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Ensign Expendable posted:The USSR used the 107 mm caliber in infantry (4.2 inches) since they inherited it from the Tsarists. Until the D-10, 100 mm was a navy caliber. Yeah, and as far as I know that's comparatively widespread use of 100mm. The Japanese 10cm gun was a naval AA piece that started production in 1940 (good gun incidentally), the French and Italians started using 100mm guns around 1930 it seems and were probably one of the main users as well, but I don't know of any major land use of 100mm caliber guns rather than 105s.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:16
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I'm really used to the whole neonazi "Sure the holocaust was bad but what about the nukes? checkmate atheists" kind of degenerate arguments so I do find the "the allies were also bad" defence kind of uniquely annoying, so if I misread you then I apologise.KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:War is fundamentally a business of doing bad poo poo to other people. Nothing you are saying refutes the idea that a "Clean Luftwaffe" existed - the fundamental point of the "clean X" theory is that relative to other forces the force in question is not appreciably worse. "The other guys were doing it too" is the whole point. "Clean" in the context of "Clean Wehrmacht" or "Clean Luftwaffe" is a relative term based on the concept that they did not actively commit atrocities in the way that the SS did. Sure, they did things that were awful, and violated the rules of war, but no more so than their opponents. The "Clean Wehrmacht" is pretty much conclusively bullshit; the "Clean Luftwaffe" argument seems to have some degree of merit. I'm not saying that the Luftwaffe was some Paragon of Teutonic Knightly Virtue (sup Hermann), just that it was an armed service that behaved much like any other - unlike the SS, significant parts of the Wehrmacht, the IJA, the NKVD, etc. I guess this is kind of an emphasis problem because I would far prefer we also condemned any allies who strafed civilians. Or maybe I'm misreading again and the point is that we condemn both but call them both clean, in which case that sounds weird and not like how I usually hear the term but I'll go with it. spectralent fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 18:17
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spectralent posted:I'm really used to the whole neonazi "Sure the holocaust was bad but what about the nukes? checkmate atheists" kind of degenerate arguments so I do find the "the allies were also bad" defence kind of uniquely annoying, so if I misread you then I apologise. Yeah, no, this is not a "The allies were also bad" defense, it's a "wow the Luftwaffe was surprisingly less lovely than the other branches of the Nazi armed forces" Plus, Adolf Galland was cool.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:18
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HEY GAL posted:"gently caress nazis" is the proper response, tho? It is however really important to say gently caress nazis because of what they did do rather than what they didn't (uniquely).
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Sep 2, 2016 18:19
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Polyakov posted:It is however really important to say gently caress nazis because of what they did do rather than what they didn't (uniquely). strafing civilians for sport is wrong whether we're doing it or not
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Sep 2, 2016 18:20
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On another topic: Was everyone's whitewash basically the same stuff, or did you have some people using like, I dunno, chalk paste and some guys using alcohol-washable paint or something?
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Sep 2, 2016 18:21
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feedmegin posted:That's not entirely true (assuming we're talking about Arab/Israeli issues in general). There was an Arab revolt in the 30s in Palestine, and Jews largely backed the British government against them. Check out Was referring to North Africa in particular.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:22
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spectralent posted:I'm really used to the whole neonazi "Sure the holocaust was bad but what about the nukes? checkmate atheists" kind of degenerate arguments so I do find the "the allies were also bad" defence kind of uniquely annoying, so if I misread you then I apologise. It's one thing to advance that argument, and another to dismiss the legitimate point people fighting wars occasionally commit warcrimes no matter the side they're on. It is indisputable that everyone involved in ww2 did some shady poo poo, that is the nature of warfare. The Luftwaffe as an organisation committed warcrimes - the issue is whether or not they committed warcrimes to the same degree and manner as the Wehrmacht and the SS, because if it was (sadly for humanity) your run of the mill average shady poo poo, shooting up civilian columns, bombing civilian areas, etc etc then they can be said to be "clean" because they are "clean" in the same way all armed forces are "clean".
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Sep 2, 2016 18:24
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Cologne and Tokyo. Lots of dirty poo poo gets done in War.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:25
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bewbies posted:I'm a little hesitant to respond as it seems like you kind of have some sort of axe to grind here, but just to be clear, I offered this in terms of comparison to the rest of the Werhmacht and to the Allied air forces. No one is suggesting they didn't do loads of repugnant stuff (or at least I'm not). The comparison to the allied airforces just falls flat on its face. Three years before Dresden, the Germans had already launched a campaign of targeting culturally significant British cities, specifically for their cultural value. The fact that the Germans carpet bombed fewer cities out of existence does not absolve them, because that was not caused by superior ethics but by weaker resources. Had the Germans possessed something like the 8th Air Force, they would have quite happily leveled British cities. A serial killer caught after two victims is not morally less bad than one caught after ten.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Yeah, no, this is not a "The allies were also bad" defense, it's a "wow the Luftwaffe was surprisingly less lovely than the other branches of the Nazi armed forces" Adolf Galland was the only pilot to ever have a humidor installed in his cockpit so that he could smoke a cigar while flying. I've been wanting to post that in the cool facts thread for months (  )
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Sep 2, 2016 18:27
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spectralent posted:I guess this is kind of an emphasis problem because I would far prefer we also condemned any allies who strafed civilians. Or maybe I'm misreading again and the point is that we condemn both but call them both clean, in which case that sounds weird and not like how I usually hear the term but I'll go with it. Both committed your run-of-the-mill bad warcrimes. I agree "clean" is a bad term that doesn't quite get to the hear of the issue, but it's what's in the discourse so we run with it, I guess. I think it's good to condemn any war crimes, but really at some level all war is just legalized criminal behavior in state interests so like - what is a war crime really? makes u think 
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Sep 2, 2016 18:28
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Plus when you think 'Nazi war crimes' it's not just shooting/bombing civilians it's deliberate genocide of millions of people
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Sep 2, 2016 18:29
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ArchangeI posted:The comparison to the allied airforces just falls flat on its face. Three years before Dresden, the Germans had already launched a campaign of targeting culturally significant British cities, specifically for their cultural value. The fact that the Germans carpet bombed fewer cities out of existence does not absolve them, because that was not caused by superior ethics but by weaker resources. Had the Germans possessed something like the 8th Air Force, they would have quite happily leveled British cities. A serial killer caught after two victims is not morally less bad than one caught after ten. This is getting in to a really dumb argument (edit: that I think you're mistakenly trying to make) but the Area Bombing Directive dated from early 1942.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:30
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HEY GAL posted:nah Ill rephrase it, it is important to recognise that both sides did horrible things in war, some of which were not unique to the nazis, its important not to only say the nazis were bad and did bad things but to acknowledge the fact that we also did some of the same acts. Its unhelpful to list off nazi atrocities in a vacuum without considering other sides who committed the same acts. An act isnt uniquely worse because the Nazis did it. E: clarified language.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:30
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I'd say it's important to remember all of it, and where appropriate remember every nation's warcrimes. Helps us remember that war in general, and the world wars in particular, were terrible, terrible things. All the fun tanks and the cool planes and the strategising and the what ifs and all of it comes down to the fact that, as Sherman said, War is Hell.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:34
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lenoon posted:I'd say it's important to remember all of it, and where appropriate remember every nation's warcrimes. Helps us remember that war in general, and the world wars in particular, were terrible, terrible things. All the fun tanks and the cool planes and the strategising and the what ifs and all of it comes down to the fact that, as Sherman said, War is Hell. On this note if you want to experience war as a clean, strategic abstract with no greater consequences, then steam's got a paradox interactive weekend so you can finally get your crusader kings portrait DLC (or whatever) for 75% off. HOI IV is only on 10% though 
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Sep 2, 2016 18:39
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Is HOI 4 any good? It looks bad. I still only play DH and basically only Kaiserreich.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:40
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Is HOI 4 any good? It looks bad. I have absolutely no idea. I've had hours of fun in III, though I don't think I ever quite got the hang of amphibious landings. I'm hoping 4 is a tidied-up 3, anyone got any comment?
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Sep 2, 2016 18:42
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spectralent posted:I have absolutely no idea. I've had hours of fun in III, though I don't think I ever quite got the hang of amphibious landings. I'm hoping 4 is a tidied-up 3, anyone got any comment? Its a hell of a lot easier to play than 3 and is significantly streamlined (its a lot less complex in many ways), the AI is still dumb as a box of rocks and is REALLY bad at the air and sea layers, and as a result its really easy, the only time i felt threatened was doing historical timeline France and having to fight the Germans in 1939. I still really enjoyed it and they have given it a good hard patching since i played it last so it may well have improved, but i still reccomend it based on my experience.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:45
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spectralent posted:On this note if you want to experience war as a clean, strategic abstract with no greater consequences, then steam's got a paradox interactive weekend so you can finally get your crusader kings portrait DLC (or whatever) for 75% off. HoI III is better at the moment (because of mods) KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Is HOI 4 any good? It looks bad. HoI 4 can be fun, but I think it needs some more time to fully develop. The commanders are cool, but I kinda preferred the HoI3 method. I'd love having a little faster production but that's just me. The naval combat seems to be completely different, for the better. The big takeaway is that decisions/events in HoI 3 and much better in HoI 4. There are some issues with the system, but it makes games a lot more unique and forces you to make decisions on support one plan over another, or one arm of your forces over the other. The automation AI for combat is a little rough, not sure if they've patched it much yet. Sometimes it'll decide the smartest thing to do is have a 1-province wide penetration deep into enemy territory. It doesn't always work out.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Is HOI 4 any good? It looks bad. It's good in some regards, same as the rest. It's got a fantastic system for materiel production and management, the logistics system is okayish but thankfully the non-fiddly kind of okayish, and the map is the vastly better hoi 3 level of granularity. Naval combat is closer to decent but it's still kind of hands off. The air stuff really could go for exposing more information. I've put way too many hours into it and enjoyed it. It's pretty much tidied up 3. No more battle visio managing your entire personnel flowchart.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:48
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Is HOI 4 any good? It looks bad. HOI4 is at least as good as DH, it does need some AI fixes tho. Also Kaiserreich is in development for it and the mechanics of 4 should be a lot better fit
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Sep 2, 2016 18:50
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Jobbo_Fett posted:HoI III is better at the moment (because of mods) The Paradox DLC mods or mod-mods? Because I've somehow never really used any of the latter so if it's primarily those I'd be missing I should be good.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:51
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Also, for tactical level stuff based on WW2 and without having to worry about massacring civilians (for the most part) or killing prisoners (sometimes) you should totally get Advanced Squad Leader. I mean, just look at this AAR in progress! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=463776904 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=463779236 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=463810846
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Sep 2, 2016 18:54
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spectralent posted:The Paradox DLC mods or mod-mods? Because I've somehow never really used any of the latter so if it's primarily those I'd be missing I should be good. Uh... I don't call DLCs mods so  Black Ice is a really good mod for HoI3 I find. I think another one was the Reality Project (or something?) and there was a random map/nation generator which was super cool. It made HoI3 akin to Advance Tactics Gold, but with a better UI.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:56
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Also, for tactical level stuff based on WW2 and without having to worry about massacring civilians (for the most part) or killing prisoners (sometimes) you should totally get Advanced Squad Leader. Wasn't there an official scenario for the Warsaw Ghetto uprising cause uhhh
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Sep 2, 2016 18:57
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Uh... I don't call DLCs mods so Fair  Had to check.The idea of a mod that creates random nations and maps appeals to my inner alternative history grog very hard, so I may have to investigate. EDIT: Anyone got a view on EUIV/VicII? Asking for a friend (the friend is me). spectralent fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 18:59
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StashAugustine posted:Wasn't there an official scenario for the Warsaw Ghetto uprising cause uhhh I'm fairly certain that there is, yeah.  I don't think there's any civilians in it though, but I've never played the scenario.
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Sep 2, 2016 19:02
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spectralent posted:Fair Vic 2 causes physical pain, but can be worth it for things like recruiting all the soldiers in the south and putting them in a mountain area to starve so the civil war is easier. (I've played multiple games and still don't really know how it works). EUIV can be cool but I never got into it.
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Sep 2, 2016 19:05
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EU4 is the best paradox game and has all the pikes and Napoleonic warfare you'll need
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Sep 2, 2016 19:11
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StashAugustine posted:EU4 is the best paradox game and has all the pikes and Napoleonic warfare you'll need
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Sep 2, 2016 19:13
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Oh holy poo poo, HOI 4 lets you actually pick the advance route. The amount of times I'd say "Hey go claim this port" and then everyone would promptly land on the wrong island or whatever was maddening. Did give me the hilarious outcome one time where I set my guys the objective of capturing some lovely port in France and they decided to make a landing in the major port I'd intended to capture later as their beachhead to capture it 
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Sep 2, 2016 19:21
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Also if you decide to get into it, anywhere that gives victory points gives a bit of supply so rather than landing in the giant port and slugging it out with a corps in a fort, you can land nearby, take a point to let you get supply so your guys don't just run out of organization and then surround the port so their guys can't retreat and whittle them down.
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Sep 2, 2016 19:41
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Anyone got the name of the HoI III random map/nation generator? That sounds extremely my jam. Is it just "Random Scenario"?
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Sep 2, 2016 19:44
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StashAugustine posted:EU4 is the best paradox game and has all the pikes and Napoleonic warfare you'll need Operational warfare too abstract...
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Sep 2, 2016 19:53
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Ensign Expendable posted:The USSR used the 107 mm caliber in infantry (4.2 inches) since they inherited it from the Tsarists. Until the D-10, 100 mm was a navy caliber. And Mosins were three line rifles ie. 3/10 of an inch caliber.
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Sep 2, 2016 20:00
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spectralent posted:Anyone got the name of the HoI III random map/nation generator? That sounds extremely my jam. Is it just "Random Scenario"? http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Random_Scenario http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?525-Random-Scenario-and-Map-Generator
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Sep 2, 2016 20:03
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Adolf Galland was the only pilot to ever have a humidor installed in his cockpit so that he could smoke a cigar while flying. Also a cigar lighter.
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Sep 2, 2016 20:09
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Hogge Wild posted:Also a cigar lighter. I think "The German Aces Speak" has a passage in it where he says he prefers matches for his cigars. I'd have to double check sometime.
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Sep 2, 2016 20:28
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