twoday posted:

This looks great. Did you find that link as a reference somewhere? I know a little bit of Italian and I would like to try reading it but I don't feel like tracking down a book from 1892.

twoday posted:

This looks great. Did you find that link as a reference somewhere? I know a little bit of Italian and I would like to try reading it but I don't feel like tracking down a book from 1892.

quote:

The Azores archipelago began to appear on portolan charts during the 14th century, well before its official discovery date. The first map to depict the Azores was the Medici Atlas (1351). Its depiction was subsequently replicated in the Pizzigani brothers map of 1367, the Catalan Atlas (1375), the Pinelli–Walckenaer Atlas (1384), the Corbitis Atlas (c. 1385–1410), the charts of Guillem Soler (1380, 1385), Mecia de Viladestes (1413) and others. They are also listed in the Libro del Conoscimiento (c. 1380).

...

The source of this information is a mystery. They could simply derived from pure legend, possibly of Andalusian Arab origin e.g. al-Idrisi speaks of an Atlantic island of wild goats (the Caprera?) and another of "cormorants", a scavenger bird (the "sea crows" of Corvis Marinis?) But outside their erroneous axis tilt, the Azores do seem clustered with reasonable accuracy. From this cartographic record, there seems little doubt that both Madeira and the Azores were discovered, or at least sighted, in the 14th century, well before their official discovery dates.

One (unproven) hypothesis is that the Azores were discovered in the course of a 1341 mapping expedition to the Canary Islands, sponsored by King Afonso IV of Portugal and commanded by the Florentine Angiolino del Tegghia de Corbizzi and the Genoese Nicoloso da Recco. Although not quite described in the 1341 report, Madeira and the Azores might nonetheless have been seen from a distance on the expedition's return via a long sailing arc (volta do mar) from the Canary islands. Even if not discovered by the 1341 mapping expedition itself, the islands may have been found by any of the numerous Majorcan expeditions that were launched into the Atlantic Ocean in the aftermath, destined for slaving runs on the newly mapped Canary islands. Nonetheless, regardless of who sighted them in the 14th century, there seems to have been no follow-up until the 15th century.

Squalid posted:

Looking briefly at that guy's research on megaliths it seems there's uh a bit of stretching going on, some of those "megaliths" look remarkably like regular ol' rocks.

Phlegmish posted:

Yeah, I had the same thought when looking at those 'pyramids'. I feel like if the Azores had been colonized long enough for that kind of structure to be built, there would be other, more conclusive signs of a human presence.

Squalid posted:

If there had been an early colonization and subsequent isolation you'd expect to see some genetic evidence among the populations of human mutualists or odd accounts from the first recorded visitors of abundant goats or sheep.

quote:

possibly of Andalusian Arab origin e.g. al-Idrisi speaks of an Atlantic island of wild goats

twoday posted:

What? These Azorean pyramids?







These Azorean pyramids which bear a remarkable resemblance to ancient structures on the Canary Islands (which are known to have been populated since ancient time)such as this one?



I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here, but if you think that these structures were produced since the arrival of the Portuguese in the 15th century, I'd like to hear an explanation for why the Portuguese colonists would have built dozens of these structures.

Shazback posted:

Given the size of those structures, they would have each required significant time (i.e. more than a few days) and workforce (i.e. several dozen men). This means there would be camps with according traces of settlement on the Azores near these structures, and finding things appropriate for a given era would be relatively uncommon : pottery fragments, rope, leather, silex shards, tools... Each of these could be pretty easily analysed to narrow down the possible date during which the settlement was established.

Beyond that, these camps would have most likely contributed to spreading cultivars and livestock species from either neighboring islands or the origin locale of the journey. As such, it would be surprising for one island to have goats, another rabbits (to such an extent that these are considered exceptional enough to name the island after them) and yet these animals not have been spread throughout the Azores by the population that built these structures.

Without being a specialist on these structures, wouldn't it be possible that they are simply low-cost watchtowers or lighthouses? These could have been built by the Portuguese settlers as they lacked mortar and other materials to make taller structures with less "footprint", either including those on the Canary islands or as an imitation of them.

Ratpick posted:

A stupid map, but here you go:

Titus Sardonicus posted:

Is there a source that can explain the rationale for these names? I really need to know how, among other things, Bulgaria becomes Insurance + Profit Ya or Portugal is Grapetooth.

Titus Sardonicus posted:

Is there a source that can explain the rationale for these names? I really need to know how, among other things, Bulgaria becomes Insurance + Profit Ya or Portugal is Grapetooth.

quote:

The inconsistencies you pointed out are due to the fact that the countries mentioned–England, Germany and France (along with the U.S., by the way)–were the nations that almost split up China during the height of European imperialism in the late 19th century. As a result, when the Chinese were modernizing the Mandarin language wholesale sometime in the early 20th century, they were less concerned with phonetic spelling and more with double-meaning when naming these powerful nations they badly sought to emulate (or so that’s my take on why the names came out as they did).

Hence, England = Yingguo (which sounds a lot like “England” in Mandarin), which literally means “brave land” or “hero land” (and in some contexts, “flower land”). This may stem from the fact that England was the source of all modern inventions back in the 19th century and was the nation that was “brave” enough to open up China to the West, and modernity.

On the other hand, France = Faguo (which sounds a lot like “France” in Mandarin). France was known as “law land” since China opted to go with the civil law system instead of the common law system prevalent in England and the U.S. This is due to Chinese preference for law codes, which were prevalent throughout the historical dynasties, and traditional Chinese distrust of judges and litigation (which tend to play a more influential role in the common law system). The civil law system privileges law codes over judges, so that’s why China chose that system. The origins of the civil system come from France, hence why France became the “land of law” in Chinese eyes.

Germany = Deguo (which echoes “Deutschland” in Mandarin). The character for “de” means “morality” in Mandarin, hence why Germany is “moral land”. This may stem from the fact that the most famous European philosophers of the 19th century were mostly German, and maybe some Chinese scholars were so impressed by the philosophical inquiries emanating from Germany at that time that they decided to name the whole land “moral land”. That’s just a guess on my part.

U.S. = Meiguo (which echoes “America” in Mandarin), which means “beautiful land”. This may stem from the fact that the U.S. was the #1 destination for Chinese emigrants seeking to leave China throughout the mid-19th century. Tall tales trickling back from these Chinese emigrants, that the U.S. was the “land of gold” (mostly because of the California gold rush of 1849, among other events), probably helped cement the U.S.’s reputation as a “land of beauty” in Chinese eyes. Hence why the name stuck. But this is conjecture on my part.

All other European nations, on the other hand, have phonetic names that try as best as possible within the confines of the Chinese language to emulate the native names of these nations.

mcustic posted:

More discussion here:
https://haonowshaokao.com/2013/04/25/chinese-map-of-europe/

galagazombie posted:

You would think that being an authoritarian state that China could instead force everyone to use a sensible writing system based on sounds that allowed them to do simple tasks like add new words. Korea did it, Japan kinda did it (Though they kept the old way too) so it's not like they don't know exactly how they could get it done.

Squalid posted:

mcustic posted:

More discussion here:
https://haonowshaokao.com/2013/04/25/chinese-map-of-europe/

Grand Fromage posted:

I don't know what to tell you if you think Korean and Japanese can write sounds outside their language with their writing system. Korean may have an alphabet but the rules mean it garbles foreign words just as badly as Chinese does. Sprite in Korean turns into Seupeuraiteu, five syllables.

Koramei posted:

most people aren't really willing to engage with this stuff unless it's something like a tortilla that has a funny rule that's simple to memorize.

Grand Fromage posted:

I was always curious where you lived in Korea, your experiences have been somewhat different than mine but I didn't live in Seoul. I never heard anyone say Sprite like that. It's not like they pause between each syllable but they're distinct--my region was Gyeongsang accent, though.

Llama is an example of the change, since English used to Anglicize the pronunciations a lot more than it does now. And in my experience British English still does while modern American English at least tries to keep something resembling the original sound.

Koramei posted:

Bucheon, only for a month though and I wasn't teaching English so I confess my memories of the place are a lot rosier than your average former expat.

Koramei posted:

And yeah I'm probably overstating it a little, they don't say it with a totally smooth sp sound like a native English speaker can do, but likewise I seldom heard the stereotypical "Asians can't say a consonant without adding a vowel to the end" thing. I don't think it's remotely comparable with the Chinese way where I'm assuming they say it like "shi pai te" or some poo poo though, Koreanized English is generally at least sort of intelligible to an English speaker. About as much as how most Americans say stuff like croissant or Illinois anyway.

Koramei posted:

Also what do you mean with llama? I thought in Spanish it uses a y sound right? I've only heard that from a handful of Americans. My Spanish is completely trash though so maybe that was a terrible example by me.

Grand Fromage posted:

I honestly don't know much about Spanish or if llama is even a Spanish word, it could be Inca and pronounced correctly. It's just that English used to anglicize the pronunciation of loanwords all the time and tends not to do that so much anymore.

Grand Fromage posted:

Korean has the weird situation of using an alphabet, but with extremely strict rules about how you can write the syllables which prevent you from writing consonant clusters like sch or str.

I think the oddest situation is Japanese has katakana which is specifically for writing loanwords, but it's still a syllabary so it can't write them accurately. I am guessing that started when the only other languages they had any real contact with were Chinese and Korean, since all three of them have the same basic way of constructing syllables.

Zohar posted:

Hungarian mangles loanwords to fit into its own fairly rigid pronunciation system despite being in Latin script, thus image was borrowed as imidzs, software becomes szoftver etc. So not necessarily a script thing.

Pakled posted:

Kurtofan posted:

Leghorn is the superior name.

Pakled posted:

Albino Squirrel posted:

A map of English people loving up foreign languages:



Livorno isn't even that hard to say!

Pakled posted:

A Buttery Pastry posted:

The real linguistic crime is English-speakers pronouncing Copenhagen with a German accent, in the belief that this is the native pronunciation.

doverhog posted:

The correct pronunciation being Kööpenhamina ofc.