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A 50S RAYGUN posted:this would be mind numbingly boring and coincidentally was also why gw2 was mind numbingly boring gw2 had fun combat, just really bad encounter & dungeon design and a terrible model for expansion
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Sep 14, 2016 22:09
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SheepNameKiller posted:gw2 had fun combat, just really bad encounter & dungeon design and a terrible model for expansion Except, at least when I was play right around launch, every patch seemed shift mechanics so much you weapon choice/builds seemed to shift in mechanical usefulness it was a lottery if you were actually going to be effective next patch or if you needed to go back and grind out more dungeon tokens to get different weapons. And how they handled debuffs/dot stacks on enemies was really hosed up and they kept trying to fix it and made it borked in a different way every attempt to fix anything/
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Sep 14, 2016 22:15
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we will never agree on what makes a combat system enjoyable if you found gw2's combat fun.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:15
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CP is the biggest hurdle, because you want to have enough for Rath's rotation (437 after food). If you have the CP, you can reliably do the combines as long as you have the minimum craftsmanship and control to start it. It's possible to do starred combines with less CP, for example by doing your Rapid Synths without Steady Hand up, or by gambling that you'll get a Tricks of the Trade to use to have the CP to do a Great Strides. It's not reliable though, and I've only done it on subcombines where I could live with NQ.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:18
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SheepNameKiller posted:I feel sort of conflicted about this one - it's definitely bad for the mass market but it's fun playing BLM and remembering all the systems and seeing those big numbers materialize as a result I feel like DRG could cut half the damage skills honestly.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:27
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:we will never agree on what makes a combat system enjoyable if you found gw2's combat fun. I didn't. Guild Wars 2 was overall a complete disappointment for me. However, GW1 is one of my favorite games of all time.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:28
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I think that, while one bar is probably too few/simple, the bigger problem in FFXIV is the number of unnecessary buttons is massive. Take Dragoon, for example. Without combo going, there's No reason to use any of DRG's eight move combo package besides True Thrust (DPS starter) or Impulse Drive (debuff starter) because the other moves have less potency and none of their special effects outside their combo. Likewise, once you get say the True Thrust combo going, you don't want to go back and hit True Thrust instead of the next move because you're losing damage and gaining nothing. There's no reason these two combos cannot be condensed into two buttons that start as True Thrust and Impulse Drive and turn into the next stage of their combo on each press for as long as the combo window is active. As for the last two combo parts, the Blood of the Dragon finishers, they come up when you finish one combo and their only difference is whether you need to be on the back or side for extra potency. Even if you don't want to combo these with the other two buttons- since you only get them when BotD is running- you can still reduce both combat complexity and got at space by combining both Enders into one button. Hell, if you want to keep positionals important, you can make the combined finisher do different things based on if you're on the front, sides, or back. Adding more play to a move that otherwise only exists because 'hey, more damage' while also simplifying it in both play and in hotbar space. There, we've trimmed five buttons off the DRG hotbar and gave it MORE interesting bits while also making it easier to handle. And DRG is already considered one of the simplest DPS jobs besides BLM- think of the Monks or the Machinists! (My Machinist hotbars are a crime against man and God, filling 3 entire bars and spilling into a 4th for situational stuff like Dex pots or when I'd rather use Spread Shot over Grenade Shot like Leveling Dungeons.) Mr. Locke fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Sep 14, 2016 |
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Sep 14, 2016 22:30
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:we will never agree on what makes a combat system enjoyable if you found gw2's combat fun. I pretty much agree. If the class simplification that's coming in 4.0 drops me below 24 buttons I will be moderately disappointed, probably, based on my lack of enjoyment of other games with small hotbars.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:30
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I feel like Ninja is alright, I can pretty much do most of the needed actions on the 1st crossbar plus the trigger 8 bar.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:36
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:we will never agree on what makes a combat system enjoyable if you found gw2's combat fun. I liked it 
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Sep 14, 2016 22:37
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Failboattootoot posted:I pretty much agree. If the class simplification that's coming in 4.0 drops me below 24 buttons I will be moderately disappointed, probably, based on my lack of enjoyment of other games with small hotbars. My personal issue with the amount of buttons is that I don't feel particularly powerful or engaged by them (at least as a DRG). It's just a bunch of buttons for no real reason. I'm pretty sure there are people who enjoy it but I particularly don't - I'd rather have more buttons being utilitarian. I wouldn't mind them keeping 24 buttons or more, I have 42 keybinds as a Feral Druid and I don't feel as bothered by them than I felt by my keybinds as a Dragoon.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:38
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good news you probably have like six keybinds as a feral Druid now
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Sep 14, 2016 22:40
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There really doesn't need to be as many buttons as there are. The impulse drive button should become disembowel if the combo is active, and then chaos thrust once you've hit twice. Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust are weird and it wouldn't be the end of the world if they had to be separate buttons but could be wrapped in without too much effort. Branching combos would be kind of weird, but the easiest solution would be to have buttons for each combo ender (so pressing storm's path three times does heavy swing->main->storm's path, and the butcher's block button will update on heavy swing but give up when it realizes you pressed maim next). Monks are kinda hosed though. I guess there could be three buttons for the flank, rear, and AoE buttons which change based on your stance.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:42
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While I would prefer less, I don't think any class should have more than 20 abilities. If it does, then I think there's room to trim abilities the gently caress out. Not to mention the abilities that are just loving worthless.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:46
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:good news you probably have like six keybinds as a feral Druid now How come?
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Sep 14, 2016 22:51
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playing mmos in general is already extremely low in terms of mechanical engagement. when you start paring down abilities you not only make the game less mechanically interesting, you start removing the decision making elements.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:54
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*Great awesome epic dragon battle on the steps of faith* "YEAH TIME TO KICK NIDHOGG'S rear end" *Ilevel 205 required" "Goddamnit"
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Sep 14, 2016 22:56
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Elentor posted:How come? legion absolutely slaughtered class complexity. I'm not sure if feral got neutered or not but I stopped paying attention when blood got changed to 'spam your resource gen until you can ds'
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Sep 14, 2016 22:57
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They really need to reexamine the HW DRG skills because Wheeling Thrust is pure garbage and serves no purpose beyond needlessly complicating the rotation.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:57
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Speaking on the hot bars, I've only really played whm so maybe it's different with dps and tanks but right now my lvl60 whm has every ability out and accessible on three hot bars. Most of them are used on every instance. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that don't get used much are Stone, Stone II, and repose. Even fluid aura gets popped at least twice even if it's just for dps on a boss.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:05
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Tae posted:I feel like Ninja is alright, I can pretty much do most of the needed actions on the 1st crossbar plus the trigger 8 bar. I agree, I really like the current nin playstyle. But nin got 2 utility skills, 2 off-gcd skills that were easily worked into their rotation, and 1 combo ender that actually makes your life easier so it's a bit of an outlier compared to everyone else. Also I really hate the idea of putting entire combo's into one button. At that point you're just mashing 1 or 2 once you've finished your opener and while that shouldn't really be much of a difference, it is to me (ask me about macroing my entire rotation to 1 button in Rifts). Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Sep 14, 2016 |
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Sep 14, 2016 23:05
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I don't really think that there's a problem with the number of abilities or anything, it's more a matter of how the bars and abilities are presented. As said, the DRG stuff could take 8 abilities and turn them into two buttons. Also, as someone who plays healer a lot, I think my bars would be much simplified if the first bar just automatically changed when I went into Cleric Stance (like priest going into Shadowform in WoW). If they made it so casting a heal removed you from Cleric Stance automatically, it'd also probably convince more healers to try out DPS'ing. I've met more than a couple people who are "scared" to use Cleric Stance because they're afraid to double toggle it when they want to turn it off.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:14
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HenryEx posted:I guess it's time to craft some Seafood Stew, then. Keep in mind that each synthesis produces three meals now.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:16
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ruta posted:I don't really think that there's a problem with the number of abilities or anything, it's more a matter of how the bars and abilities are presented. As said, the DRG stuff could take 8 abilities and turn them into two buttons. Also, as someone who plays healer a lot, I think my bars would be much simplified if the first bar just automatically changed when I went into Cleric Stance (like priest going into Shadowform in WoW). If they made it so casting a heal removed you from Cleric Stance automatically, it'd also probably convince more healers to try out DPS'ing. I've met more than a couple people who are "scared" to use Cleric Stance because they're afraid to double toggle it when they want to turn it off. Oh man, that'd be a huge convenience if it just auto-toggled off provided it wasn't on cooldown. There's still plenty of skill involved thanks to judging when it is safe to jump into stance in the first place and it'd help fumble-fingers like myself.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:16
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ruta posted:I think my bars would be much simplified if the first bar just automatically changed when I went into Cleric Stance (like priest going into Shadowform in WoW). This would be a bad rear end idea. Fake edit: I can macro this right?
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Sep 14, 2016 23:18
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Volume posted:This would be a bad rear end idea. Yes, but macros are inherently problematic because they don't buffer. You also potentially run the risk of your hotbars and current state being desynced.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:20
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ruta posted:I don't really think that there's a problem with the number of abilities or anything, it's more a matter of how the bars and abilities are presented. As said, the DRG stuff could take 8 abilities and turn them into two buttons. Also, as someone who plays healer a lot, I think my bars would be much simplified if the first bar just automatically changed when I went into Cleric Stance (like priest going into Shadowform in WoW). If they made it so casting a heal removed you from Cleric Stance automatically, it'd also probably convince more healers to try out DPS'ing. I've met more than a couple people who are "scared" to use Cleric Stance because they're afraid to double toggle it when they want to turn it off. Alternatively they could just get rid of cleric stance and have all healer spells scale with mind. Ninja is also really loving stupid and perhaps the worst example of needless complexity. Why do you have to jam four button presses into a 2 second GCD to do one thing? Just get rid of mudras and make all the jutsus have a shared cooldown.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:22
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Mudra's own.  Also there are 7 ninjutsus I don't have the space for all those buttons!!!
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Sep 14, 2016 23:25
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AngusPodgorny posted:CP is the biggest hurdle, because you want to have enough for Rath's rotation (437 after food). If you have the CP, you can reliably do the combines as long as you have the minimum craftsmanship and control to start it. Stop using the Rapid Synth rotation. With Maker's Mark there's no reason to use it anymore.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:27
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Failboattootoot posted:Mudra's own. You only use 3, maybe 4 of them regularly though.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:30
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Even BLM, the class with probably the least buttons to press, has abilities that are pretty much useless like Freeze. Thundercloud should just proc a Thun3 when you use it, since you're never, ever hardcasting Thun3. Hell, just remove T3 entirely and change the effect of Thundercloud to read that the debuff resets to 24 instead of 18 seconds (or whatever T3 vs T1 is). Manawall and Manaward could easily be 1 ability, I almost always pop them both at the same time, especially since SE is so hit-or-miss as far as what looks like physical or magic damage vs. what actually is phys or mag damage.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:35
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Fister Roboto posted:You only use 3, maybe 4 of them regularly though. If you are a lovely ninja maybe. The only 2 you could generically cut are fuma and hyoton but you need fuma for when you get sync'd into certain level ranges and hyoton is a must in pvp.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:37
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As it stands, the only way I really see SE being able to ever raise the level cap again is by making all the 61-70 abilities be added effects or upgrades to existing ones, unless they streamline abilities quite a bit.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:37
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:legion absolutely slaughtered class complexity. I'm not sure if feral got neutered or not but I stopped paying attention when blood got changed to 'spam your resource gen until you can ds' I mean 42 keybinds post-legion. There was a lot more before, yes, but I don't mind the cut. Enough as it is.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:39
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Failboattootoot posted:If you are a lovely ninja maybe. The only 2 you could generically cut are fuma and hyoton but you need fuma for when you get sync'd into certain level ranges and hyoton is a must in pvp. If hyoton is only useful in pvp then it should be a pvp skill. And they could just give you raiton at 30 if they got rid of mudras.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:41
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Failboattootoot posted:Mudra's own. bunny hat is just one ninjutsu though???
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Sep 14, 2016 23:43
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Fister Roboto posted:If hyoton is only useful in pvp then it should be a pvp skill. And they could just give you raiton at 30 if they got rid of mudras. Sure but that's still 5 buttons vs. 4 currently so it isn't really an improvement and this all ignores that I think mudra's are fun to do and are a big part of why I've been a nin since they were released and never gone back to drg.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:48
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Let me take this time to talk about FFXI's systems which I would say were superior to FFXIV but at the same time worse. XI had a lot of different systems going, especially compared to XIV. XIV's jobs are dependent on the weapons you equip; in XI, you could equip different weapons for a job in certain cases, and each weapon came with its own weapon skills independent of our job lvl. Examples being Monks could do hand to hand or polearm, DRKs could do scythe and great sword. Each job had ratings per weapon. Counterpoint -- diversity became irrelevant since you would equip the best rated weapon for your job. You weren't going to see a WAR without a great axe or Monk without a hand to hand. XI attributes were independent and required you to lvl them. If you wanted to learn the next weapon skill, you had hit mobs to increase your weapon skill by .1 or .2 increments. Better blocking required you to get hit. A lot. Same with evasion, etc. Speaking of fighting, the battle system was the opposite of what we play not because it revolved around the auto attack system. The biggest thing about FFXI was the job/subjob system. You buffed your main job by added another as a subjob, which meant that you had all the traits and abilities up the half the lvl of the main job, so if your Monk was lvl 30 your WAR subjob was lvl 15, so you had the traits and abilities of WAR up to lvl 15. Unfortunately, while this concept personally was great, the reality was it was its own worst enemy because the only real option you had was to optimize your main job, so you'd go with the optimized subjob and only that. But man, I can't help but talk about the job/subjob system. If you're lvling Monk, you know to lvl WAR first so that you'd go MNK/WAR since WAR had the Double Attack trait, which along with Monk's Counter and Kick Attacks traits meant you were potentially punching/kicking all the drat time. Ninja was used by a lot of jobs for the longest time because it had the coveted Dual Wield trait; I honestly don't remember Beastmaster having any other subjob other than NIN, and Dancer for the longest time until a update gave it the Dual Wield trait. Sorry for the FFXI, but I saw the opportunity to do so with the current discussion.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:49
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Failboattootoot posted:Sure but that's still 5 buttons vs. 4 currently so it isn't really an improvement and this all ignores that I think mudra's are fun to do and are a big part of why I've been a nin since they were released and never gone back to drg. Why do you think they're fun?
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Sep 14, 2016 23:51
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I really do like darting and weaving mudras for my ninja, honestly. It might not be the ideal method for simple and reliable damage, but it's fun and gives the job a legitimate feel to it.Failboattootoot posted:I agree, I really like the current nin playstyle. But nin got 2 utility skills, 2 off-gcd skills that were easily worked into their rotation, and 1 combo ender that actually makes your life easier so it's a bit of an outlier compared to everyone else. Yeah, I feel that primarily HW served to just solidify Ninja's role as a good support damage dealer while adding the quality of life of huton extension to Armor Crush. People say MNK doesn't change much between 2.0 and HW... Ninja is similar in that it plays mostly the same, but with the QoL of Armor Crush. One simple ability that can relieve much annoyance. Duality and Dream Within a Dream are also nice, but I think SE could stand to adjust them for the better. I'm fine where Ninja is right now, in any case. The increase to our area attack damage was a great thing and was my primary concern with the job.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:54
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