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As a thought exercise, could you not introduce the exact same uncertainty factor with, say, throwing dice into a cup?
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Sep 2, 2016 21:13
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The problem I have with guessing a range is that I am not the soldier on the field. My skill should not reflect upon him in that manner. He should decide if it's in range or not, and that's better represented with other things (e.g., random dice rolls modified by skill level).
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Sep 2, 2016 21:44
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My main reason for preferring premeasures is that it removes a lot of bullshit discussions. We're all good friends at the club, but many of us (myself included) can become a bit grumpy when fortune turns against us. For example, if you roll for a move to get into close combat, and roll something very close to being barely enough, then even the staunchest of player can start fudge the move. Maybe butting a wall a tiny bit to the side, maybe a friendly shove of a base, or a crooked measuring tool. The ways that this can happen are so many, but if you both measure first, agree "I need a seven to reach right?" "yeah, looks so", then roll, you can get around that. That said, we don't premeasure all the time. Usually, we give orders about the general direction our squad is moving, and then roll the dice and move the unit in the given direction. But we allow ourselves to measure distances before doing that, and I personally feel that it cuts out a few arguments now and then.
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Sep 2, 2016 21:59
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Honestly the amount of hidden info in infinity is what turns me off the game because it makes it extremely awkward to play as you have to remember what all your camo/TO/etc. markers actually are without tipping off your opponent, not to mention things like hidden deployment.
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Sep 2, 2016 22:15
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Colonial Air Force posted:The problem I have with guessing a range is that I am not the soldier on the field. My skill should not reflect upon him in that manner. He should decide if it's in range or not, and that's better represented with other things (e.g., random dice rolls modified by skill level). Yeah this is one of my problems with it. Whether or not an artillery barrage accidentally splats on your tank is probably not the CO's fault.
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Sep 2, 2016 22:16
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Guessing also comes across as a very dissociated skill. When you play these games, you assume the role of a commander or director. You "tell" your men what to do, and their actions are resolved and determined by dice rolls or card flips based on their quality as represented in the rules. Guessing inserts the player into a very specific role, forcing a player to do something his figure should be doing. It's also a skill that's really not that hard to pick up. Anybody can leave a ruler on the table and use that to gauge distance, or know that the table is 4' across and the mortar hasn't moved since deploying X inches and is shooting someone who's moved Y inches from the edge and etc, etc. My point is that the "tricks" count on it being a game with figures and not an actual representation of anything. But everything else is a direct representation of in-game factors, even abstractions like command dice or activation cards. And even then, would it ever make sense to apply real life player skills to their in-game characters? Veterans have grenade, bayonet, and rifle training but that doesn't entitle their infantry men to perform better. Why should we accept limiting the represented artillery's abilities to their players' spacial awareness? E: totally beaten...
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Sep 2, 2016 22:22
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It also depends on the game, I think. Like, if movement is a set amount of inches, then pre-measuring can end up with ridiculous situations, like you being able to place a unit exactly 1/12th an inch outside range of a counter-charge, or similar nonsense. But if moment is to some degree randomized, it's much less of an issue.
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Sep 2, 2016 22:25
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Who doesn't remember how Napoleon lost at Waterloo because he advanced the Old Guard five yards short of effective musket range by mistake?
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Sep 2, 2016 22:31
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Using Infinity as an example of good game design is doomed to failure TBH. Way too much chaff in that ruleset and using single D20 opposed rolls for everything is the best way to ensure players can get dicefucked by every FLGS's stock.feedmegin posted:That's kind of lovely given the Challenger I predated the M1 (and was the first tank in the world with composite armour) Force on Force does that and it works pretty well. VVVV Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Sep 3, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 23:59
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lilljonas posted:It also depends on the game, I think. Like, if movement is a set amount of inches, then pre-measuring can end up with ridiculous situations, like you being able to place a unit exactly 1/12th an inch outside range of a counter-charge, or similar nonsense. But if moment is to some degree randomized, it's much less of an issue. This kind of stuff makes a lot of sense in games like Guildball, WM/H or WoK because the games are designed around that kind of tight movement control. But most historicals or regimental fantasy games really weren't and so it creates a lot of dumb BS stuff. I remember playing WHFB against a guy who worked as a carpenter once and he was able to eyeball most distances to a margin of error of around a few MM and it was the most infuriating thing ever. I mean really the issue is that once you get past the interwar as a time period you shouldn't ever be playing a game at 1/72 or larger where anything on the table is out of range to a normal infantry rifle. I'd be very OK with a game that only used ranges for SMGs and squad AT weapons (fausts, PIATs, etc).
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Sep 3, 2016 00:00
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Not enough photos of grog toys on this page. So look, I painted a Pak 40!  
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Sep 3, 2016 00:47
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That looks great!
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Sep 3, 2016 01:15
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Enentol posted:Not enough photos of grog toys on this page. This is wonderful. But the one detail I can't get over is the loader's helmet. It's so smooth... Really well done!
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Sep 3, 2016 03:06
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Arquinsiel posted:Using Infinity as an example of good game design is doomed to failure TBH. Way too much chaff in that ruleset and using single D20 opposed rolls for everything is the best way to ensure players can get dicefucked by every FLGS's stock. Also, you can get dicefucked in any game that uses dice. Playing Apocalypse World games with selnaric is comedy gold because that dude can't usually roll above a 4 on sum-of-2D6 to save his loving life. And while we're on the subject of probability, being able to quickly calculate probabilities in your head gives you a pretty sizable advantage in most wargames. It lets you look at a situation and say, "OK, those guys have X chance to hit, meaning they'll kill Y number of my dudes, which reduces my future combat potential to Z - is that reduction enough to warrant me doing something different?" Everybody can have hot or cold dice on any given day, but over the long haul, the guy who can run the numbers better will have more success than the one who can't. And no, I'm not talking about giving people advantages to their fightmans based on their prior bayonet training (although if a dude threatened to bayonet me over it, I'd prolly give his guys an extra inch or two of movement, sure). I'm talking about the fact that someone who's seen a machinegun in action knows that running out in the open in front of one is a really bad idea. Tabletop gamers who've never done any kind of combined-arms training learn that crap the hard way - by losing a bunch of games and going, "Well, poo poo, I'm not gonna try that again..." There's a reason there are so many vets in the tabletop wargaming world - especially in historicals. They don't need to learn the base concepts of the game, they just need to learn the mechanics used to apply those concepts. They already know that advancing across open ground against an entrenched MG-42 without the benefit of any kind of covering fire is pretty suicidal. (mandatory zing ->) Unless you're playing Bolt Action, where I guess it's actually mostly safe. What I'm saying is that "generalship" is a skill like any other. Why should being able to estimate distances or do math in your head or remember which cards have been played be any different? If it's part of the game and you want to be good at the game, just learn to do it. Equally, if you don't think it brings anything mechanically interesting to the table then ignore it. But complaining that it makes "irrelevant" skills important seems pretty disingenuous. EDIT - also, that is a freaking beautiful PaK 40!
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Sep 3, 2016 03:41
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Also - show-and-tell time - How do you get your static grass to stand up in such nice little tufts like that? That is freaking awesome.
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Sep 3, 2016 03:43
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If you get a chance, look up the YouTube of the guys firing the pak40 in the desert, it's terrifying.
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Sep 3, 2016 03:47
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drat, thanks for all the nice comments guys! I guess I gotta post more stuff and more often.Ilor posted:Also - show-and-tell time - How do you get your static grass to stand up in such nice little tufts like that? That is freaking awesome. I cheat, and let someone else do the hard work: http://www.tajima1.co.uk/index.asp?pageid=282517 They're self adhesive too! Just pluck and place. Dirt Worshipper posted:If you get a chance, look up the YouTube of the guys firing the pak40 in the desert, it's terrifying. I've seen a ton of Pak 40 videos. Absolutely mind-boggling how crews could actually deal with the blow-back. Link for the lazy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7fhBm1ouSU&t=390s
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Sep 3, 2016 03:56
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Enentol posted:I cheat, and let someone else do the hard work:
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Sep 3, 2016 05:10
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lilljonas posted:It also depends on the game, I think. Like, if movement is a set amount of inches, then pre-measuring can end up with ridiculous situations, like you being able to place a unit exactly 1/12th an inch outside range of a counter-charge, or similar nonsense. But if moment is to some degree randomized, it's much less of an issue. I actually think this kind of thing is exactly why you should generally have games okay with measuring, so you don't get "That's a twelth-inch in" "No it isn't" style disputes. "That's more than 16" away, yeah?" is much less argument-starting.
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Sep 3, 2016 05:26
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I think more than anything else it's just a case of being chill with your opponent, regardless of rule set. I mean, yes, Infinity is a hard "no pre-measure" game, but you also have stuff like where players are declaring their intent and working together with their opponent to get stuff in the right place. "OK, I'm gonna move this guy up to that corner, but not so far out that that other dude can see him. Take a look from your side and let me know how far that is." And if the answer is, "no, man, as soon as that guy breaks cover he'll be seen," then most people are cool with "take-backsies" even in organized tournament play. "Hmmm, I guess I'll Idle and then chuck a smoke grenade instead, then." As long as you haven't gotten to the point where dice have been rolled (which only happens after all of the orders/reactions have been declared and movement is finished), people are remarkably flexible about it. I do agree that establishing distances before dice are rolled is a good practice, though. Like declare you're going to have your hussars make a mounted charge or whatever, but then measure the distance first and agree with your opponent, "so if I roll an 8 or more, you'd agree they make contact, yes?" Then once that agreement is made, roll dice. I've seen more 40K arguments start over random charge distances than anything else in the game, mostly because people didn't agree before the dice hit the table only to have the guy who doesn't want to get assaulted be claiming you're like 1mm too far out.
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Sep 3, 2016 06:49
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Ilor posted:
MGs on ambush are scary because they activate when your dudes are between cover and can land a bunch of hits, even at range.
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Sep 3, 2016 09:59
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Arquinsiel posted:Uh... no? The M1 was jn service three years earlier. The Challenger I was also pretty crappy and the Chieftain stayed in service for a long time until the kinks were worked out with the Challenger II. As I noted literally two posts later..
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Sep 3, 2016 10:38
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MiniWargaming seems to spitball a lot of ranges and premeasure charges, but they seem to be a chill bunch of dudes in any case. Also, lol at combined arms, that is sure gonna be relevant in hams Anyways, loving nerds talking about dice probabilities...
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Sep 3, 2016 13:11
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I would sell my soul for some good Soviet 80s units on TY. Gimme T-80U / T-80B1 / T-80BV or T-64BV. Would love more AT platforms too since NATO armor is tough as nails. At-5 teams at least, maybe that BRDM with the 5 AT-5 tubes on top. Also BTR-60/70/80 for lower point cost motor rifles. Would like to see Bradleys and M60A3s for US too but who knows.
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Sep 3, 2016 17:55
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Enentol posted:Not enough photos of grog toys on this page. very nice, is that a black tree design pak40?
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Sep 3, 2016 18:48
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:very nice, is that a black tree design pak40? It's Warlord. Pretty much stock except for a 95mm base from Warbases and I swapped two heads from the plastic kits to replace some of the goofy metal ones that are included.
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Sep 4, 2016 04:49
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Just catching up since like, the middle of the month, but Oscar Sierra Charlie is pretty cool, I bought the rules. The book design itself is very stylish and pretty. It seems pretty basic. I have the BA v2 rules. Not a ton changed, lots of small fixes and common sense stuff. They added templates and I have to say it's hugely disappointing, but I guess they can't do everything I like. I expect it will please most players overall and grow even more. I'm playing my first game of sp2 today, ACW western theater. I hope to have my guys fully painted shortly, then get some awi guys painted with a research project on the war in the south. I visited the Moores Creek NC battlefield recently on vacation and it was amazing. Truly a really bizarre battle, with loyalist Highlanders fighting whigs, with the Highlanders not having enough muskets so many of them had claymore.
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Sep 4, 2016 15:16
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muggins posted:Just catching up since like, the middle of the month, but Oscar Sierra Charlie is pretty cool, I bought the rules. The book design itself is very stylish and pretty. It seems pretty basic. How is your reading of the rules? I might be getting it wrong, but skill test rolls of unmodified 1 seems to kill miniatures dead, which I don't like. I haven't read it in depth, tho. I am happy about the 8 minis that came with it! On BA2: does it fix LMGs and, dunno, open tops carriers? I don't remember much of the main gripes. On BA news, I have the 22 man box of Italian paras (it had been opened before, so there might not be 22 dudes), a 10 man para squad blister and a blister of 5 paras with german weapons. Is that enough for 500pts? My :files: of Armies of Italy is missing the para section specifically.
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Sep 4, 2016 15:31
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Thanks for sharing about moores creek. I live near Wilmington and I've never heard of it so I'll have to check it out
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Sep 4, 2016 16:22
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FastestGunAlive posted:Thanks for sharing about moores creek. I live near Wilmington and I've never heard of it so I'll have to check it out It's in the middle of nowhere, but it's a really well kept national park. JcDent posted:How is your reading of the rules? I might be getting it wrong, but skill test rolls of unmodified 1 seems to kill miniatures dead, which I don't like. I haven't read it in depth, tho. I am happy about the 8 minis that came with it! I think you're right regarding OSC. LMGs get four shots instead of three, which is good. Flamethrower have to roll to hit. If you shoot a pintle mounted MG you count as open topped. Officers can activate other units when they do, which is really cool. There are more, but these are some highlights. Reece was fixed, team weapons can pivot and shoot I think that's enough for 500 pts, check Bolt Action easy army
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Sep 4, 2016 18:26
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Finished the last Fusiliers in my box of plastics from Perry, so now I'm off to base coat some Voltigeurs. That means I have almost four units of 8 infantrymen now (three men lacking in one of them due to the box having command instead of those three men, triggering some serious OCD).
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Sep 4, 2016 18:58
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muggins posted:I think you're right regarding OSC. LMGs get four shots instead of three, which is good. Flamethrower have to roll to hit. If you shoot a pintle mounted MG you count as open topped. Officers can activate other units when they do, which is really cool. There are more, but these are some highlights. Reece was fixed, team weapons can pivot and shoot Nice to hear! And yeah, I can build a platoon of Vet 2nd Lt + 1 Man 2 max size vet infantry squads with 1 LMG each Inex Mortar Reg Sniper Reg Flamer
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Sep 4, 2016 19:20
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muggins posted:It's in the middle of nowhere, but it's a really well kept national park. Where are you based out of if you don't mind me asking
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Sep 4, 2016 19:26
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lilljonas posted:Finished the last Fusiliers in my box of plastics from Perry, so now I'm off to base coat some Voltigeurs. That means I have almost four units of 8 infantrymen now (three men lacking in one of them due to the box having command instead of those three men, triggering some serious OCD).
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Sep 4, 2016 19:33
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Ilor posted:Are these 28mm plastics? They look fantastic! Thanks! Yes, I'm working my way through the Perry French Line Infantry box, and it's pretty great. It comes with 42 minis, including three command (battalion command though, so not perfect for Sharp Practice), 21 center company line infantry (fusiliers), and 18 elite company miniatures that can be made into either skirmishers (voltigeur) or grenadiers. So it will serve me great for an infantry foundation for my Sharp Practice French, and then I'll add cavalry and artillery to it. I really recommend it for anyone making late war French. I forgot to take pictures when I painted the first 8, but this time I did and I plan to put up a rudimentary painting guide to them on our Nappy blog: http://krigetkommer.weebly.com/napoleonic-blog
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Sep 4, 2016 20:15
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Ooooh, consider your Napoleonic blog bookmarked!
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Sep 4, 2016 21:28
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Anyone know of good plastic Roman (preferably Late Republican or Early Imperial) 28mm cavalry?
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Sep 4, 2016 22:04
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If anyone wanted the wargames factory infantry models, Dreamforge is selling them all for 13 bucks + shipping. http://dreamforge-games.com/collections/types?q=Infantry edit: 4 boxes was 64 dollars shipped to me long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 22:43
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Numlock posted:Anyone know of good plastic Roman (preferably Late Republican or Early Imperial) 28mm cavalry? All the options in plastic are garbage. I painted some on commission a while ago and the plastic ones (from WGF IIRC) were absolute trash. The ones made by Avertine are great but metal and expensive. I'd convert them. Fortunately our knowledge of Roman cavalry equipment comes down to a couple finds (hell we didn't really understand how they built saddles until the late 1990's IIRC) so you have a lot of flexibility. You could probably use the WGF Persian cavalry legs (since they commonly go on eBay/Hoardobits/etc for something like 2 dollars for a dozen), torsos /upper bodies from either the WGF, WG or Victrix Romans (or honestly Macedonians or Greeks depending on your choice of armor pattern), shields from somewhere that does round shields (lets say WGF Saxons) and then heads from whatever Roman manufacturer is cheapest.
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Sep 5, 2016 01:56
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FastestGunAlive posted:Where are you based out of if you don't mind me asking I'm actually in Michigan, but my parents are in Ocean Isle Beach down there.
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Sep 5, 2016 03:15
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