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Does anyone have advice on coming up with manageable plots for short stories? I feel like when I plan a short story I always just write "here is a situation (nothing happens)" or else I try to expand on that situation and I end up with a really complicated plot that blows out to >10,000 words.
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Sep 8, 2016 13:01
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Something I've gotten more than a few times in feedback when I try to write action is that everything ends up being too easy for my main characters. How can I fix that? Looking for tips on writing action sequences featuring active and competent characters that can make it feel like they have real, serious opposition and threat, ways to put something in between a character having a problem and them using their skills and abilities to solve it that doesn't feel like stalling for time, that kind of thing.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:05
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Speaking as more of a reader than a writer, I get that "too easy" impression when the protagonists "win" every encounter -- that is, they accomplish their objectives or at the very least are not forced to back off. If they are presented with obstacles that they can't quickly overcome, that force them to change their plans and to take clearly non-optimal "paths", then I start believing that their lives are not too easy. With action scenes, I guess one way to think about it is like a tabletop roleplaying game. Your characters have skills, and they may be very good at them, but they still have to make a skill check to use those skills. Just because your protagonist is a star track athlete doesn't mean they can successfully hurdle over oncoming cars 100% of the time. In a fight, combatants may be stronger, faster, or more skilled -- "there's always someone better" after all. In other words, competence does not require perfect execution every time. Not only that, there may be factors in play that the protagonist simply doesn't know about, like an antagonist who isn't acting alone, turning the protagonists' planned ambush into a pitched battle. Having your main characters learn important new information that throws their plans into disarray, while they're in a stressful situation, should do a good job of making their lives seem difficult. 
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Sep 8, 2016 19:48
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Sailor Viy posted:Does anyone have advice on coming up with manageable plots for short stories? I feel like when I plan a short story I always just write "here is a situation (nothing happens)" or else I try to expand on that situation and I end up with a really complicated plot that blows out to >10,000 words. I'm curious to hear answers to this as well, as I've been struggling with it myself. The things I've found to be helpful is to structure out the story the same you would a longer work (I tend to go pretty bare-bones and just list off events that I want to happen at some point, flesh out characters, etc. but not necessarily a hard outline, at least prior to a first draft), then cut anything that isn't strictly essential to telling the core story or the main theme of the work. I've also approached them with the mindset that no narrative element can do only one thing-- especially description. It has to tell me about where the story is taking place AND the mood AND the characters, for example. If it's just some random bit of backstory that only somewhat fleshes out a character, I target it and either rework it so it's doing much more through subtext or word choice or whatever, or cut it entirely. I've also found that dropping the reader into the story as late as possible while still giving them all the pertinent info to tell the tale helps. That said I'm still so totally new to this that it'd take all of this with a grain of salt. What's really worked for me, more than anything, is just writing a first draft, then seeing how much I can cut/shorten/rework and still say everything that needs to be said (as opposed to what I want to say or feel like I should say).
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Sep 8, 2016 19:53
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Thranguy posted:Something I've gotten more than a few times in feedback when I try to write action is that everything ends up being too easy for my main characters. How can I fix that? Looking for tips on writing action sequences featuring active and competent characters that can make it feel like they have real, serious opposition and threat, ways to put something in between a character having a problem and them using their skills and abilities to solve it that doesn't feel like stalling for time, that kind of thing. Just remember, the best action sequences come when the antagonist is just as active, skilled, and competent as the protagonist. If you can consider how the antagonist is struggling to succeed just like the protagonist, you can raise the stakes for both of them and create tension because only one of them is able to succeed.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:29
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Re: writing in short word count Focus on a single conflict and make sure everything in your story ties back to that. Conflicts that involve a lot of moving parts are going to be very hard to sell as opposed to a simple one-on-one challenge. One of the Thunderdome vets said "start when your story gets interesting" and that's a good way to tell if you need to cut your opening. Generally also a good idea to write something that can be concluded without needing scene breaks, because multiple scenes require extra effort to set up and execute. Re: challenge in action scenes There's a few structural things you can do to make things harder for your characters.
In broader terms, I think an ideal action scene is one where a character trait becomes an advantage--not a trump card, but something they can use instead of brute force. An action scene that's too easy might be one where the hero knows the weak spot, so all he has to do is shoot the monster there and then it dies. That's not fun. But if the monster can guard its weak spot, then he has to wait for an opening. Don't give your character an opening that any bozo could use to succeed, give them an opening that only they could use to succeed.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:54
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Sailor Viy posted:Does anyone have advice on coming up with manageable plots for short stories? I feel like when I plan a short story I always just write "here is a situation (nothing happens)" or else I try to expand on that situation and I end up with a really complicated plot that blows out to >10,000 words. Do you have something specific in mind that you want to write, or are you just looking for a target length and not married to any particular concept? If the former: why do you feel that short story is the best format? If the thing you want to write keeps blowing up to novella length then maybe you should just write a novella. If the latter: your issue is likely scope management: you're used to writing big and keep trying to add more rather than take away. If you just want to get some practice in, try setting some content restrictions that will force you to make a small story - the entire story consists of a single scene, or you only have two characters, or something else like that. Also, you might be too tied up on the idea of something needing to "happen" to make it a story. An interesting conversation can make for a complete short story.
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Sep 8, 2016 21:44
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Djeser posted:In broader terms, I think an ideal action scene is one where a character trait becomes an advantage--not a trump card, but something they can use instead of brute force. An action scene that's too easy might be one where the hero knows the weak spot, so all he has to do is shoot the monster there and then it dies. That's not fun. But if the monster can guard its weak spot, then he has to wait for an opening. Don't give your character an opening that any bozo could use to succeed, give them an opening that only they could use to succeed. I just realized this is why JoJo is so good, even though it's written so bad
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Sep 8, 2016 22:15
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esp if it's a trait they didn't possess at the beginning of the work, but acquired over the course of the story. something like patience or whatever the gently caress.
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Sep 8, 2016 23:59
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crabrock posted:esp if it's a trait they didn't possess at the beginning of the work, but acquired over the course of the story. something like patience or whatever the gently caress. or a stand that punches cartoon sound effects into your face
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Sep 9, 2016 00:29
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Sailor Viy posted:Does anyone have advice on coming up with manageable plots for short stories? I feel like when I plan a short story I always just write "here is a situation (nothing happens)" or else I try to expand on that situation and I end up with a really complicated plot that blows out to >10,000 words.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:11
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Thranguy posted:Something I've gotten more than a few times in feedback when I try to write action is that everything ends up being too easy for my main characters. How can I fix that? Looking for tips on writing action sequences featuring active and competent characters that can make it feel like they have real, serious opposition and threat, ways to put something in between a character having a problem and them using their skills and abilities to solve it that doesn't feel like stalling for time, that kind of thing. Something that always gets me with action/conflict is this: set up an expectation that something can't happen to the protagonist, then have it happen. The most recent example I've read is from Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun (minor spoilers follow): in this series the hero had a sword called Terminus Est, which is established as being a key part of his character because it represents his profession, it's a rare and badass sword, it frequently saves him from danger, etc. Basically you feel that it's part of him and he will always have it, just like Arthur always has Excalibur, etc. Then in the third book, the sword is destroyed in a climactic battle. Another obvious example would be Jaime Lannisters hand in GoT. But it could be something much smaller, as long as it gives the reader that feeling of "this is worse than I could have imagined".
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Sep 9, 2016 04:02
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As a way of distracting myself while pitching every agent in my genre with a pulse, I'm fine-tuning my next manuscript. I just threw together a first draft of a query and I need people who have no frame of reference whatsoever to beat it up for me and tell me why it's poo poo. Anybody wanna take a crack at it?quote:Jane Doherty wants to quit using heroin, but getting high is her only source of happiness. Her equally-addicted boyfriend Charlie says his life is just as hard as hers, but Jane has trouble believing him until he tells her why. He’s got a stone with the power to warp reality, but he isn’t the only one. There’s a group of people with powers like his, and it’s Charlie’s job to kill them before they can kill him. I'm sure it's got typos and I know the grammar/syntax/voice all needs work, but right now I'm just trying to figure out if the thing makes sense before I rip it up line by line. Please feel free to tell me to eat poo poo in the most constructive way possible.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:23
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My first thought is that sounds kinda boring and it really shouldn't be considering the sequence of events.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:42
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I personally would need several compelling reasons to root for a selfish heroin addict and your blurb has zero.
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Sep 10, 2016 00:09
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HIJK posted:My first thought is that sounds kinda boring and it really shouldn't be considering the sequence of events. bigperm posted:I personally would need several compelling reasons to root for a selfish heroin addict and your blurb has zero. Both good points. The first is (I hope) a function of this being a first pass, as I haven't put any effort into making the thing enticing yet - right now I'm just going for coherent. As for the second point, I can see what you mean. I dumbed down Jane's motivations for the purpose of making them easy to relay in a query, but I can see now that dumbing them down makes her a difficult character to like. I'll work on weaving in some likable characteristics, as well as her reasons for wanting power beyond just wanting a better life.
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Sep 10, 2016 00:40
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Why would she go though all that stuff when she could just do more heroin and Why is her boyfriend the owner of a reality-warping stone and still addicted to heroin and Why is her "brilliant plan" to assume her boyfriend's identity and not kill anybody when it's already his job to kill people, how long could you conceivably stall from doing your job as a member of the Lich Mafia
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Sep 10, 2016 03:20
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Additionally, what's a "target organization" and why does she have to infiltrate it and commit crimes? Note: I'm not actually interested in the answer to this, just in pointing out that it doesn't make sense
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Sep 10, 2016 03:55
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Ironic Twist posted:Why is her "brilliant plan" to assume her boyfriend's identity and not kill anybody when it's already his job to kill people, how long could you conceivably stall from doing your job as a member of the Lich Mafia Djeser posted:Additionally, what's a "target organization" and why does she have to infiltrate it and commit crimes? Both are good questions that I can better clarify in the space of query. Ironic Twist posted:Why would she go though all that stuff when she could just do more heroin These are the ones I'm struggling to answer in such a small space. His is easier to answer: after spending his entire life with the power to be/do whatever he wants, he's decided nothing in life has meaning anymore and getting high is the only experience left that still does anything for him. Her answer is more difficult. She hasn't been using for long and considers herself a 'casual user' who can absolutely quit whenever she wants, she just hasn't found a good reason to. Her thought process is if she gets something like the power her boyfriend has, she'll obviously be able to fill all the gaps in her life that led her to start using in the first place and she won't want to get high anymore. Obviously this is not how heroin actually works and she becomes more focused on using her powers to fuel her addiction, but she doesn't set out to go balls-deep into addiction from the get-go.
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Sep 10, 2016 04:18
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Djeser posted:Additionally, what's a "target organization" and why does she have to infiltrate it and commit crimes? Seconding that this was what confused me most in that summary. I would also like to know why the stone holders have to kill each other... doesn't have to be explained in detail but there should be something? I can't even tell if it's like a Battle Royale type thing where they all have to kill each other, or whether it's just Charlie against an organisation who want to kill him for some reason. "It's Charlie's job to kill them before they kill him" is weird phrasing, because it makes me wonder is it literally his job? Like in the same way that Buffy's 'job' is to kill vampires? Or are you just speaking metaphorically. The mechanics of the whole supernatural system are very vague. 'Stone holders' and 'reality warping' are very generic terms. I can't tell if this is going to be a superhero story, or like an urban fantasy with mythological elements in the modern day, or even something a little bit sci-fi tinged.
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Sep 10, 2016 08:15
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bigperm posted:I personally would need several compelling reasons to root for a selfish heroin addict and your blurb has zero. Yeah. Generally speaking, there are character flaws and there are character flaws. If your character's a heroin junkie or (yes, these are on a different level entirely) sexually attracted to children or sexually assaults people, that poo poo kinda overrides whatever positive qualities you might choose to give them. I've tried reading a novel recently with a first person POV of someone who wasn't even using anymore and it felt like This, the Novel:  Incredibly annoying to read. Yours is an active user and an rear end in a top hat? Instant pass.
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Sep 10, 2016 08:51
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Can the story be preserved without the heroin addiction?
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Sep 10, 2016 13:09
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Can the story be preserved without the heroin addiction? Probably about as well as you can preserve Trainspotting without the heroin addiction, so you be the judge on that. Edit: after giving it some thought, it seems like I have two separate problems: 1) the protagonist is unlikable, and 2) the protagonist is a heroin addict. Right now, id say 1) is an equal failing in both the query and the manuscript. If I want people to empathize with the mc and still keep her as an addict, I need to work twice as hard to make her likable and right now she's not even likable for someone sober. Fortunately, it's my query and my manuscript, so I can actually make those changes to fix that. As for 2), it's a story about addiction. Yes, I could probably change it to something socially acceptable like alcohol, but the problem with doing something socially acceptable is that you then end up with another group of people who look at it and say 'lol alcoholism isn't a problem'. Like, for example, how everyone in gbs is an alcoholic and seems pretty goddamned good with it. Because heroin isn't socially acceptable, it's something everyone can look at and say 'this is a bad thing and her life cannot continue down this path', which is the point. At the end of the day, addiction stories shouldn't be about the drug itself, but why the person is using. If you use something like alcohol or pot - something everybody is cool with - then you run the risk of readers thinking not 'can she quit' but 'does she even need to?' FormerPoster fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 15:58
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I think the thing is just with the blurb as written, it seems like you've got two stories going on - the fantasy/magical stuff, and the heroin addiction stuff, and it kind of clashes tonally. I'm assuming in the full story it ties together better, but that's not really coming across in the description. If you can explain WHY those two aspects are inseparable, it would probably work better.
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Sep 10, 2016 17:02
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Naerasa posted:Probably about as well as you can preserve Trainspotting without the heroin addiction, so you be the judge on that. How many people who want a story about addiction reach for the fantasy shelf? How many people who want a fantasy want a story about addiction? Do you watch Trainspotting and think to yourself "What this story needs is some saturday morning magic antics," or Stephen Universe and think "This show needs more heroin," These market considerations are what the agents and publishers have in mind. You'll be shopping a deeply, deeply niche combo to people who are looking for broad appeal. Details like the MC not being likable, agents being personally turned off by heroin, publishers who won't touch it on principle - those are all serious challenges too. Even if the book is brilliant, taking a premise like this on the query trail would be like playing an already difficult game on extra extra extra extra hard mode. That's not to say it's impossible, but it's definitely a hard sell for a debut.
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Sep 10, 2016 17:13
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i think:quote:Jane Doherty wants to quit using heroin, but getting high is her only source of happiness. is the most immediate problem line, because it makes her prima facie unlikable just for being a junkie. Maybe you could make it clearer that she's combating the addiction, and she's trying as hard as she can to not get high. That way you at least get a protagonist who tries rather than "lol o well time 2 get high" like what is presented right now. the sudden "bf has a stone" thing is also kinda jarring so maybe make the big focus the stone battles thing?
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Sep 10, 2016 17:17
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Naerasa posted:Probably about as well as you can preserve Trainspotting without the heroin addiction, so you be the judge on that. I'm not sure "likable" is what you should aim for. "Sympathetic" would work better. You don't necessarily need to like a protagonist to be sympathetic to them and empathize with their struggles. You can think "wow, I feel so sorry for this person" and "geez what a piece of poo poo" at the same time. So there's nothing wrong with having a heroin addict for a protagonist, but it does mean you have to work to make the audience care about them, and in the case of query letter, assure the agent that yes, there are many disparate elements here, but that it's still an engaging read. For what it's worth I'd be interested in reading something like this, so your cause is not lost. It just requires polish. And also: The Saddest Rhino posted:i think: If all she has going in her life is her addiction, than that's also a hard sell because it makes her seem one dimensional. So when writing your query letter, make sure you communicate that she has a background and struggles that aren't totally about her addiction, like her mother's death suddenly bringing her back to reality, or her trying to go back to school, or something like that. That makes her more engaging and it gives her an arc to complete (maybe with the help of the paranormal advantages present in her life.) HIJK fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 17:20
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Danknificent posted:How many people who want a story about addiction reach for the fantasy shelf? How many people who want a fantasy want a story about addiction? Do you watch Trainspotting and think to yourself "What this story needs is some saturday morning magic antics," or Stephen Universe and think "This show needs more heroin," These are all good points. On the other hand, I already don't have an agent and I definitely won't get one by not putting the book out there, so the worst case scenario is that I shop it around, it doesn't sell, and I start over again with a new book. That's my plan regardless, so it doesn't much matter if I shove this book to the side now or if I put the extra three months of work into polishing it and shopping it around. At the end of the day, I'm 29 years old; I can spare a couple months of my life to trip over myself on this and get another round of practice querying and handling rejection. I won't be any worse off for trying, and I highly doubt agents will remember passing on this project in a year when I try and shop something new. HIJK posted:I'm not sure "likable" is what you should aim for. "Sympathetic" would work better. You don't necessarily need to like a protagonist to be sympathetic to them and empathize with their struggles. You can think "wow, I feel so sorry for this person" and "geez what a piece of poo poo" at the same time. So there's nothing wrong with having a heroin addict for a protagonist, but it does mean you have to work to make the audience care about them, and in the case of query letter, assure the agent that yes, there are many disparate elements here, but that it's still an engaging read. More good points. So the way the stone/magic stuff ties into her addiction is, she got addicted to drugs after her parents died from radiation due to fallout from a recent war. When Charlie (the boyfriend) tells Jane about his powers, he says 'oh and the other people who have powers like mine are the children of the people who started the war that killed your parents, and they did it for fun and profit'. So now she's got the opportunity to get close to these people and avenge her family, but she gets to know them and figures out they're just as hosed up as she is, and she feels guilty because she can't kill them and it makes her that much more vulnerable to seeing getting high as the only means of escape. FormerPoster fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 17:36
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So it's junkie fiction, urban fantasy and post-apocalyptic? Will there be spaceships as well?
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Sep 10, 2016 17:58
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Megazver posted:So it's junkie fiction, urban fantasy and post-apocalyptic? Will there be spaceships as well? You do know you can use a nuclear bomb without it being the apocalypse, right? America's already done it twice before.
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Sep 10, 2016 18:03
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Naerasa posted:You do know you can use a nuclear bomb without it being the apocalypse, right? America's already done it twice before. So just urban fantasy and near future scifi, gotcha.
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Sep 10, 2016 18:04
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Megazver posted:So it's junkie fiction, urban fantasy and post-apocalyptic? Will there be spaceships as well? Mmm yes, the idea of there being drug use in the aftermath of a nuclear war is completely ridiculous. Some of the criticisms I'm seeing here are pretty stupid TBH.
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Sep 10, 2016 18:06
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Megazver posted:So just urban fantasy and near future scifi, gotcha. To me, scifi implies the writer has an understanding of science, but my high school's insistence on me taking hydrology instead of bio insures I do not. Chairchucker posted:Mmm yes, the idea of there being drug use in the aftermath of a nuclear war is completely ridiculous. Some of it is, but I DID tell people to poo poo on me, so I'm thinking this is working as intended. Regardless, I'm seeing a lot of the pitfalls I need to avoid/stuff I need to clarify, so I'd call this whole thing a net win. Even if I do need to pull on my dogs mouth to make it looks like hes saying 'I love you' so I feel better...
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Sep 10, 2016 18:08
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Chairchucker posted:Mmm yes, the idea of there being drug use in the aftermath of a nuclear war is completely ridiculous. Aftermath of a nuclear war... and also magic wish-granting stones! Mixing What Ifs like that is not a great idea. If you've got an alien invasion AND sexy vampires or you're ripping off the Martian and then the magical ponies waltz in and they're not a hallucination, you're either going full bizarro and good luck to you my friend or you've hosed up somewhere. The junkie protagonist is just a turd cherry on top.
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Sep 10, 2016 18:27
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Holy poo poo, and here I thought I'd have to get published to have people hate my work this much. This is like all the fun of a bad review with none of the drudgery that comes with having a career behind it.
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Sep 10, 2016 18:38
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I apologize. I get a little carried away when people start arguing. But, uh, I do suggest developing more ideas.
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Sep 10, 2016 18:58
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you've gotten good reviews on the actual book, which probably means that it's decent and your blurb just loving sucks. I'd minimize the mentions of the heroin stuff, and don't over-explain it. everybody knows what a junkie is. Hit your main fantasy plot and just describe him as a junkie or something. "A junkie with magical powers tries to keep his girlfriend from stealing his magic rock." or whatever.
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Sep 10, 2016 19:00
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Heroin addict makes me way more interested, not less, and I think agents will react the same way. If you pull it off, mixing a real and urgent character flaw like addition with the fantastic is a great play. I didn't like Thomas Covenant but 'a leper passes into a fantasy world' is a thousand times more interesting than 'not a leper does the same thing.' Remember that small critique groups can get hung up on an issue and blow it way up 
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Sep 10, 2016 19:08
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Your query is pretty loving awesome as is. "A heroin junkie tries to trick her boyfriend into giving up his reality-warping stone so she can escape into her own dreams - but keeping the stone forces her to make choices that drive her even deeper into addiction.' That's great! The supernatural ability to warp reality is a perfect allegorical twin for drug addiction. Protagonists don't have to be likable or sympathetic, just compelling. Walter White and Tony Soprano are loving awful people. So is Pablo Escobar!
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Sep 10, 2016 19:15
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Naerasa posted:Holy poo poo, and here I thought I'd have to get published to have people hate my work this much. This is like all the fun of a bad review with none of the drudgery that comes with having a career behind it. naw it's not hate it's just goons gooning. I was writing a big long post, but actually just listen to Battuta. I don't feel especially compelled by the query because the reality-warping stones sound like boilerplate Mcguffins, but maybe they are more unique than your pitch makes them sound.
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Sep 10, 2016 20:08
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