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Race Realists posted:is it cool if I crosspost this from the DE thread? How does a movement of angry white racists try to reach out to other races, anyway? Outline the many ways they are inferior to white men and owe them everything, expecting the to bow before this "truth"?
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Sep 17, 2016 03:38
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Geostomp posted:How does a movement of angry white racists try to reach out to other races, anyway? Outline the many ways they are inferior to white men and owe them everything, expecting the to bow before this "truth"? they arent racist and they dont hate they just want the right to exist and to preserve their own culture  about an hour and 50 minutes into the video myself, and its a loving bummer seeing these relatively young people get caught up into this. they mention that the 4chan /pol/ shitposters dont represent them
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Sep 17, 2016 04:42
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Would you go so far as to say the would like to secure this future for their white children.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:50
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Geostomp posted:How does a movement of angry white racists try to reach out to other races, anyway? Outline the many ways they are inferior to white men and owe them everything, expecting the to bow before this "truth"? There's some thought among the far right that, in theory, black people, Muslims, etc are fine, as long as they live in their own countries completely cut off from the rest of the world. The idea being that, while not all cultures are equal (because whites are obviously superior), multiculturalism is worse than any one race living on its own, so it's harmless if all the
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Sep 17, 2016 04:54
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Pakled posted:There's some thought among the far right that, in theory, black people, Muslims, etc are fine, as long as they live in their own countries completely cut off from the rest of the world. The idea being that, while not all cultures are equal (because whites are obviously superior), multiculturalism is worse than any one race living on its own, so it's harmless if all the EAST ASIAN culture is superior because iq scores and not because i furiously jerk it to anime or anything also THOSE PEOPLE are the real racists all bullshitting aside, as more and more immigrants come into europe and as "whites" become a minority, as more alt-right's manage to get into positions of power, i have a feeling im going to start seeing poo poo that i thought id never see come back in my lifetime. its loving chilling to think about BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 05:20
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Race Realists posted:all bullshitting aside, as more and more immigrants come into europe and as "whites" become a minority, as more alt-right's manage to get into positions of power, i have a feeling im going to start seeing poo poo that i thought id never see come back in my lifetime. Uh... What's the deal with people constantly using completely false right-wing propaganda to make bizzare technically-not-right-wing points? You are vastly, vaaaaastly overestimating immigration to Europe.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:51
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So what happens to mixed-race people in this alt-right fantasy scenario? Do they get chopped into proportionate pieces which are mailed to their respective ethno-states, or... actually, I have a feeling it's something that leads to the same result.
Polybius91 fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 06:48
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Polybius91 posted:So what happens to mixed-race people in this alt-right fantasy scenario? Do they get chopped int proportionate pieces which are mailed to their respective ethno-states, or... actually, I have a feeling it's something that leads to the same result. I presume you've heard of the one-drop rule.
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Sep 17, 2016 06:51
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Polybius91 posted:So what happens to mixed-race people in this alt-right fantasy scenario? Do they get chopped into proportionate pieces which are mailed to their respective ethno-states, or... actually, I have a feeling it's something that leads to the same result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil_test_(South_Africa)
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Sep 17, 2016 07:06
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This is the most appalling and flat out dumbest racial test I've ever read about. What degrading bulltshit.
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Sep 17, 2016 07:45
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Pakled posted:There's some thought among the far right that, in theory, black people, Muslims, etc are fine, as long as they live in their own countries completely cut off from the rest of the world. The idea being that, while not all cultures are equal (because whites are obviously superior), multiculturalism is worse than any one race living on its own, so it's harmless if all the Ah. They're okay with filthy subhumans existing so long as they go far away and leave the place they live for them alone. I don't suppose they go for the Back to Europe movement so Native Americans can have their homeland, do they?
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Sep 17, 2016 07:49
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Geostomp posted:Ah. They're okay with filthy subhumans existing so long as they go far away and leave the place they live for them alone. I don't suppose they go for the Back to Europe movement so Native Americans can have their homeland, do they? Their ancestors build this country It's theirs by birthright! my dad posted:Uh... What's the deal with people constantly using completely false right-wing propaganda to make bizzare technically-not-right-wing points? You are vastly, vaaaaastly overestimating immigration to Europe. I keep think back to a few years ago when the Voting Rights Act got gutted. Now all I see is widespread accounts of voter suppression in mostly southern rural areas in America I try my level best not to make slippery slope arguments, but it's hard not to go  over all this sometimes
BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 20:33
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Pakled posted:There's some thought among the far right that, in theory, black people, Muslims, etc are fine, as long as they live in their own countries completely cut off from the rest of the world. The idea being that, while not all cultures are equal (because whites are obviously superior), multiculturalism is worse than any one race living on its own, so it's harmless if all the Crossposting from UKMT:  That's the leader of the American Nazi Party attending a conference where Malcolm X was speaking, because they agreed with him.
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Sep 17, 2016 23:05
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Race Realists posted:I keep think back to a few years ago when the Voting Rights Act got gutted. Now all I see is widespread accounts of voter suppression in mostly southern rural areas in America I'm not arguing that violent anti-immigrant right-wing rhetoric isn't on the rise in Europe, because it is, dangerously so. I'm arguing that even with the Levantine catastrophe and the resulting flood of refugees, the total number of immigrants in Europe is really drat low in comparison to total population. And pardon my bluntness, but even with the number of people coming in from Syria, there's only so many people who can show up before Syria runs out of people. It is very much a right-wing bullshit talking point that this is something that is going to completely overwhelm local populations and turn them into a minority, and it propagates to the idea that the refugees are an endless swarm of barbarians who only exist to produce a bunch of religiously indoctrinated male children to ship off elsewhere. my dad fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 23:28
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In my personal experience during my time as a Narrativist, there are moments when you get hit with a stunning burst of Narrative Dysphoria. That is to say that some element of your Inner Narrative is publicly and profoundly dis-proven. This experience is akin to an identity crises to a Narrativist and is incredibly unpleasent. It often leaves the Narrativist with only two options, either to (A) begin the process of shedding their Inner Narrative and leaving their delusions behind, or (B) retreating even deeper into the Inner Narrative, embracing it publicly, and pretending the burst of Narrative Dysphoria never happened. A surprising number of Narrativists will take option A in that situation (I have personally known over a dozen Narrativists that deprogrammed themselves over a period of years), but the majority will take option B. If however this burst of Narrative Dysphoria occurs at the same time that the Narrativist is on the losing end of a Compaction Cycle, then the ratios actually reverse a bit. More Narrativists will choose to leave behind the Inner Narrative than continue to cling to it in that particular situation. In my experience having a group of deluded morons that you thought were your friends throw you out of their weird little group over some imaginary bullshit is enough to snap most Narrativists out of it. It is not however, enough to snap every Narrativist out of it. Some Narrativists in that situation (burst of Narrative Dysphoria+losing end of a Compaction Cycle) will retreat deep, deep into the protective delusions of their Inner Narrative. In this state they will publicly lose touch with reality while beginning to speak as if some momentous event is imminent. They will become convinced that themselves and those they identify as their own are about to play a vital role in some earth changing drama. When a Narrativist takes that option, it looks a bit like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ONg7Qz7pTU Keep an eye on Glenn here, this is a nasty road to walk down with the public glare on you. I almost feel a twinge of sympathy for him, having walked down that particular path once myself. (It doesn't lead to any place that you want caught on video.) Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Sep 18, 2016 |
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Sep 18, 2016 02:37
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Prester Jane posted:It is not however, enough to snap every Narrativist out of it. Some Narrativists in that situation (burst of Narrative Dysphoria+losing end of a Compaction Cycle) will retreat deep, deep into the protective delusions of their Inner Narrative. In this state they will publicly lose touch with reality while beginning to speak as if some momentous event is imminent. They will become convinced that themselves and those they identify as their own are about to play a vital role in some earth changing drama. When a Narrativist takes that option, it looks a bit like this:
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Sep 18, 2016 07:02
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OwlFancier posted:Crossposting from UKMT: This is very much a thing. My (neo-nazi, Holocaust denier) father used to tell a story, which to him represented a great success, where he was speaking before a mostly-black audience and gave his whole spiel about how white people should intermarry and live with white people, and black people with black people, and a black woman in the audience stood up and exclaimed "That's just what my grandma used to say!" Similarly one of the only people who was willing to sit down and have a conversation with him among my mother's co-workers was a black professor, I think of sociology, who was sympathetic to black nationalist movements. He still disagreed with him about almost everything, of course, but most of the rest of the faculty wouldn't have even spoken to him. Don't underestimate people's tendency to want to see themselves as the good guys; it may be delusional but it can lead them to make unexpected compromises or alliances as they work out systems of self-justification.
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Sep 18, 2016 07:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This is very much a thing. My (neo-nazi, Holocaust denier) father used to tell a story, which to him represented a great success, where he was speaking before a mostly-black audience and gave his whole spiel about how white people should intermarry and live with white people, and black people with black people, and a black woman in the audience stood up and exclaimed "That's just what my grandma used to say!" Do I want to ask how your mother ended up with someone like that? Also, how did you turn out ok?
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Sep 18, 2016 13:37
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Defenestration posted:If so, in the eyes of whom? Glenn Beck is an adult convert to Mormomisn. Adult converts to anything tend to go all in. I think he thinks of himself as a prophet.
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Sep 18, 2016 14:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Don't underestimate people's tendency to want to see themselves as the good guys; it may be delusional but it can lead them to make unexpected compromises or alliances as they work out systems of self-justification. It doesn't strike me as a particularly strange alliance. Black nationalism was heavily rooted in Nation of Islam thought at the time, which said whites were inherently evil and thus to be avoided. The only practical implementations of such would be a "Back to Africa" movement and/or seeking a nation within the current borders of America, like the Mississippi Delta proposal. American Nazis are in a similar situation; they can't exactly (and don't necessarily wish to) just genocide all the various groups they'd rather not live amongst, so any that want to leave multicultural society on their own become natural allies. You see a similar thing with anti-Asian racists not particularly minding Japan, since Japan is so insular. It's a phenomenon where narrativists subscribing to slightly different narratives find the things they agree on and work together to achieve them; simple politics. Plus, I've joked before that of course white and black nationalists have plenty of common ground in divvying up North America; it's not like the land belongs to either anyway. The Mississippi Delta proposal and so on is "playing with house money" as it were.
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Sep 18, 2016 18:29
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It's a little more complicated than that. IIRC some people within the civil rights movement preferred dealing with open racists and Nazis among white Americans because they were honest about their beliefs - a much larger group of whites may not have been openly hostile to the civil rights movement but represented a critical mass of indifference/low-level hostility by which the status quo could endure.
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Sep 18, 2016 21:12
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the jizz taxi posted:It's a little more complicated than that. IIRC some people within the civil rights movement preferred dealing with open racists and Nazis among white Americans because they were honest about their beliefs - a much larger group of whites may not have been openly hostile to the civil rights movement but represented a critical mass of indifference/low-level hostility by which the status quo could endure. Martin Luther King posted:I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
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Sep 18, 2016 23:57
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Defenestration posted:How does this fit in with Beck's recent public (apparent) change of heart about some of the more horrible things he's thought in the past? e.g. saying that "Black Lives Matter has a point you guys"? Is he trying to redeem himself? If so, in the eyes of whom? The convenient change of heart that Beck has had towards BLM and the like is more a cynical ploy to shore up his sagging audience numbers than anything else. Beck is trying to sound mature and reasonable in a bid to appeal to the portion of conservatives that are quietly horrified at what has occurred here. Let me explain in a bit more detail. Glenn Beck is a Narrativist true believer, one that has bought into his personal Inner Narrative so deeply thaqt he can justify almost anything to himself so long as he believes it is in accordance with serving the goals of his Inner Narrative. So Beck is knowingly a manipulative figure in the Conservative movement, but one who despite that believes himself to be a good person doing hard things in service of the greater good. Prior to the appearance of Trump on the scene Beck had carved a powerful niche out for himself as a fringey truth-sayer who had no fear of speaking truth to power. Beck had accomplished this goal largely by putting forth Outer Narrative's that were (generally speaking) somewhat more Compacted than broader Right Wing Media was. Please allow me to take a moment to explain the concept of Compacted here. Remember that being a part of a Compaction Cycle (prevailing or defeated, side does not matter) is a stressful experience that drives the Narrativist deeper into their Inner Narrative. This causes the Narrativist to develop their Inner Narrative into a more complex/complete form. As a Narrativist invests themselves more and more into developing their Inner Narrative the familiar 4-tiered format of the Grand Narrative (God-Force, The Chosen, The Sheep, The Enemy) will inevitably appear. Think of the Grand Narrative as a sort of basic format that the Inner Narrative will take, a set of hooks that you could hang any Inner Narrative on. So the more Compaction Cycles a Narrativist experiences, the more developed their Inner Narrative becomes, which inevitably leads to the Inner Narrative conforming more and more with the basic framework of the Grand Narrative. As the conceptual confines of the Grand Narrative are embraced, the Narrativist is compelled to more extreme forms of anti-social behavior, until at the highest levels the Narrativist feels morally justified in committing acts of violence. Think of Compaction as a scale from 1-10, with 1 being the lowest level of Compaction and 10 being the point at which there is a strong compulsion to engage in acts of violence. As a Narrativist experiences more Compaction Cycles, the Compaction of their Inner Narrative increases. Put a Narrativist through enough Compaction Cycles and eventually they will experience a strong compulsion to commit acts of violence. I must specify here that just because a Narrativist reaches a 10 on my hypothetical scale it does not mean they will become violent, rather it means that they feel morally justified and obligated to commit acts of violence. Whether they engage in those acts depends mostly on a combination of two factions: 1.) how much social stability is there in the community in which the Narrativist resides, and 2.) how much encouragement the Narrativist is receiving from communicating with other Narrativists who are at a similar level of Compaction. The fewer the total number of Narrativists in society means more Compaction Cycles are required before a lone Narrativist reaches a sufficient level of Compaction where violent behavior becomes a serious possibility. Similarly the better the social stability the Narrativist experiences in their environment the greater the number of Compaction Cycles are required before violent behavior becomes a serious risk. On the flip side of this the more Narrativists you have and the lower the social stability they experience the fewer overall Compaction Cycles that are required before violent behavior becomes a serious possibility. Put enough Narrativists experiencing Compaction Cycles into a low social stability situation (say hypothetically the Middle East) and violent behavior becomes an inevitability, as does the appearance of Narrativist groups who unite around a messianic figure that manages to satisfy the Inner Narratives of his adherents. Thus in a stable society with few Narrativists you only rarely see a Narrativist reach sufficient Compaction to become violent, such individuals being seemingly random with nothing in common save bizarre beliefs and a history of being rejected (losing side of Compaction Cycles) from various groups. (I am arguing that the "lone nut" type suggested here is the result of a Narrativist that is also socially dysfunctional being repeatedly Compacted out of groups until as a result of embracing thier Inner Narrative ever more deeply they become violent.) Conversely in large swaths of the Middle East you get no end of violent Narrativist groups cropping up constantly as a result of existing conditions which favor both Compaction and the development of large numbers of resident Narrativists. **As an aside, in light of this analysis I would like to make a quick note on my prediction of violence in the wake of Trump losing the Presidency. My current conclusion is that the United States at present has high social stability along with high numbers of Narrativists sufficiently Compacted to feel compelled to engage in acts of violence. As a result of this mix I expect few overall numbers of actually violent Narrativists to appear, perhaps a few thousand at absolute most but probably not more than 500 or so total. I expect that the numbers of potentially violent Narrativists will deteriorate rapidly once a few more humiliating losses ala Malheur have occurred. So to summarize then, Compaction is the process via which Inner Narratives gradually evolve into a form that justifies violence, and the Compaction Cycle is what drives the development of an Inner Narrative. Additionally, as an Inner Narrative becomes more Compacted the structural format of the Grand Narrative becomes more readily apparent. Returning finally to our good friend Glenn Beck, he had carved out a niche for himself as a fringe truth teller by offering Outer Narratives that were generally more Compacted than what was available in broader Right Wing Media. However, as a result of the massive Compaction Cycles that are driving Trumpism, Glenn Beck is actually offering Outer Narratives that are generally less Compacted than what is available in broader Right Wing Media. So now Beck is trying to appeal to the disenfranchised moderates who have been left behind by the wave of ever rising Compaction that is sweeping through the Conservative base at present. Basically Beck is trying to expand his audience and because he can't do so by offering Outer Narrative's that are more extreme than the average he is trying to attract new listeners by offerieng Outer Narrative's that are less extreme than Trumpism. TLDR: Its a cynical ploy, but the context around the cynical ploy makes it interesting.
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Sep 19, 2016 00:10
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Beck has been falling out of favor among wingnuts for a while, so he really thinks that this weak act will bring in the ones swept up in Trumpmentum without actually believing in it back after he falls? What I want to know is after the glorious Orange One fails, will his jilted supporters be ready to line up behind someone less horrible? I mean, they'll have an obvious evil liberal enemy to rage at and a "stolen" election to avenge, but I can't see them wanting to return to something less blatantly authoritarian than Trump's preaching. When you get oppressed by the "reasonable" white people as much as the monsters, I can see how the honesty of their hostility would be almost refreshing.
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Sep 19, 2016 00:28
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Prester Jane posted:(I am arguing that the "lone nut" type suggested here is the result of a Narrativist that is also socially dysfunctional being repeatedly Compacted out of groups until as a result of embracing thier Inner Narrative ever more deeply they become violent.) If I'm understanding you correctly, then Narrativists who experience a sufficient number of compaction cycles (whether they remain in the in-group or get kicked out) pretty much always wind up with the potential to become violent nutjobs unless something breaks the spell.
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Sep 19, 2016 00:44
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I wanted to pull up this old post from March of 2015 where I first tried to describe and predict the eventual outcome of the current Narrative Convergence. I feel that we are at present very close to the predicted endpoint of the four Narrativist Clusters all believing that we are on the verge of civil war. This idea of being on the verge of pending violence is being discussed quite widely in Narrativist circles at present, as I will demonstrate shortly. ****(Note: This post originates from when I was still using "Authoritarians" instead of the now accepted "Narrativist".)Prester Jane posted:I think so, yes. At least, once I have been able to fully articulate my ideas, I think they predict trends fairly well. Let us consider for a moment "Narrative Convergence" and the Inner Narrative of several easily identified Authoritarian group clusters. (Obviously there are exceptions to every group cluster, these are broad trends, not perfect descriptions of every single person involved in such groups.) I feel that once the Inner Narrative's of various groups are understood it becomes very easy to see where common ground will be found between these groups. Through the Compaction Cycle as well as the need for allies, alliances will be forged as Narrative's Converge around the outlines of the Grand Narrative. The idea I was trying to communicate with the above was that the various Narrativist Clusters would all eventually agree with each other on certain themes filling a specific "Good vs Evil" format, this agreement with each other being the result of Narrativists reaching out to each other through the intentional construction of new Outer Narrative's designed to appeal to other Narrativists, a phenomenon that occurs en mass in Narrativist Clusters when their is a perceived threat to the Narrative itself in conjunction with an ongoing state of Narrative Dysphoria (which itself is the driving force behind Compaction Cycles). To better communicate what I was trying to communicate at the time I wrote the above I will use some of the terminology I have invented since then to describe the situation that existed at that point in time. The most important thing to keep in mind is that I wrote this about 3 months prior to the Obergefell decision, so let me summarize the situation with regards to the state of the four Narrativist Clusters at that point in time. All four of the Narrativist Clusters were in a state of prolonged Narrative Dysphoria more or less as a result of Barack Obama turning out to be a pretty decent President. Whether it was the Racist Cluster (obvious reasons), the Economic Cluster (the economy improved substantially), the Paranoid Cluster (Obama never enacted Agenda 21) or the Religious Cluster (steady loss of the culture wars), each of them had a reason to feel that their Inner Narrative was in conflict with observable reality. As you recall, Narrative Dysphoria is what I call the stress caused by the cognitive dissonance a Narrativist experiences when their Inner Narrative conflicts with observable reality, and it is this conflict (specifically its psychological need for resolution) that is the driving force behind Compaction Cycles. So as a result of a prolonged state of Narrative Dysphoria, the four Narrativist Clusters in the United States were already experiencing observable broad spectrum Compaction Cycles. Into this volatile mix a sudden shock of severe Narrative Dysphoria was about to introduced into the Religious Cluster via the Obergefell decision. Since the legalization of Gay Marriage has for decades been associated in the minds of Religious Cluster Narrativists with a 100% sign of the impending end times, the Obergefell decision represented an outsized burst of Narrative Dysphoria. Not just the decision itself would generate Narrative Dysphoria by revealing to the Religious Cluster just how profoundly it had lost the culture wars, but most importantly the lack of God actually showing his displeasure by judging America in some way/the end times actually starting represented an ongoing threat to the validity of the Inner Narrative of much of the Religious Cluster. After all if God won;t show himself in the face of this kind of blatant defiance of His Perfect Will, then perhaps he really does not exist.... When I wrote teh above I expected that rather than face the painful introspection necessary to realize that you have been duped by shysters looking to manipulate you, the Religious Cluster would react in the collective by constructing new apocalupse themed Outer Narratives to attract more Narrativists to their cause. I believed that this would resonate with the other Clusters because of their ongoing Narrative Dysphoria, giving the most Compacted Narrativists an outsized voice and enabling them to drive Compaction Cycles at an accelerated rate within their respective Cluster groups. I called this collective process of Compacting "Narrative Convergence", as I anticipated that as (explained above) more Compaction Cycles occurred, the outlines of the Grand Narrative would become more readily apparent as well as the four Clusters shifting their Outer Narratives to be ever more reflective of larger numbers of Narrativists reaching sufficient Compaction whereby they feel compelled to commit violent acts. In short I expected the Religious Cluster to react to Obergefell with a burst of new Apocalypse themed Outer Narratives that would resonate within the other three clusters, driving all the Clusters towards greater Compaction. As luck would have it this entire process was amplified by the reaction to the Charlotte shootings, the taking down of the Confederate Flag represented a shock of Narrative Dysphoria to the Inner Narrative of the racist Cluster resulting in two separate Clusters suddenly upping their output of apocalypse themed Outer Narrative's. This had the overall effect of increasing the impact this ahd on the other two Clusters, which in turn has directly fed into the rise of Trumpism.
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Sep 19, 2016 01:00
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Hello Sailor posted:If I'm understanding you correctly, then Narrativists who experience a sufficient number of compaction cycles (whether they remain in the in-group or get kicked out) pretty much always wind up with the potential to become violent nutjobs unless something breaks the spell. That is correct, a Compaction Cycle drives both sides to more closely embrace their Inner Narrative as a way of resolving any negative feelings over what they just participated in. As a result both sides become a little bit more extreme (or Compacted) every time they participate in a Compaction Cycle. For certain individuals (ala David Fry) you could consider them SuperCompactors, and they are individuals whom are Narrativists in addition to having some sort of social dysfunction. When they join a Narrativist Group they often find themselves on the losing end of a Compaction Cycle because of their erratic behavior. (Behavior which is often a mixture of regular douchebaggery in conjunction with taking their Inner Narrative really seriously and trying to live it out in ways that make even other Narrativists uncomfortable.) A SuperCompactor then is the Narrativist type most likely to become violent in an environment with relatively strong social stability. Note: Most SuperCompactors do not become violent in a society that is as as stable as the US is, but they do represent an ongoing potential for violence once they have reached a certain level of Compaction. For what its worth, I would have been a SuperCompactor during my time as a Narrativist. My combination of Narrativism and undiagnosed schizophrenia caused me yo embrace my Inner Narrative in a way that made even other Narrativists uncomfortable, often resulting in my being forced out of a Narrativist group. (I was often pushing these groups towards more extreme public displays of our collective Inner Narrative than they were comfortable with.) Whenever this happened I would justify it somehow through my Inner Narrative, become even more deeply entrenched in my fantasies, and eventually find another Narrativist group (often one even more Compacted than the last) to join. The cycle would then rinse and repeat. As a result I become more Compacted, while also participating in increasing the overall Compaction of the Narrativist groups that forced me out because of my behavior. In my own personal case it was when I had reached the level of Compaction where violent actions felt justified that it served as a sort of wake up call and I checked myself into treatment and disconnected myself from all Narrativist media outlets like Prison Planet.
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Sep 19, 2016 01:14
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Good to have you back, Prester Jane  Also if you ever do collect these musings for a book or something, I would suggest culling the Capital Letter Terms, it can be hard to keep track of all of them and it makes it seem like you're talking in code sometimes.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:17
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ManlyGrunting posted:Good to have you back, Prester Jane In the rewrite I am working on (that I intend to publish as a blog) it is presentlyu structured in such a way that it defines each yrtm and gives a detailed discussion of its meaning and (whereever possible) video examples of what I am talking about. After that though it drops the custom of always capitalizing my terms so instead of "Compaction Cycle" I just simply write "compaction cycle", I am hoping that will break up some of the codelike qualities of my writing. Hopefully I can avoid coming off as a political version of the Hypercube guy.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:33
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Jack Gladney posted:Do I want to ask how your mother ended up with someone like that? Also, how did you turn out ok? I've never been able to get a solid handle on what she actually believes politically, to be honest. As to your second question -- slowly, painfully, and some people might say not okay enough. I'm not a nazi and I describe myself as left wing or a socialist when asked, but a lot of my secondary assumptions about media and culture and so on are colored by how I was raised; even an inversion or refusal of old beliefs are still affected by them.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:47
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In light of what I have discussed in the last few posts I would like to now post this video of sitting GOP Governor Matt Bevin. It is my contention that what we are seeing here is a result of the circle that Bevin runs in being overrun by sufficiently Compacted Narrativists that he now feels secure in discussing the violence his Inner Narrative is calling for in such a thinly veiled method. Bevin is responding to his perception of the general mood of the country, a perception created by immersing yourself in Narrativist dominated circles if a very high Compaction level. As a result Bevin thinls he is speaking real truth that will seem prophetic very shortly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlukBB3Hn1g
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Sep 19, 2016 04:01
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The compaction cycle to violence ratio interests me. A couple of historians of the Einzsatzgruppen used criminologist Lonnie Athens theory of violent socialisation (which he called violentization) to try to explain why they were made up of ordinary police squads, and it's interesting to speculate how that socialisation might accelerate or promote more/faster compaction cycles, or even create new Narrativists by association. One of the curiosities of the subject is how frequently perpetrators claimed that it was some kind of 'phase' and they no longer believed the same things or portrayed their involvement as just a job, and other similar things, just like Outer and Inner Narratives. Another point of interest about violentization are those psychological steps of justification being about protection of oneself or loved ones as a qualification for violent performance, and how that relates to compaction and the cognitive dissonance driving it.
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Sep 19, 2016 09:55
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What a relief it is to see new posts in the thread and it's actually PJ, and not some dimbulb with their leg caught in a Fishmech argument. I don't want to put you on the spot PJ, but fwiw what do you think will happen when Trump loses the election? How long can these compaction cycles sustain themselves?
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Sep 19, 2016 11:18
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Why do Narrativists need to appeal to others by changing the outer narrative at all?
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Sep 19, 2016 12:18
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I don't think they intend the outer narratives to appeal to anyone, or even to stand up to examination at all. They use them more as a shield to brush off anyone who doesn't "get it", and/or as a dog-whistle to others of like mind.
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Sep 19, 2016 13:14
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Facehammer posted:I don't think they intend the outer narratives to appeal to anyone, or even to stand up to examination at all. They use them more as a shield to brush off anyone who doesn't "get it", and/or as a dog-whistle to others of like mind. Well, to an extent "intent" is irrelevant with folks caught up in all this; these aren't consciously deliberated positions, they're sets of primal reactions strung together with ideology.
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Sep 19, 2016 13:23
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VanSandman posted:Why do Narrativists need to appeal to others by changing the outer narrative at all? Plus, the outside world is going to intrude on you at some point--a dramatic example being the Little Rock Crisis. When incidents like that eventually occur, no one is going to have sympathy for you if you say "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." So you have to employ an shifting series of euphemisms complaining about Big Government. Also, I think a lot of things that end up being incorporated into the dirty, sticky membrane of the Outer Narrative are not things that Narrativists came up with themselves, but memes that were aimed at them by somewhat more rational people who wanted to court them. "Welfare queen," for example. I don't think Southern racists learned to disguise racism with a veneer of libertarianism themselves.
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Sep 19, 2016 14:13
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VanSandman posted:Why do Narrativists need to appeal to others by changing the outer narrative at all? Sometimes Narrativists have narcissist tendencies or similar emotional dependencies, so changing that outer narrative helps them get the validation/adulation/agreement they need. Other times the outer narrative is a layer of lubrication between their inner narrative and reality, so adjustments allow them to keep telling themselves they are still doing the right thing. It's not always for "public consumption" as it were.
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Sep 19, 2016 16:42
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Also humans crave validation, even ones with severely abnormal ways of thinking. efb ^
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Sep 19, 2016 16:44
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Here's a question I've been wondering lately: Is narrativism anti-democratic, or is democracy anti-narrativist? Like, I don't doubt there was once a point in history when compaction cycles were the path to power in lots of instances, but compaction cycles only work by immediately shedding anywhere from 20 to 50% of your total group size. You might gets lots of power and assurance for it in return, but at the end of the day there is still less overall in that particular structure. In the game of democracy, where the most votes matter, this is strictly the worst possible thing you can do. So is it necessarily narrativism's fault that they at least appear to be anti-democratic in nature? (This is where democracy is anti-narrativist.) Granted, I know it's said that compaction cycles happen over and over, each cycle giving more baggage to be held both by people who remain and to people who were cast out. The outcasts might get on with their lives and join some other group or organization to form their social life, but they're still affected by the stress of the last compaction cycle and being on the losing end of it. This can generate a lot of negativity in the aggregate. It's a question to me now if a democratic system can necessarily survive that much negative feeling. (This is where narrativism is anti-democratic, or at least threatening to the social balance which democratic polities require.)
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Sep 19, 2016 18:51
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