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Without 2 more yea's, Hawaii will not receive its full representation. Write your delegate now!
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Sep 5, 2016 02:16
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Loel posted:Thats why I have sections for 'this only counts as a law' or 'the govt will do x, with a 2016 budget of y' Now, I appreciate good infrastructure projects, but is a constitutional convention really the best place for that? These are complicated issues, deserving of public scrutiny and input. By its very nature, this constitutional convention is closed off from the people. It is organized by an unelected body, representing regions instead of the several states. If you want trains, that is a matter for an eventual governing body to decide upon. It seems short-sighted to pockmark the instrument of government with temporary appropriations. It would be a subversion and manipulation of this body's actual purpose. If you want to get around congress, enshrine national referendums and plebiscites. As for military involvement in national disasters, the military already involved itself through the national guard. If you want the military to become involved in civil emergencies, then you run the risk of violating posse comitatus and due process.
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Sep 5, 2016 02:16
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QuoProQuid posted:Now, I appreciate good infrastructure projects, but is a constitutional convention really the best place for that? These are complicated issues, deserving of public scrutiny and input. By its very nature, this constitutional convention is closed off from the people. It is organized by an unelected body, representing regions instead of the several states. If you want trains, that is a matter for an eventual governing body to decide upon. It seems short-sighted to pockmark the instrument of government with temporary appropriations. Yup. The original constitution had 'post offices', we can have 'trains'. quote:It would be a subversion and manipulation of this body's actual purpose. If you want to get around congress, enshrine national referendums and plebiscites.  Delegates Hernandez and Hernandez The American people gave us these powers because the standard methods haven't worked. Congress cant pass a bill, a budget, a Supreme Court justice. We're here to give the emergency lifesaving care, and then give the body politic back in better shape then when we got it. My reason for suggesting these two votes is because I think they are softballs - something that most of us can sell back home (Rights of a Child! Fix your potholes!) and will give us some breathing room to have our epic slapfight over gun laws and healthcare. Otherwise, it's 'the American people gave us emergency powers, and we still can't get anything done.' Let's give the talking heads something to distract them while we get into the nitty gritty. Loel fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:16
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The original constitution empowers Congress "To establish Post Offices and post Roads." It does not mandate a particular budget for a particular year. It only grants Congress the power to facilitate commerce. If you want to grant the national government the power to build trains, that's entirely acceptable. I would disagree with that inclusion, but it is ultimately your prerogative as delegates. My sole objection is with specifying a particular budget, as that is liable to abuse and sets a bad precedent. The system might not work, but it is your responsibility to fix it. You cannot call a constitutional convention every time the Interstate Highway System fails to get repaired. You cannot call for an amendment because the Air Force did not get an amendment for Fiscal Year 2018. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:23
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Without 2 more yea's, Hawaii will not receive its full representation. Write your delegate now! voting yes for this, so we can have an odd number of representatives. Honestly I'd like to smush Alaska in with them too, since they're also remote to the continental 48 and have similar concerns (mineral and land usage rights, marine law, Native American rights). edit: can we at least enshrine a prohibition on deficit spending for wars?
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Sep 5, 2016 02:27
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Delegates Hernandez and Hernandez How is there a precedent? Do we expect to have a third constitutional convention anytime this century? Everything about this is a special case. And while the previous Constitution listed 'post office' under responsibilities, the recent Congress has been doing their best to destroy it. They are ignoring their responsibilities to pass bills, budgets, and Justices, which is why the appendix to this iteration requires a bit of handholding. Loel fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:27
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Also this is a good chance to remove the racist reference to'savages' in the original document
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Sep 5, 2016 02:30
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I wasn't going to lobby for "And the Q will extend to 103rd St for a convenient transfer from the 6", but meant more like "Public transport is a right and we're gonna make it happen, it is loving dumb that it's easier to go NYC>Albany>Boston than NYC>Boston (as an example), when all three are about equidistant and Albany is, well, you either know what I mean or have no idea where Albany is and I rest my point." And this is two relatively well connected East Coast metro areas. NYC to Seattle, or gently caress Spokane, I might as well get hosed. Also gun registration and licensing. And gently caress anything that isn't useful for hunting. Yeah I think I'm getting my full NYC on. (Showtime dancers will be drawn and quartered.)
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Sep 5, 2016 02:34
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cat_herder posted:voting yes for this, so we can have an odd number of representatives. Honestly I'd like to smush Alaska in with them too, since they're also remote to the continental 48 and have similar concerns (mineral and land usage rights, marine law, Native American rights). I would be fine with this, as well as including Puerto Rico in as well with the Pacific territories
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Sep 5, 2016 02:34
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Xiahou Dun posted:I wasn't going to lobby for "And the Q will extend to 103rd St for a convenient transfer from the 6", but meant more like "Public transport is a right and we're gonna make it happen, it is loving dumb that it's easier to go NYC>Albany>Boston than NYC>Boston (as an example), when all three are about equidistant and Albany is, well, you either know what I mean or have no idea where Albany is and I rest my point." Delegates Hernandez and Hernandez I'm happy to have the states and legislatures manage the particulars, I simply want to get the ball rolling. Four trillion in needed maintenance, good lord. Loel fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:35
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Loel posted:
 If we are so worried about Congress failing to pass certain bills, why even have a Congress? Why not just declare the members of this Constitutional Convention to be absolute rulers, governing into perpetuity? Why not undo the revolution and bring back the age of kings? I understand that the democratic process can be inconvenient, but it exists for a reason. The Framers failed to enshrine appropriations for a reason. If we were to do that, it would encourage states to call for a constitutional convention whenever they lost a grant or pet project. It would encourage constitutional amendments over asinine minutia when those matters can be better decided by a deliberative standing body. I don't disagree that infrastructure spending is important, but it deserves to be discussed in the public sphere and voted upon by elected representatives, not decided in a smoky backroom.
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Sep 5, 2016 02:36
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QuoProQuid posted:
Delegates Hernandez and Hernandez Well, it would take 6/11 votes to do so, which I don't think we'll get. Additionally, calling for a constitutional convention is hard enough that it happens once every ten generations. I think your claims are much ado over nothing. Loel fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:38
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I vote against hawaii being a seperate voting block. It would grant too much power to a single small state that does not represent the wider necessities and desires of the country at large.
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Sep 5, 2016 02:39
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Rafza posted:I would be fine with this, as well as including Puerto Rico in as well with the Pacific territories Elmnt80 posted:I vote against hawaii being a seperate voting block. It would grant too much power to a single small state that does not represent the wider necessities and desires of the country at large. The current vote is for an 11th bloc to be created consisting of Hawai'i, Alaska, Puerto Rico, Marianas Island, America Samoa and the various other Pacific conquests. WRITE YOUR DELEGATE!
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Sep 5, 2016 02:39
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QuoProQuid posted:As for military involvement in national disasters, the military already involved itself through the national guard. If you want the military to become involved in civil emergencies, then you run the risk of violating posse comitatus and due process. I think it would be better to use the process of nationalizing the US police force, and adding in specific powers to draw on said new organization for civil emergencies. Keep the soldiers for war. Even that idea sounds like it could get pretty messy when you get some governor calling up his guard units for civil unrest while the federal police force mobilizes separately. Might have to think a bit about the whole national guard thing in general, and if our modern nation needs one? Edit: erm non-delegates are allowed to discuss poo poo in here right? I haven't really been tagging poster names to delegates yet besides my own. SpaceCadetBob fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:41
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Loel posted:
Excuse me, but I am a very important newspaper man and the media would never stir up unrealistic fears or fabricate controversy for personal benefit. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:41
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Edit: erm non-delegates are allowed to discuss poo poo in here right? I haven't really been tagging poster names to delegates yet besides my own. Yup!
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Sep 5, 2016 02:45
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QuoProQuid posted:The original constitution empowers Congress "To establish Post Offices and post Roads." It does not mandate a particular budget for a particular year. It only grants Congress the power to facilitate commerce. When Ohio has anything of a semblance of infrastructure that the Northeast corridor has, then has said infrastructure neglected due to short lived legislative folk not having an innate mandate to support said infrastructure and let it languish for decades, then I will consider Ohio's opinion on infrastructure to have any merit.
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Sep 5, 2016 02:46
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As a concerned citizen of Georgia, I think it would be wise for the Constitution to contain something to protect against gerrymandering. At the very least, some kind of clear criteria for redistricting so the Supreme Court can act against obvious gerrymandering.
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Sep 5, 2016 02:51
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Pakled posted:As a concerned citizen of Georgia, I think it would be wise for the Constitution to contain something to protect against gerrymandering. Delegates Hernandez and Hernandez The Great State of Tejas agrees, and will put forth every effort to ensure democracy. Loel fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 02:52
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I concur with the point of the delegate from Libertopia (I assume??? I also am very bad at names to regions) that enshrining specific appropriations in the Constitution is a poor idea. If we wish to ensure the Congress, or whatever legislative body we establish, pays for trains, we can always use the nuclear option of constitutional law, which is of course the word Shall. Congress shall provide for the establishment, throughout the republic, a system of public transit (or something along those lines). Anything beyond that must be the domain of the people and their legislature however.
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Sep 5, 2016 03:24
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Quorum posted:I concur with the point of the delegate from Libertopia (I assume??? I also am very bad at names to regions) that enshrining specific appropriations in the Constitution is a poor idea. If we wish to ensure the Congress, or whatever legislative body we establish, pays for trains, we can always use the nuclear option of constitutional law, which is of course the word Shall. Congress shall provide for the establishment, throughout the republic, a comprehensive, efficient, and affordable system of public transit (or something along those lines). Anything beyond that must be the domain of the people and their legislature however. Pakled posted:As a concerned citizen of Georgia, I think it would be wise for the Constitution to contain something to protect against gerrymandering. At the very least, some kind of clear criteria for redistricting so the Supreme Court can act against obvious gerrymandering. yes please. Defining a citizen as a single individual human being would be good too. Treaty voting! posted:
I'm ok with ratifying all of these. While we're at it, how can we codify ENDA? Also voting yes to require infrastructure expansion and maintenance. cat_herder fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 03:59
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e: double post
cat_herder fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 05:16
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3/6 Votes (RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Loel) UN Convention on the Rights of the Child UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women UN Convention on the Law of the Sea UN International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights 1/6 Votes (Cat_herder) Convention on Cluster Munitions Ottawa Treaty The Rome Statute 1/6 votes (cat_herder) random paul, seiferguy, xiahou dun? Infrastructure mandate Loel fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 05:18
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It is abundantly clear that there is a desire to ensure proper funding for infrastructure. It is unfortunate that the initial effort was done in such a hamfisted way. But that doesn't change the fact that the common man in the street has to deal with the failure of congress to act on its moral obligations. He knows that it's wrong for states to have to beg Congress for the infrastructure funds they're rightly owed by virtue of the taxes they send to Washington! We shouldn't mandate how much money gets spent on what, we can still address this constitutionally. To that end I'll propose adding a 19th clause to article 1, section 8 of the constitution. "To see to the maintenance and security of our critical resources and infrastructure." Legislatively this can be through the creation of an infrastructure bonds program, or an infrastructure bank, that particular debate must be held in public. But whenever the congress fails to act you can bet that the people, the towns, the counties, the states will take the feds to the court and that the feds will lose! (OOC: I feel like I'm jumping the gun here...)
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Sep 5, 2016 07:03
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Loel posted:3/6 Votes (RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Loel) Yay to all.
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Sep 5, 2016 07:20
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4/6 Votes (RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Loel, seiferguy) UN Convention on the Rights of the Child UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women UN Convention on the Law of the Sea UN International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights 3/6 Votes (Cat_herder, seiferguy, loel) Convention on Cluster Munitions Ottawa Treaty The Rome Statute 3/6 votes (cat_herder, seiferguy, loel) random paul, xiahou dun? Infrastructure mandate
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Sep 5, 2016 07:23
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New England is down for all of that poo poo.
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Sep 5, 2016 07:44
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5/6 Votes (RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Loel, seiferguy, ragnarokangel) UN Convention on the Rights of the Child UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women UN Convention on the Law of the Sea UN International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights 4/6 Votes (Cat_herder, seiferguy, loel, ragnarokangel) Convention on Cluster Munitions Ottawa Treaty The Rome Statute 4/6 votes (cat_herder, seiferguy, loel, ragnarokangel) random paul, xiahou dun? Infrastructure mandate
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Sep 5, 2016 07:45
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Certain non-constituent parties have made their disapproval of giving tribes first dibs at public lands apparent. In response, I'm changing my picture to this:  and also doubling down on expanding tribal rights. cat_herder fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 08:49
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Nevermind
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Sep 5, 2016 09:13
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(OOC: [Ed note: Loel and I reached an agreement where I'd reformat his amendments in a way that'd more easily fit the existing constitution.] Okay, so, figuring out a way to fit loels infrastructure proposals into the existing constitution took a few hours longer than desired. The stuff that's not quoted is the spin/explanation. The stuff that is quoted/bolded are the amendments. The draft doc is here. Feel free to make notes by going [name: spelled this wrong, used word wrong, etc] but don't delete anything okay?) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RRotn2RFG4eDJMxMk0r3rx2r4LMxtMtdjoEu7XO5aMo/edit?usp=sharing RandomPauI fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 11:12
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Looks good in sketch! Gives my proposal some clarity, I like your funding mechanism. 5/6 Votes (RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Loel, seiferguy, ragnarokangel) UN Convention on the Rights of the Child UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women UN Convention on the Law of the Sea UN International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights 5/6 votes (cat_herder, seiferguy, loel, ragnarokangel, random paul) xiahou dun? Infrastructure mandate 4/6 Votes (Cat_herder, seiferguy, loel, ragnarokangel) Convention on Cluster Munitions Ottawa Treaty The Rome Statute I figure we'll go through the entire edited Constitution once we're done, make it a final draft. Loel fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 11:21
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(OOC: Calling a victory feels like jumping the gun, especially given how minimal the discussion in thread was. There's a big difference between "we all want this so now it has to get done!" and "here's how we authorize fixes, identify needs, and pay for it". I definitely see Pragmatic Populist Charles Tingle taking a short-term political hit back home for increasing government spending and a long-term political hit for the UN treaties.)
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Sep 5, 2016 11:37
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(Once we get the 6th vote Ill do a big IC speech on bipartisan stimulus packages  )Who wants to be our sixth vote? Biggest stimulus package in history!
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Sep 5, 2016 11:38
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I'll vote for all that so hard! (Sorry, I was asleep.)
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Sep 5, 2016 14:25
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I am holding off on any official votes, because the agenda doesn't call for them yet! Right now we're mostly just kibbutzing and trading ideas. Put Infrastructure down as one of your region's big ticket agenda items and when we get to that week we can have the official votes.
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Sep 5, 2016 15:13
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RagnarokAngel at what point were you planning to announce to your constituents in the Boston thread that you are representing our interests in the Constitutional Convention? I am satisfied with your leadership for now but bear in mind that I exert significant influence on several forum constituencies and I want to make sure that our interests are well-represented. Especially in what will be a daunting and convoluted system of which ain't nobody got time for.
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Sep 5, 2016 15:19
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Rafza posted:I understand Hawaii got swallowed up (by the east coast of all things) but if Texas can have its own thing, I'd like to represent Hawaii. Hell, give me all of the Pacific territories while we're at it.  UPDATE! With a much closer vote than expected, the motion is carried, and Rafza becomes the 11th delegate from the bloc of Kalakaua. We welcome our island friend, representing the diaspora of American interests worldwide. Aloha! 
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Sep 5, 2016 15:41
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Welcome to our newest delegate! The non-continental possessions of the United States, our empire by another name, deserves representation just as much as the citizens of the contiguous forty-eight, and we of the Tidewater look forward to your support for sensible, well-implemented reforms. If it please the convention, please enjoy this updated map (now including New York's seizure of lower Connecticut and the creation of the new non-contiguous eleventh delegation)!  WARNING: loving ENORMOUS just like this convention
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Sep 5, 2016 15:55
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