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Every time I go back to Civ V now I'm reminded of how much I hate the diplomacy of spying. I got caught spying? Computer tells me off and I get a diplomatic penalty. I catch someone else spying on me? If I tell the computer off I get a diplomatic penalty.
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Sep 1, 2016 00:33
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Espionage in Civ 5 is horribly unfun and probably the least engaging mechanic in the entire game and I'd rather they just left it out of Civ 6 for good. Granted I don't play on Diety so maybe there's some higher level strategy involving spies(I don't think there is), but on Emperor I usually just set one spy to counterespionage in my capital, and the rest to rig elections in city states I want to stay friendly with and then don't touch them for the rest of the game. At least 4 forced you to dedicate a part of your economy to espionage production and had some vaguely interesting or useful things to do with it. gently caress me what a badly designed game mechanic.
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Sep 1, 2016 02:28
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DarthJeebus posted:Espionage in Civ 5 is horribly unfun and probably the least engaging mechanic in the entire game and I'd rather they just left it out of Civ 6 for good. Granted I don't play on Diety so maybe there's some higher level strategy involving spies(I don't think there is), but on Emperor I usually just set one spy to counterespionage in my capital, and the rest to rig elections in city states I want to stay friendly with and then don't touch them for the rest of the game. At least 4 forced you to dedicate a part of your economy to espionage production and had some vaguely interesting or useful things to do with it. gently caress me what a badly designed game mechanic. Even on King I find it worth it to put the first spy in other capitals to steal some techs and catch up. Otherwise I just do what you do until I get the tech that gives me extra delegates for diplomats.
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Sep 1, 2016 02:32
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DarthJeebus posted:Espionage in Civ 5 is horribly unfun and probably the least engaging mechanic in the entire game and I'd rather they just left it out of Civ 6 for good. Granted I don't play on Diety so maybe there's some higher level strategy involving spies(I don't think there is), but on Emperor I usually just set one spy to counterespionage in my capital, and the rest to rig elections in city states I want to stay friendly with and then don't touch them for the rest of the game. At least 4 forced you to dedicate a part of your economy to espionage production and had some vaguely interesting or useful things to do with it. gently caress me what a badly designed game mechanic. Actually it is extremely cool, and good.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:40
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Edit: Never mind, didn't mean to derail
Kibbles n Shits fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 04:16
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Gabriel Pope posted:Actually it is extremely cool, and good. Beyond Earth did espionage much better.
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Sep 1, 2016 05:13
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Espionage is, was, and ever shall be horrible in all strategy games. Even Soren and Shafer have both admitted they think it's a fundamentally unworkable mechanic.
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Sep 1, 2016 07:13
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Cythereal posted:Beyond Earth did espionage much better. It was better in concept maybe. In execution it was really bad. Maybe even worse. gently caress intrigue levels forever.
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Sep 1, 2016 07:38
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The problem with Espionage is that any implementation that actually lets you do the cool stuff the term implies is probably going to also be incredibly unfun when used against you and arbitrarily luck-based. Everyone is fine with the idea of sending spies out to sabotage their neighbor and ruin their poo poo right up to the point where it dawns on them that they can also be the victims of such tomfoolery. The best solution is actually what Civ 5 did in that you don't really hurt other players with espionage, you simply improve your own situation via gathering important information and by tech stealing. Yes there's couping city states but that's more of an indirect means of inflicting harm. Of course despite the solution being workable, it now suffers from the problem of being entirely passive and without much in the way of player agency. You don't get to do any cool underhanded spy stuff, you just set up a task and hopefully benefit from it 20 turns down the line.
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Sep 1, 2016 10:01
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Every time you send out a spy the game should boot Sid Meier's Covert Action.  Slightly more serious proposal, how about spies being available only as great persons?
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Sep 1, 2016 10:53
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Or maybe CiV's system as a base, with Great Spies being an occasional treat that can do all the invasive poo poo?
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Sep 1, 2016 10:58
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There seems to be a "Great Work Heist" spy mission, so espionage in Civ VI is going to be of the loving-each-other variety.
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Sep 1, 2016 12:46
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Is that true, there is art theft? If so, I hope it will be a just cause for war. I wonder if the use of nukes are seperate from the new casus belli thing. Or if it's like before where war simply means war, even if I fling a couple of dozen nukes around.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:06
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I hope Carmen Sandiego is a great person and she can steal wonders.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:36
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MANIFEST DESTINY posted:I hope Carmen Sandiego is a great person and she can steal wonders. From any age, and you have to build a temporal detective agency to discover her and stop her in the appropriate age.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:58
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Rexides posted:There seems to be a "Great Work Heist" spy mission, so espionage in Civ VI is going to be of the loving-each-other variety. "Hey guys, come to our museum to check out our Mona Lisa! It's attracting all kinds of tourism!" "Wait, didn't Morocco used to have the Mona Lisa? What happened to it?"I'm just saying, stealing something and then putting it on public display might not be the best idea. Though I guess they could give you the option to run a private auction -- convert another civ's great work into a lump sum of cash.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:25
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:
Point 1: The Elgin Marbles. Point 2: Time to pray like hell for a mod that will essentially create an entire criminal underworld to interact with. 
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Sep 1, 2016 15:34
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John F Bennett posted:Is that true, there is art theft? If so, I hope it will be a just cause for war. Well maybe the other AIs would hate you, but you would have their capitals, so who cares what they think!
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Sep 1, 2016 15:36
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Petra wonder movie. Curious placement. That's a(n accessibly) full standard bonus Holy Site in there too, though. That's like, a base yield of 13 Faith with the buildings, I think? Would be even more ridiculous if one of those mountains was Everest.
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Sep 1, 2016 16:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:
That happened all the time in the days of western imperialism. Paris, London and New York even have huge obelisks taken from ancient temples in Egypt and re-erected in city plazas.  vv Ah, yeah. I suppose you're right. I forgot that was a thing you could do. Hardcordion fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 16:31
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Hardcordion posted:That happened all the time in the days of western imperialism. Paris, London and New York even have huge obelisks taken from ancient temples in Egypt and re-erected in city plazas. This is more comparable to moving works of art from conquered cities to the capital than actually stealing them.
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Sep 1, 2016 16:46
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You have achieved victory through the awesome power of your culture. Your civilization's greatness - the magnificence of its monuments, the power of its artists, the stickiness of its spies' fingers - have astounded the world! Poets will honour you for as long as beauty brings gladness to a weary heart.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:18
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Um if you're not building (or stealing) this you're playing Civ wrong.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:34
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Have they said anything about the effects of the cassus belli system in multiplayer? Like it doesn't matter much who or when I war against in multiplayer, unless there's some sort of ingame effects since obviously players dont use a diplomacy system.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:35
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Banana Man posted:Have they said anything about the effects of the cassus belli system in multiplayer? Like it doesn't matter much who or when I war against in multiplayer, unless there's some sort of ingame effects since obviously players dont use a diplomacy system. I could see the whole casus belli thing interact with the war weariness system for MP games. Starting an unjustified war giving the attacker more weariness faster, while the defender gets less, that sort of thing.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:39
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Banana Man posted:Have they said anything about the effects of the cassus belli system in multiplayer? Like it doesn't matter much who or when I war against in multiplayer, unless there's some sort of ingame effects since obviously players dont use a diplomacy system. I would think it's SP only. In MP, players have they're own cassus belli system ("ur a dick" "no u")
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Sep 1, 2016 17:40
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I would think it's SP only. In MP, players have they're own cassus belli system ("ur a dick" "no u") "lol" *declares war*
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Sep 1, 2016 17:55
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Casus Belli: I would like to win please
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Sep 1, 2016 17:58
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Gabriel Pope posted:Casus Belli: I would like to win please "Please"? Looks like someone's angling for a diplomatic victory
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Sep 1, 2016 18:03
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:"Please"? Looks like someone's angling for a diplomatic victory Psyops. Politeness gets under people's skin better than telling them to choke to death on a flaming bag of dicks on top of Cock Mountain.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:13
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I'd be on the happy side just having spies give me more information and not even having to do anything else. So many times I've just wanted to know troop positions and numbers. I'm sure the average player would like more that that, but it'd make me happy. I did like how spy missions were handled in BE, but I wasent able to force myself to play long enough to truly test it.
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Sep 1, 2016 23:47
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The Human Crouton posted:I'd be on the happy side just having spies give me more information and not even having to do anything else. So many times I've just wanted to know troop positions and numbers. I'm sure the average player would like more that that, but it'd make me happy. They were ok. There are some real neat things you can do but most of them are functionally impossible to do unless you are ARC. Ultimately, they end up being the same level of annoying bookkeeping to me that trade routes were before they just kept going forever. The option to just keep reassigning a spy the same task until a level of intrigue opened in the city they were in would have done a lot to make the system better, to me anyway.
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Sep 2, 2016 04:09
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The Human Crouton posted:I'd be on the happy side just having spies give me more information and not even having to do anything else. So many times I've just wanted to know troop positions and numbers. I'm sure the average player would like more that that, but it'd make me happy. It might be cool to have spies just unlock the demographics for a civ. So by default you just have to guess at how advanced or numerous a civ is by looking at their units and cities, but if you stick a spy in there you can see how many techs they have, how large an army they have and so on.
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Sep 2, 2016 07:52
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Failboattootoot posted:They were ok. There are some real neat things you can do but most of them are functionally impossible to do unless you are ARC. Ultimately, they end up being the same level of annoying bookkeeping to me that trade routes were before they just kept going forever. The option to just keep reassigning a spy the same task until a level of intrigue opened in the city they were in would have done a lot to make the system better, to me anyway. I've played about 300 hours of BE/BERT and 400 hours of Civ V G&K/BNW and I think the spying in BE is better just because it is faster and you're more likely to get a decent result. It takes about 10 turns or so by default to get a result (either energy or science) rather than the 25 turns it seems to take a Civ V spy to probably get killed taking their first tech. Honestly, you never even want to do a higher intrigue operation (except possibly recruit defectors). I did a city coup in BE once (as Brasillia) and by that point I'd already taken over most of the world. If spies could just take science or gold in Civ V like they could in BE, they'd be so much better and be worth defending against more.
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Sep 2, 2016 12:06
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Stabbatical posted:I've played about 300 hours of BE/BERT and 400 hours of Civ V G&K/BNW and I think the spying in BE is better just because it is faster and you're more likely to get a decent result. It takes about 10 turns or so by default to get a result (either energy or science) rather than the 25 turns it seems to take a Civ V spy to probably get killed taking their first tech. Honestly, you never even want to do a higher intrigue operation (except possibly recruit defectors). I did a city coup in BE once (as Brasillia) and by that point I'd already taken over most of the world. If spies could just take science or gold in Civ V like they could in BE, they'd be so much better and be worth defending against more. I seem to recall BE spying being horribly balanced (shocking, I know). Like taking over a city was a level 4 ability, while putting various kinds of affinity-specific bomb in it was level 5, which meant you never did any bombings.
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Sep 2, 2016 12:51
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Gort posted:It might be cool to have spies just unlock the demographics for a civ. So by default you just have to guess at how advanced or numerous a civ is by looking at their units and cities, but if you stick a spy in there you can see how many techs they have, how large an army they have and so on. I've mentioned it before but one my biggest pet peeves about Civ 5 is how transparent it is - I can see the inner workings of another Civ far too easily without any spying at all! I can see their treasury, income and resources (although granted this is somewhat necessary for doing deals), unit promotions (if at war), and their place in the demographics. I can even infer buildings in cities by their tile yields, and wonder construction by their models on the map (even if the city has been in fog forever!). Cities even poke through the fog when founded (which Civ 4 did not do). If only this were all hidden, espionage could play the role of revealing it Civ by Civ. I would be entirely happy with espionage being a passive affair, much like it was in Civ 5 - maybe assign your spies, sure, but after that you accumulate info and steal poo poo and do a bit of damage depending on what you've assigned them to (or prevent/slow other players doing the same, if assigned to counter-espionage). Without actually having to look around and press a "Do thing" button every dozen turns, which is what bothered me about Civ 4's spy system. I like the way the CBP mod handles it in Civ5 - spies will act, but not on direction - they will passively steal science and gold, sabotage food and production, so espionage becomes a rather generalised "gently caress poo poo up" tool to direct at opponents. It would be quite fun if you could assign your spy to an unit and see where it is on the map, where it's going and what promotions it has. Bit of a waste of a spy when units are so numerous, but if spies were more like a fluid quantity you could divvy up between targets it would be more practical.
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Sep 2, 2016 14:13
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I've mentioned it before but one my biggest pet peeves about Civ 5 is how transparent it is - I can see the inner workings of another Civ far too easily without any spying at all! Just think, the most popular mod is info addict, which lets you see a lot more detailed information.
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Sep 2, 2016 14:57
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I personally can't play without Info Addict. I really like charts and data.
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Sep 2, 2016 14:59
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Just think, the most popular mod is info addict, which lets you see a lot more detailed information. I think for the most part, InfoAddict just presents existing data in a better way, collating it into a more presentable form (though I seem to recall there is something about the demographics that was previously hidden in Civ's UI). I've no problem with mods that make accessible data more accessible, in fact I'm a huge fanboy for that - I love InfoAddict. I take issue with the data being accessible at all.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:21
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People always say that about infoaddict, but it legitimately does present stuff to you that you wouldn't see otherwise. E: It sounds like what you're looking for is going to be in civ vi though. Even wars are something you have to hear through the grapevine
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Sep 2, 2016 15:27
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