and you can work out how far down...
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Aug 31, 2016 18:06
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What I'm saying is the reason the UK needs the Vanguard subs isn't to deter Russia, it's because of what they found at the bottom of the Atlantic.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:09
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Speaking of submarines and things that were not supposed to be seen by public in the 1980's, here's MASSIVE imgur album of a soviet Typhoon SSBN, from construction to interior photos. http://imgur.com/a/xi3P3
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Aug 31, 2016 18:13
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Gervasius posted:Speaking of submarines and things that were not supposed to be seen by public in the 1980's, here's MASSIVE imgur album of a soviet Typhoon SSBN, from construction to interior photos. edit: i love the look of modern submarines. Swift and bulbous.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:17
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I am far from an expert on this and the details are obviously super classified but as I understand it the use of different layers of temperature and salinity to mask a submarine signature is a whole lot more important than sheer depth and a lot of technology and training go into maximizing those techniques
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Aug 31, 2016 18:18
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Gervasius posted:Speaking of submarines and things that were not supposed to be seen by public in the 1980's, here's MASSIVE imgur album of a soviet Typhoon SSBN, from construction to interior photos.  If we'd known during the cold war that they had mastered faux-tiger upholstery technology we never would have hosed with them. 
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Aug 31, 2016 18:18
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bewbies posted:It seems to me like emission control is one of the things that laypeople really don't understand very well about the modern battlefield. It is absolutely crazy when you see graphical representations of how emitters "look" to collection assets...it really is like turning on a flashlight in a dark room, except that you can tell exactly who manufactured the flashlight, and when, and you can be pretty sure who the specific owner of the flashlight is, and how much juice the flashlight batteries have left, and etc If they want joes to stop carrying around cell phones, they're gonna have to grow up a bit and just fund a tactical system that lets joe download porn and skype with his wife/girlfriend/camgirl.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:19
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HEY GAL posted:lol if your armor fits, just lol It makes sense to me that a random knight wouldn't have armor that fits perfectly, and even Baron whatever, Lord of who gives a gently caress, but wouldn't the Black Prince's armor fit?
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Aug 31, 2016 18:19
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Elyv posted:It makes sense to me that a random knight wouldn't have armor that fits perfectly, and even Baron whatever, Lord of who gives a gently caress, but wouldn't the Black Prince's armor fit?
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Aug 31, 2016 18:22
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Koramei posted:How deep do (modern) submarines normally go? Are they skirting along just below the surface or going as deep as possible? Underwater sound is complicated as hell. A sound wave traveling from one region to another where the speed of sound differs is going to partially reflect (like an impedance mismatch in a transmission line) or refract, and the speed of sound in water varies with not only temperature and pressure but with salinity. As a result, sound doesn't travel in straight lines underwater, it follows curving paths. So just as one example, if you're A and trying to hear B there are conditions where you will be able to hear B better if you get *further away from him*, rather than closer, because getting further away might put you into a region where the sounds emitted by B curve and reconverge at your location rather than in a region where they've scattered away from you. There are conditions where if you change depth by a small amount you might put yourself on the above or below a region where water temperature changes rapidly from cool to warm, or vice versa, and that temperature gradient will act like a reflecting wall, possibly bouncing sounds away rather than letting them penetrate, or possibly creating a channel that acts almost like a waveguide for particular frequencies, letting them propagate further than they ordinarily would. A submarine is going to try to put itself at a depth that optimizes its ability to look for the target, and minimize the ability of hostiles to hear it. There are a shitload of factors influencing what depth a submarine would operate at, and a number of them are probably classified (like maximum operating depth is). If you're interested, this is pretty much the definitive text: https://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=9780932146274 But there are all kinds of offical Navy docs online: http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm Phanatic fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 18:27
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Gervasius posted:Speaking of submarines and things that were not supposed to be seen by public in the 1980's, here's MASSIVE imgur album of a soviet Typhoon SSBN, from construction to interior photos. Aside from the sweet wood panelling I like the idea of the crew firing hand held AA missiles out of the top of the sail to fend off aircraft if the sub can't submerge. Like one step above sticking a tommy gun out of the hatch.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:31
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I don't have anywhere else to say this but here goes: The Latin word for "restorer" is "Redditor" 
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Aug 31, 2016 18:35
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Nebakenezzer posted:I don't have anywhere else to say this but here goes: Explains all the fascists.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:42
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Nebakenezzer posted:I don't have anywhere else to say this but here goes: I'm pretty sure that's not true. You don't generally see double-d's in Latin (  ), and redeo is more like 'I come back' in any case 
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Aug 31, 2016 18:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Active sonar is basically putting a big sign on your boat saying "THERE IS A BOAT HERE" To be technical about it, I don't think it actually says that, what it says is "THERE IS A BOAT THIS WAY". The 'target' of an active sonar pulse can't know the emission time of the pulse, and so wouldn't be able to compute the range directly. Though with a modern boat and long-rear end towed sonar arrays, you might be able to range it if the geometry is right and your computers are setup for it. Jobbo_Fett posted:(millions captured) I'm almost afraid to ask, but what happened to all the Russian POWs that were captured during the advances of '41? Presumably nearly all of them were shipped to rear areas and worked to death? Are there any instances say during the winter counter offensives of advancing Russians suddenly liberating a bunch of captured dudes?
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Aug 31, 2016 19:00
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Phanatic posted:Underwater sound is complicated as hell. A sound wave traveling from one region to another where the speed of sound differs is going to partially reflect (like an impedance mismatch in a transmission line) or refract, and the speed of sound in water varies with not only temperature and pressure but with salinity. As a result, sound doesn't travel in straight lines underwater, it follows curving paths. So just as one example, if you're A and trying to hear B there are conditions where you will be able to hear B better if you get *further away from him*, rather than closer, because getting further away might put you into a region where the sounds emitted by B curve and reconverge at your location rather than in a region where they've scattered away from you. There are conditions where if you change depth by a small amount you might put yourself on the above or below a region where water temperature changes rapidly from cool to warm, or vice versa, and that temperature gradient will act like a reflecting wall, possibly bouncing sounds away rather than letting them penetrate, or possibly creating a channel that acts almost like a waveguide for particular frequencies, letting them propagate further than they ordinarily would. A submarine is going to try to put itself at a depth that optimizes its ability to look for the target, and minimize the ability of hostiles to hear it. There are a shitload of factors influencing what depth a submarine would operate at, and a number of them are probably classified (like maximum operating depth is). If you're interested, this is pretty much the definitive text: Minor technical nitpicking here-- the speed of sound through water is dependent on density, which is a function of temperature, pressure (=depth), and salinity. A good example of how important oceanographic conditions can be for sonar is the SOFAR channel, which acts like a waveguide and I'm guessing is probably not a depth you want to hang out at as a submarine since any sound you make will travel much further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel edit: in retrospect I should've gone into physical oceanography, the Navy drops mad bucks on sonar-related research Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 19:03
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PittTheElder posted:I'm almost afraid to ask, but what happened to all the Russian POWs that were captured during the advances of '41? Presumably nearly all of them were shipped to rear areas and worked to death? Are there any instances say during the winter counter offensives of advancing Russians suddenly liberating a bunch of captured dudes? Marched to whatever location(s) the Wehrmacht set up as prisoner camps and then slightly starve them because they don't have enough food for frontline units, much less captured Soviets. Some Soviets, whether you want to call them traitors, opportunists, or otherwise, join the ranks of the Germans and are shipped back to the front to fight, some do anti-partisan duty. Others do manual labour, escape to become partisans, die on the way, or are simply executed by SS men.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:09
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PittTheElder posted:To be technical about it, I don't think it actually says that, what it says is "THERE IS A BOAT THIS WAY". The 'target' of an active sonar pulse can't know the emission time of the pulse, and so wouldn't be able to compute the range directly. Though with a modern boat and long-rear end towed sonar arrays, you might be able to range it if the geometry is right and your computers are setup for it. They were starved in camps around the Western SSRs and Poland/Germany, some of them became Hiwis, and some of those Hiwis just stole poo poo and became partisans, who then starved in the Western SSRs.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:09
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Basically they'd be fed enough to do slave labor when the Nazis were short on labor and starve to death when the Nazis were short on food, and it would switch between these two modes pretty often because the Nazis weren't very good at accurately predicting their future needs.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:20
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PittTheElder posted:I'm almost afraid to ask, but what happened to all the Russian POWs that were captured during the advances of '41? Presumably nearly all of them were shipped to rear areas and worked to death? Are there any instances say during the winter counter offensives of advancing Russians suddenly liberating a bunch of captured dudes? They were kept in the immediate area mostly, meaning marched off to proper open places where they could be kept. There wasn't any planning like in France concerning the supply of these masses that they knew they would capture. Like, no field kitchens, barracks, food or whatever. Nearly all of these camps were just open spots with barbed wire and mg posts around. They were kept in the open, no barracks of anything. Only when Typhoon failed were they envisioned as forced labour, in November/December the spreading sickness from the camps began affecting troops in the transportation hubs, which was one of the main factors that the OKH lobbied for better conditions of POWS. By February, only very few were left that were initially captured in summer. While they starved to death, the SD sorted through the people. Jews, functionaries and intellectuals were shot. Ukrainians and baltic nationals were recruited as Hiwis. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 19:22
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PittTheElder posted:To be technical about it, I don't think it actually says that, what it says is "THERE IS A BOAT THIS WAY". The 'target' of an active sonar pulse can't know the emission time of the pulse, and so wouldn't be able to compute the range directly. Though with a modern boat and long-rear end towed sonar arrays, you might be able to range it if the geometry is right and your computers are setup for it. Well, it says "THERE IS A BOAT ON BEARING X" which is fairly precise even if you don't know the distance.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:28
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Marched to whatever location(s) the Wehrmacht set up as prisoner camps and then slightly starve them because they don't have enough food for frontline units, much less captured Soviets. And if any of them survive this, they have a lovely time due to Stalin's paranoia after the war. A really. really lovely time.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:30
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Nebakenezzer posted:I don't have anywhere else to say this but here goes: Sure about that? Aurelian was named 'Restitutor Orbis' for 'Restorer of the World'. Also, I learned today that Orleans (and by extension New Orleans) was named for Aurelian.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:37
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Jobbo_Fett posted:So I'm reading Robert Kirchubel's "Atlas of the Eastern Front" and, obviously, Typhoon has a nice description + series of maps for it. Re: Kluge, the impression I get is he never really believed that strongly in mobile warfare to begin with and was always dragging his feet about offensive operations. That's kind of simultaneously a virtue and a vice in a theatre where huge offensives that penetrate deep, quickly are (a) necessary for decisive victory and (b) the root cause of most of your logistics issues that will eventually cause you to lose. Re: closest units: I think you're right, and all of those units you mention in early November when Typhoon stalled out were deployed largely to fight at Volkokolamsk Highway (subject of a book), except 1. Pz which is fighting in Kalninin. What happens is 4th Panzer group is able to stage a counteroffensive on around the 16th of November after Stalin initiated an offensive on the 15th, and push down the highway a way so as to close in on the western approach to Moscow. When Kluge makes his push in mid November as part of the new winter offensives he barely closes much distance, but i think he was up against tougher defenses. That's what's happening to the Northwest here:   And this is what winds up happening:  Although I thnk all of these maps are at least moderately inaccurate. Note: also shows 4th Panzer group being changed to 4th Panzer army on Jan 1st because Guderian made that cool. The numerical situation you described at the start of Typhoon sounds the same as what I read, except I think there may be an attempt there to make the Germans sound like they have more indirect fire weapons (by bracketing mortars and guns) which I think is inaccurate. From my recollection, I think that's the one area where the Russians always have more equipment right the way through. There is definitively local numerical superiority in the theatre though, heightened by the fact that of the 1.2 million Soviets deployed against the 2 million or so Germans, the Germans capture or kill 1 million of the Soviets in the pockets they make and collapse at Viazma and Briansk. But they take so long to destroy that it just buys a ton of time for the USSR to replace them, and in the meantime Zhukov has come in and started to organise the defense. And in the case of Hoepner's units that do close on the Northwestern approach, we're talking about Panzer divisions with some companies of 10 men from a starting 150 in the end. Also re: Guderian going first in Typhoon - he gets to monopolise air cover for the few days he's advancing alone, which was, I think, why he wanted to do ti.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:48
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Disinterested posted:
Yeah, its a cop-out to include mortars but you could also take "indirect fire weapons" as including mortars as well.  As for Von Kluge RE:Typhoon, the consensus that Kirchubel reaches is that he waited too long and attacked the Russian defenses in depth (which they built thanks to him taking so long).  Taken directly from the book, apologies on the quality.
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Aug 31, 2016 20:01
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feedmegin posted:I'm pretty sure that's not true. You don't generally see double-d's in Latin ( Well, I'm getting this from a book I'm reading, which translates redditor lvcis aeternae as "The restorer of eternal light".
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Aug 31, 2016 20:27
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Yeah, its a cop-out to include mortars but you could also take "indirect fire weapons" as including mortars as well. Well the numbers thing is historiographically significant because Soviet/Russian historians have, ironically, often blamed their huge losses in 41 on being outnumbered. Yep, here we go, apparently the Germans had no more than 3,000 guns for Typhoon; the number you have is apparently just trumped up to further support the narrative of numerical supremacy (which is accurate re: manpower, tanks on Nov. 1).
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Aug 31, 2016 20:53
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Elyv posted:It makes sense to me that a random knight wouldn't have armor that fits perfectly Why wouldn't he? Mail is one of the most easily adjusted & repaired armours out there.
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Aug 31, 2016 20:59
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Why wouldn't he? Mail is one of the most easily adjusted & repaired armours out there. Because I know very little about the medieval period and I assumed it would be expensive based on the context of the discussion v  v
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Aug 31, 2016 21:04
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