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I hate base building in RTS because I hate heavy micro and build orders, my ideal solution would be having like an AI companion that does all of the base building and takes directions from the player, like telling them where to expand or when, but let the AI actually focus on rounding up the workers, deciding what to build and when, and managing the resources. The player's job would be to take the armies the AI is building for them and put them to use, defend the bases or capture strategic points and direct battlefield tactics. That way everyone's "APM"/"Build Order" is equivalent without taking away too much player agency. You can focus on who's better at commanding troops or controlling the map while still retaining the familiar parts of an RTS game like stomping through the enemy's base and prioritizing their armor factories or whatever. Also however I'm bad at RTS games.
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Aug 26, 2016 00:36
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I like building orderly communities of orks. It scratches some itch I can't quite name. When playing against AI I like the feeling of conquering the map, and building forward bases helps illustrate your progress.
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Aug 26, 2016 01:03
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Shakill OReal posted:I hate base building in RTS because I hate heavy micro and build orders, my ideal solution would be having like an AI companion that does all of the base building and takes directions from the player, like telling them where to expand or when, but let the AI actually focus on rounding up the workers, deciding what to build and when, and managing the resources. The player's job would be to take the armies the AI is building for them and put them to use, defend the bases or capture strategic points and direct battlefield tactics. That way everyone's "APM"/"Build Order" is equivalent without taking away too much player agency. You can focus on who's better at commanding troops or controlling the map while still retaining the familiar parts of an RTS game like stomping through the enemy's base and prioritizing their armor factories or whatever. If you want an online RTS where APM doesn't matter and there's no basebuilding (just offmap summoning of units) then look at the Wargame series. Otherwise you might be poo poo out of luck.
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Aug 26, 2016 01:52
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It's pretty hard to make RTS multiplayer with base building where APM/build order/micro doesn't matter because that's literally impossible. You might as well ask someone to make an FPS where reflexes don't matter. Even with this hypothetical AI, if it needs directions someone who can give those directions faster and more intelligently will be better. Someone who can direct units faster will be better. Just hope the single player is good, jedi master Angelos aside, where APM and micro/macro actually can be downplayed because it's against a computer and, in general, the focus is one having the two armies smash into each other with a small amount of strategy required.
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Aug 26, 2016 05:51
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Tbh I never really felt like planetary annihilation's multiplayer really hinged much on build orders or precise micro control Playing ranked made build orders matter some (mostly just what your first 3 factories were) but generally the important emphasis was on aggressive forward building, predicting enemy strategy, army composition, territory control, and other higher-level strategic decisions I mean the #1 deciding factor of a game was always "how well did you raid the other guy early/how well did you counter his early raiding" in ranked but past the early game those other factors quickly became the most important, and in non-ranked random play that wasn't 1v1 aggressive early raiding wasn't even the best option usually (fast expansion with a plan to deal with raiding usually worked out better imo) The whole multiple planets deal made the game turn super tedious later though, once a player had a planet all to themselves the game got kind of stupid
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Aug 26, 2016 06:02
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Deified Data posted:I like building orderly communities of orks. It scratches some itch I can't quite name. When playing against AI I like the feeling of conquering the map, and building forward bases helps illustrate your progress. I build multiple bases and give multipath orders to wartrukks and pretend they're city buses that shuffle orks around during their daily commute.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:11
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Mans posted:I build multiple bases and give multipath orders to wartrukks and pretend they're city buses that shuffle orks around during their daily commute. battle bus!
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Aug 26, 2016 13:02
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Mans posted:I build multiple bases and give multipath orders to wartrukks and pretend they're city buses that shuffle orks around during their daily commute. You mean they're not?
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Aug 26, 2016 17:47
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Kibayasu posted:It's pretty hard to make RTS multiplayer with base building where APM/build order/micro doesn't matter because that's literally impossible. True but the extent of their influence can be downplayed or bottlenecked through mechanics, which is what the people bringing it up really want. Using this series as can example, DoW2's squads of units had a lot of inertia in movement/shooting/dying allowing generous time for action input, unlike finickier RTSes where selecting the precise number of guys to kill enemy units in one synchronized volley was probably the most effective way to go. Resource generating mechanics that just involve holding points had much less housekeeping/overhead than managing a separate worker caste, with multiple buildings and multiple resources on top of your military. At that level of housekeeping you might as well just have an AI do it anyway since following an optimized flowchart nearly automates the process in and of itself - getting a U number of workers so you can harvest a W amount of resource A so you can later have X workers to harvest a Y of B so at 3 minutes you can build exactly a Z number of unit alpha is mechanical as all hell.
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Aug 26, 2016 18:57
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The PAX demo for this was a full level of the campaign with about 30 minutes to play and I loved it. The base-building was pretty much identical to Dawn of War 1 and the special units were like like Dawn of War 2's. The Blood Angels were lead by a very familiar Captain Angelos but the star of the show was definitely the Imperial Knight. She was a badass that did all the heavy lifting on attack and even Marines like Dreadnaughts and Assault Terminators were basically just support for her.
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Sep 5, 2016 00:46
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Redjakk posted:The PAX demo for this was a full level of the campaign with about 30 minutes to play and I loved it. The base-building was pretty much identical to Dawn of War 1 and the special units were like like Dawn of War 2's. Sounds cool. I'm glad it works like a mix of 1 and 2, I had a lot of trouble playing 2.
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Sep 5, 2016 05:04
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Well, we got some press videos from the PAX West demo: Gamespot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsBRx6ZwSjA PC Gamer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF0toTAR_Fs I can see why RTS is a dying genre.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:56
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This game just doesn't feel DoW to me, where is the crazy action and carnage? I just looks kinda dull and lifeless. 
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Sep 7, 2016 17:14
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Shakill OReal posted:I hate base building in RTS because I hate heavy micro and build orders, my ideal solution would be having like an AI companion that does all of the base building and takes directions from the player, like telling them where to expand or when, but let the AI actually focus on rounding up the workers, deciding what to build and when, and managing the resources. The player's job would be to take the armies the AI is building for them and put them to use, defend the bases or capture strategic points and direct battlefield tactics. That way everyone's "APM"/"Build Order" is equivalent without taking away too much player agency. You can focus on who's better at commanding troops or controlling the map while still retaining the familiar parts of an RTS game like stomping through the enemy's base and prioritizing their armor factories or whatever. In a way, that's kind of what DoW II had already achieved. Resource gathering had been wholly outsourced to fighting over important points directly on the battlefield. Instead of loving around with builder units or separate buildings, it just distilled the strategic choices down into simple upgrade choices you could directly resources. If you want higher-tier units, you don't need to gently caress around building necessary buildings, you just slam the "tech-up" button in your base and pay the associated resource cost. If you want to upgrade your units, you don't build another upgrade-centric building, you just buy it directly from within the unit's screen. Even balancing your economy vs. your units was as simple as hitting a button to upgrade your captured energy nodes. It basically stripped out all the needless busywork that usually lies beetween making a strategic choice and actually executing it in game. gently caress, why can't we just get DoW II remastered or something?
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Sep 7, 2016 17:43
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I would honestly be totally happy with the game just being DoW2 with new campaigns and more races.
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Sep 7, 2016 17:59
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 I've seen a few videos now and I'm just disappointed. The game doesn't look exciting at all and the people playing it are simply attack-moving all over the place. The player in that Gamespot video is particularly bad. I was really hoping that Relic would take more elements from DoW2, but I think the new approach to cover should've been a dead giveaway. It doesn't even look like there's any friendly fire on artillery or abilities so players can just mash their armies together without any thought. Also, what's with jumpy Angelos? I think whoever animated him doesn't really understand what terminator armor is supposed to be.
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Sep 7, 2016 18:05
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Relic, please stop showing off that bland map. Ty
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Sep 7, 2016 18:35
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There is some hope the attack moving is just demoing on a lower difficulty to show off the effects, graphics and other visuals - earlier videos explicitly had reduced enemy health to let the knight gib the masses. In DoW2 you could get by with attack moving on anything other than hard and primarch. Actually that's a great question, what are good ways off showing off an RTS through a gameplay video? Shooters prefer to show off with a player rampaging through a hoard with a satisfying weapon while adventure games show off someone navigating a difficult but gorgeous level, I guess an RTS should focus on unit variety, purpose and terrain?
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Sep 7, 2016 18:36
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Choyi posted:This game just doesn't feel DoW to me, where is the crazy action and carnage? I just looks kinda dull and lifeless. Yeah, and all the previews keep comparing it to Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2* and DOTA and I'm just all, "but I don't much care for any of those things?" Who knows, maybe it's just that everyone playing it so far is bad. E: *like seriously, Eldar units all have personal shields now, sound familiar? Mordja fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 7, 2016 18:38
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Safety Factor posted:Also, what's with jumpy Angelos? I think whoever animated him doesn't really understand what terminator armor is supposed to be. This. I know it's petty but that one dumb animation where he flips the hammer is almost enough to get me to not play the game. Given that it's his main (and only) ability, I may just pass.
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Sep 7, 2016 19:10
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Ninja flipping terminator armor Gabriel Angelos is actively making me miss Force Commander Vanilla Ice from DoW2. I don't know, it just looks like they are trying a little too hard to ape on Starcraft 2's style. Say what you will about DoW 2 but the art and the animations made it unique when compared to things like Starcraft or DotA
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Sep 7, 2016 19:33
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They are definitely looking to fill SC2's gaping niche. No synch kills, dynamic movement or retreat mechanic means almost perfectly predictable movement/combat - that along with base building, resource gathering, and sharp, distinctive but cartoony visuals and is definitely a firm step towards the traditional sc2-style rts.
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Sep 7, 2016 19:56
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hard counter posted:No synch kills 
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Sep 7, 2016 19:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qatd9xyp3Wo The interview that mentions it @6:14.
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Sep 7, 2016 20:22
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The gently caress? The intentional imbalances in Dawn of War are what make the game fun!
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Sep 7, 2016 20:38
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Safety Factor posted:Holy poo poo, they have completely missed the point. Sync kills were alright the first few times but I'm pretty sure I stopped noticing them after a couple hours. I've found Starcraft 2's death animations/effects a lot more satisfying to watch than DoW's sync kills. I also agree with the DoW dev guy in the video above with his comments about how sync kills affect gameplay. Especially in DoW1 with invincible chain-sync-killing stuff they were annoying more than anything.
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Sep 7, 2016 20:41
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Lassitude posted:Sync kills were alright the first few times but I'm pretty sure I stopped noticing them after a couple hours. I've found Starcraft 2's death animations/effects a lot more satisfying to watch than DoW's sync kills. I also agree with the DoW dev guy in the video above with his comments about how sync kills affect gameplay. Especially in DoW1 with invincible chain-sync-killing stuff they were annoying more than anything. Fuuuuck sync kills *throws a melta bomb at a dreadnought* *dreadnought is in the middle of a seven-second interpretive dance as it kills a single model and is totally immune to the bomb* I would honestly enjoy an RTS game where I didn't have to look up .lua data on a wiki to understand what my poo poo even does. Relic loved to make a zillion different types of damage and armor. Or... they'd put out the base game with one design philosophy, then make an expansion that radically changes it in an unintuitive way.
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Sep 7, 2016 21:08
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DoW3 is seriously chasing the SC2 crowd and that makes me sad. Both previous titles tried something different and pushed the envelope but DoW3 feels derivative so far. I agree that DoWII was probably too complicated and micro-heavy (though I still played it a ton) but what I'm seeing so far is extremely thread-bare in terms of gameplay mechanics. It seems like attack+move, find cover, defeat cover, and hopefully use your Elites to turn the tide of battle because everything else is RPS-style hard counters. As a fan of the fluff and lore, Eldar having personal shields make me cringe. Snyc-kills were opportunities to see giant behemoths kill each other in glorious ways, no more, no less. They were annoying in MP and I can understand disabling them but it was part of the charm of the series, even if they took player control out. Walkers ought to tear each other apart and the super huge units ought to have very cool death animations. I think it was less of a gameplay decision and more of a cost vs. benefit thing. It takes a ton of time to animate and it only gets worse as you add more unit types and graphical fidelity. Still, if sync-kills were limited to just a few of the large units, I'd be much happier than if they were removed completely. Overall, I'm not looking forward to the title. I think they've changed too much but then again, I haven't played it.
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Sep 7, 2016 21:20
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Arcsquad12 posted:The gently caress? The intentional imbalances in Dawn of War are what make the game fun! It's weird but I agree? RTSes can get beardy when you know that exactly 5 missile hits will scrap a tough model or that 2 ranged volleys kills an elite model. You adjust your micro to achieve peak kills per action and ideally your whole army is feed exact firing instructions. Having a dreadnought eat 7 missiles and still not go down because he went full  on some boyz and had the i-frames tanking for him is both warham as hell and inflicts diminishing returns on excessive micro, lessening the RTS's entry. I hope they at least keep random critical hits.
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Sep 7, 2016 21:46
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As an rts baby I think this game looks fine. Cover is a bit weird, but other than that I'm not seeing much I dislike. I'm not even sure how to compare it to previous DoWs since I only played campaign and they both had super different campaigns. Honestly I just wish they'd show more than the chilly planet. I like me some ice levels, and volcanic ice levels are even neater, but it'd be nice to see a hive city or something. KillerQueen fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 02:15
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Yeah, it really looks like they're chasing Starcraft 2 here and I can't say I like it. I've enjoyed SC2 but that's not what made DoW great, and other games that have tried to ape their formula have missed what made it work. We'll see.
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Sep 8, 2016 10:22
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This is so lame. Move blob, halt, fire at other blob, repeat. Also have they abandoned PhysX? It sure looks like a SC2 clone to me. KingEup fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 13:43
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hard counter posted:It's weird but I agree? I mean, DoW2 struck the right balance with the sync kills in that they were significantly rarer and were generally variations of 'Grab -> Hit once with weapon -> Throw over shoulder' or 'Headbut -> Big swing' that were over in about a second. You really didn't have DoW1 style dreadnoughts/killa kan 'Grab a dude, stomp around for a second, crush and/or cut enemy, slam enemy into ground once or twice, stomp around some more for good measure, toss backwards or over shoulder' that lasted multiple seconds. Granted DoW2 has some longer/cooler sync kills like the walkers killing other walkers or the SM force commander killing a carnifex, but if you saw those the fight was generally over and IIRC the syncing unit wasn't invincible and could still be killed.
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Sep 8, 2016 14:13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qatd9xyp3Wo&t=381s *unstickies thread
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Sep 8, 2016 14:31
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DeathSandwich posted:IIRC the syncing unit wasn't invincible and could still be killed. They take reduced damage and can't dip below 1 hp during the animation. I know this because I can't count how many times I've expected my howling banshees to drop an assault squad without casualties only for the last man standing to rip out a from hell's heart I stab at thee sync kill to butcher a model while her squad hacks away at him with all futility because nothing will stop this final act. It's unlikely but possible for the model to then live off the 1hp after the animation. hard counter fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 23:52
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hard counter posted:They take reduced damage and can't dip below 1 hp during the animation. I know this because I can't count how many times I've expected my howling banshees to drop an assault squad without casualties only for the last man standing to rip out a from hell's heart I stab at thee sync kill to butcher a model while her squad hacks away at him with all futility because nothing will stop this final act. What an un-40k thing to do in a video game.
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Sep 9, 2016 00:01
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Yeah, that's the problem I have with trying to make Dawn of War a smooth and competitive balanced and predictable SC2-style experience. It stops feeling like 40k.
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Sep 9, 2016 10:24
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An unresponsive user experience is so guys Calling frustrating design consequences a baked-in feature of Dawn of War games and Actually Good is some incredible revisionist history. Those sweet killsync i-frames, bro are usually on a big vehicle or a walker leading a tier 2 push or a turnaround. Either that dreadnought gets hard countered, or you retreat, or you stick around and it clowns on your squad. If you HAVE the hard counter, you should expect it to work - those counters are usually on long cooldowns or have some kind of non-trivial cost to using them. If I spent limited resources on the correct counter-play, and my opponent creates an opening for me to use that counter-play, I should be able to use it! And that's leaving aside targeting AI. How many times, in these games, has your expensive anti-vehicle platform whiffed its first shot because it auto targeted an infantry unit? You sit on your hands and wait for the cooldown, and then the walker or a tac marine bio-ball or whatever focuses down your hard counter. I guess I'm in the minority here but I feel like cinematic flourishes that take control away from the player at critical moments are a thing I'm happy to see vanish.
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Sep 9, 2016 16:23
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In other 40k news, GW just formally ended their relationship with Fantasy Flight, killing all their RPG and boardgame lines. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/9/9/a-new-path-forward/ EDIT: \/ to be fair, the GW boardgames released on FFG have been rather terrible. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 16:29
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That seems real dumb, FF makes extremely good games with beautiful artwork. I bought a Star Wars RPG book despite not ever playing the game. GW Is gonna try to do it on their own and fail horrible aren't they?
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Sep 9, 2016 16:32
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